638 replies to this topic

[Disgrace]

From Motorsport.com:

Brian Barnhart, strategist for Rossi, shared that they did opt to short-fill his driver on lap 201. Rossi was running eighth on the final lap before the incident left him 15th.
“We definitely had a fuel issue on the thing,” Barnhart said. “I tried to minimize time on pit road.
“Now, whether we didn’t get enough fuel in it or if the fuel there shifted, we obviously didn’t have enough to finish and we tried to back him down about the last four laps and ran completely out coming out of Turn 2.”
And Rossi was unaware of the fuel problem until there were a handful of laps remaining.
“I was not told at any point that we were in a fuel situation until like four to go, so it was a surprise to me,” Rossi said.
“We had to go into a pretty crazy save mode there at the end. I think we were going to get there, but unfortunately there was an incident when I was beginning to lose fuel out of Turn 2 and it ended our day.
“I am just hoping Sting Ray is okay at this point.”

Not good from McLaren and for a while Brian Barnhart hasn’t ‘cut the mustard’. Rossi drove yet another professional race and again it was ruined by Brian on the pit wall and McLaren screwing up. O Ward is driving the wheels of his car and is an extraordinary talent but McLaren has got to tighten up this organisation. An organisation of this magnitude should not be making the mistakes it does

 

That's incredible. Rossi could probably have easily made the fuel number over a stint. But not if his strategist keeps him in the dark and prays for a yellow until it's way too late. This would never happen at Ganassi.

[Dolph]

Isn't the real story that they only knew about being short when the fuel alarm went off and they only then knew to start massive fuel save. There's no reason we must portray the events as if the team were hiding anything from the driver, when a perfectly good explanation is available.

 

I feel like we have been thoroughly through this set of circumstanced last year in Toronto.

 

Anywhoo:

 

Edited by Dolph, 15 July 2024 - 15:17.

[jcbc3]

This. There's a lot of criticism about of Carpenter and particularly Rossi, two drivers with considerably more experience than Robb. The two may simply have been wondering about Foyt's spotters or the like. Not hitting what's in front of you is fundamental to driving any vehicle.

 

I don't think the last sentence is fair. I can point to countless times where experienced heroes of ours have hit another car from behind, because it suddenly slowed. 

[Muppetmad]

It sounds like there were breakdowns of communication on multiple fronts. Quite simply, though, Robb is not at fault. McLaren underfuelling Rossi is their problem, and it's their (and I include Rossi in this) responsibility first and foremost to mitigate it in order to reduce the risk of an incident on track.

[red stick]

I'll concur that there were communications issues all around.  But a slowing car due to fuel issues at the end of a race is not uncommon.  I keep reading commentary, perhaps informed, perhaps not, that Rossi had some responsibility to be somewhere else on the track at the time the incident occurred.  I haven't driven an unpowered race car on a track with marbles, but I suspect Rossi was doing all he could to manage the situation.  Let he who has driven in such a situation cast the first stone. 

Edited by red stick, 15 July 2024 - 16:52.

[Disgrace]

Yeah, changing his line might not have necessarily helped, say if the car behind tries to overtake on that inside line.

[BoDarvelle]

I don't think the last sentence is fair. I can point to countless times where experienced heroes of ours have hit another car from behind, because it suddenly slowed. 

 

Running out of gas at 180mph is little different than brake checking a guy at that speed. Coming off the corner it's not like Stingray could just cut it left.

[andysaint]

If you are racing at 180mph on an oval you would usually expect a car to be on the line. If Rossi is driving offline that brings further risks I.e. finding a car where you do not expect to find it and potentially taking avoiding action into a fast lane. Not only that you don’t want Rossi to lose control by going off line. It’s not as simple as saying to Rossi pick another line in the last 4 laps considering he has driven nigh on 500 racing laps on a line and as the lap time is less than 20 secs to effectively be given less than 80 secs to decide what is going on why it’s going on and to take action in the middle of racing other cars and trying to get to the finish on a very hot day.

I don’t think String Ray is at fault. That pace on an oval it must be very difficult to judge closing speeds at such a short time frame.

I don’t think Rossi is at fault due to my explanation above.

I do think McLaren is to blame; they have at times this year been a shambles considering the organisation they are. As I’ve said before O Ward is putting them places they don’t deserve to be.

I’d be interested to see what communication found its way to AJ Foyt and Foyt to Sting Way

[loki]

I’ve driven an underpowered race car in the marbles.  It’s not easy and there’s a good chance of stuffing it into the wall.  I’ve also come up on someone slowing well below the racing speed as well as slowed below the racing speed on the line in traffic.  Depending on the situation the contact can be unavoidable.  These were also series where you had to have enough fuel left to test even if some had spec fuel.  Run it too dry it’s a DQ.  Cruising on the racing line well off speed is a mortal sin unless you just broke or are on fire.  Running out of fuel is not a mechanical.  When you start to run out you know before you go dry.  He kept his foot in it hoping he could finish the lap rather than pull down.

 

 

[Frood]

Aren't those 204 mostly related to pitstops, or thats the actual on track passing number?

Possibly related to pitstops on both counts. Autosport claims the number for on-track passes was 379 last year and 95 this year. That article also features a glowing review of the race from Palou: "The most boring thing I've ever done"

[ANF]

And they had to do it twice!

[loki]

If you are racing at 180mph on an oval you would usually expect a car to be on the line. If Rossi is driving offline that brings further risks I.e. finding a car where you do not expect to find it and potentially taking avoiding action into a fast lane. Not only that you don’t want Rossi to lose control by going off line. It’s not as simple as saying to Rossi pick another line in the last 4 laps considering he has driven nigh on 500 racing laps on a line and as the lap time is less than 20 secs to effectively be given less than 80 secs to decide what is going on why it’s going on and to take action in the middle of racing other cars and trying to get to the finish on a very hot day.

I don’t think String Ray is at fault. That pace on an oval it must be very difficult to judge closing speeds at such a short time frame.

I don’t think Rossi is at fault due to my explanation above.

I do think McLaren is to blame; they have at times this year been a shambles considering the organisation they are. As I’ve said before O Ward is putting them places they don’t deserve to be.

I’d be interested to see what communication found its way to AJ Foyt and Foyt to Sting Way

 

Rossi would have known before he slowed that much.  He may have known going into one.  We’d have to listen to the in car to see when it first sputtered.  They may have made it with another half gallon or so.  They purposely made a decision on strategy and created an unsafe condition when it didn’t work.

[red stick]

I’ve driven an underpowered race car in the marbles.  It’s not easy and there’s a good chance of stuffing it into the wall.  I’ve also come up on someone slowing well below the racing speed as well as slowed below the racing speed on the line in traffic.  Depending on the situation the contact can be unavoidable.  These were also series where you had to have enough fuel left to test even if some had spec fuel.  Run it too dry it’s a DQ.  Cruising on the racing line well off speed is a mortal sin unless you just broke or are on fire.  Running out of fuel is not a mechanical.  When you start to run out you know before you go dry.  He kept his foot in it hoping he could finish the lap rather than pull down.

There we go.

[jonpollak]

Yep, this is a Racing 101.
The onus is on the stricken car not to impede faster traffic.

Jp

[Anja]

Possibly related to pitstops on both counts. Autosport claims the number for on-track passes was 379 last year and 95 this year. That article also features a glowing review of the race from Palou: "The most boring thing I've ever done"

 

Perfect timing for the new extension deal, eh? I hope they're already thinking about how to improve it next year.

Edited by Anja, 15 July 2024 - 18:14.

[andysaint]

Rossi would have known before he slowed that much. He may have known going into one. We’d have to listen to the in car to see when it first sputtered. They may have made it with another half gallon or so. They purposely made a decision on strategy and created an unsafe condition when it didn’t work.

The Rossi example is quite an extreme example. But I point out that all teams are running things as extreme as they can get away with, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t. They need to understand what happened at McLaren to get it so badly wrong but it is not uncommon to see cars slowing at the end or stopping after the flag has come down as is the nature of the series and the rules. I’m not sure team or driver knowing they were in that situation would have done much differently. There is no sign of issues with breaking any rules and considering the laps left anyone I imagine would have kept going to get the result. It really is not easy especially on short track ovals to merely get out of the way without parking the car with so much traffic and marbles. If the series was concerned about the problem, they’d mandate that every car has to finish with a set amount of fuel in the car but they won’t. Or they could black and orange flag a car but they won’t do that either.

[jonpollak]

For a limited time only ….
Get your #thirsty3’s tee shirt today !!!



Jp

[Jim Thurman]

I haven't driven an unpowered race car on a track with marbles, but I suspect Rossi was doing all he could to manage the situation.  Let he who has driven in such a situation cast the first stone. 

While the part about casting the first stone is sage advice, particularly because as always - internet, but I don't have to have done so, because I've followed racing long enough to realize it is precisely as loki (EDIT: and jp) put it. Spot on about the some commentary being uninformed though.

 

Better advice would be to tell folks on the internet not to instantaneously throw stones, throw so many or throw them based on who is involved or going along with a crowd.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 15 July 2024 - 19:08.

[loki]

The Rossi example is quite an extreme example. But I point out that all teams are running things as extreme as they can get away with, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t. They need to understand what happened at McLaren to get it so badly wrong but it is not uncommon to see cars slowing at the end or stopping after the flag has come down as is the nature of the series and the rules. I’m not sure team or driver knowing they were in that situation would have done much differently. There is no sign of issues with breaking any rules and considering the laps left anyone I imagine would have kept going to get the result. It really is not easy especially on short track ovals to merely get out of the way without parking the car with so much traffic and marbles. If the series was concerned about the problem, they’d mandate that every car has to finish with a set amount of fuel in the car but they won’t. Or they could black and orange flag a car but they won’t do that either.

He would have known well before then he wasn’t going to make it.  While either hoping for a yellow or thinking he may make it he and the team purposely put the car in a dangerous situation.   Whatever the reason the outcome is the same.  That’s racing but to put this on Robb and excuse McLaren is wide of the mark.

[red stick]

So.
We're back to effin' Brian Barnhart. Plus ca change . . .

[FLB]

So.
We're back to effin' Brian Barnhart. Plus ca change . . .

I keep replaying the ending of the 2010 Indy 500 in my head since yesterday.

Edited by FLB, 15 July 2024 - 22:52.

[amerikalei]

I keep replaying then ending of the 2010 Indy 500 in my head since yesterday.

Me too:

"Conway was airlifted to nearby Methodist Hospital with a broken lower left leg.^[28] Of the crash, Hunter-Reay said, "I'm sorry Mike is hurt... It was totally uncalled for. We weren't going to make it anyway. When you run out of fuel in these cars, it's like hitting the brakes. In hindsight, we should have stopped for fuel.""

[red stick]

FWIW, Carpenter on the Robb accident.

 

 

When asked whether Rossi held fault in the incident — beyond the team failing to give him enough fuel to get to the end — Carpenter said he found Kirkwood’s sentiments ["I don’t understand why he was still on-line"] unrealistic.

“Everyone was so spread out here. I could see (Rossi) coming back to us for laps. I’d given up passing Sting Ray just to bring it to the finish, and it all should’ve worked out with enough space and timing,” Carpenter said. “I saw a car get off-line yesterday under a yellow flag and almost crash.

“So for someone to say (Rossi) should’ve been off-line, no. Because you’ll crash. That’s how ridiculous it is to drive these cars here. If you’re not on-line, you’re screwed.”

 

It appears no one was a fan of where they had to place the car Sunday.*

 

https://www.indystar...od/74403721007/

 

 

 

*Offered for informational purposes only as the observations of one of the participants.  Not designed to reopen any arguments, place any blame on Robb, or excuse McLaren for leaving a slow car on the track.  Poster has still not driven a race car on a track with marbles, and does not and, indeed cannot offer any useful personal expertise.  Void where prohibited.

Edited by red stick, 16 July 2024 - 02:57.

[Peat]

My greivance with Rossi in particular is/was his "I don't know what happened" schtick as if slowing down in a place where you're expected to speed up was not the obvious cause of "what happened". He's been around the block enough times, so i deduce that he was willfully misleading (and smiling while doing so

 ).

I would assume Robb was also aware that Rossi was turning slow laps, he would have been catching him at a rate and planning where to pass. It was the last lap, he was going for it. I am not about to blame him for accelerating out of T2 to get past a slow car who suddenly slowed EVEN more. 



 

Edited by Peat, 16 July 2024 - 14:28.

[red stick]

FWIW, Kirkwood has amended his remarks about the closing lap.  Usual disclaimers. 

 

https://www.motorspo...shunt/10635083/

Edited by red stick, 16 July 2024 - 16:42.

[andysaint]

Sensible remarks from Kirkwood.

Also an apology from Zak on Rossi’s post:

“Sorry it was our mistake. Glad everyone is ok. On to Toronto”

[paulb]

Next race, ROOM TEMPERATURE NEW HYBRID TECH…

[red stick]

That sounds like volunteering . . .

[paulb]

That sounds like volunteering . . .

Only in the event of complete forum desperation.

[red stick]

Been there.

[loki]

Next race, ROOM TEMPERATURE NEW HYBRID TECH…

Like the beer at JP’s pub…

[Afterburner]

Next race, ROOM TEMPERATURE NEW HYBRID TECH…

COOL NEW HYBRID TECH

It’s destiny.

[krapmeister]

Like the beer at JP’s pub…

That would be CELLAR TEMPERATURE NEW HYBRID TECH

Edited by krapmeister, 17 July 2024 - 03:46.

[jonpollak]

Re: The Old Oak in Reigate.
Strangely enough all the Lager is cold and all the ‘beer’ is Vroom Temperature.

Jp

[red stick]

TBH, that was a half-hearted like.  Purveyors of dad jokes united, etc.  

[red stick]

Why Iowa sucked: one lane, limited tire degradation, which we knew, but Nathan Brown explores multiple perspectives.

https://www.indystar...25/74369203007/

[red stick]

Pruett reviews Iowa, with critical eye to race administration.
https://racer.com/20...brid-oval-race/

[Jim Thurman]

Pruett reviews Iowa, with critical eye to race administration.
https://racer.com/20...brid-oval-race/

Getting serious USAC-like vibes from the penalty enforcement issues 

[red stick]

Highlights from the latest Off Track with Hinch & Rossi:

1.  Brian Barnhart has nothing to do with how much fuel is in the car.

2.  The deg was non-existent enough at Iowa that is was theoretically possible to do a fuel only stop.

3.  Fuel feed in IndyCars is not like in street cars.  There is no sputtering--you either have fuel or you don't, and you find out too quickly and too late.  

Edited by red stick, 18 July 2024 - 14:15.