115 replies to this topic

[RekF1]

He talks about Max, Horner, Cost Cap, Horner, racing integrity, Horner, the toxicity of McLaren when he arrived, and he also briefly mentions Horner.

“But to have Christian come on the radio and actually squarely point the problem at Lando – who are you kidding? Everyone has seen it. The regulations are very clear – you’ve got to leave a car’s width. He didn’t. Why did he have to say anything? It just felt wholly inappropriate.”

https://www.independ...n-b2581287.html

[AlexPrime]

Sigh...

[Ivanhoe]

I think Brown would do better focusing on his own drivers and team operations. A lot of negative energy wasted.

[DW46]

He’s not wrong on a lot of it but jeez man, swings and roundabouts. Get over it. Move on. We’ve had a full race since then.

[Muppetmad]

I've made my feelings clear on Horner's leadership of Red Bull over the years, but I don't think Brown is exactly the right person to be lecturing anybody about "integrity" and "trust" right now, given McLaren's treatment of Pourchaire in IndyCar.

[AlexPrime]

He’s not wrong on a lot of it but jeez man, swings and roundabouts. Get over it. Move on. We’ve had a full race since then.

Besides, the mistakes made during the British GP should be more concerning to McLaren than the one off hit in Austria - next race Max was IMO even too nice to Lando on track.

[Beri]

Am I the only one thinking Brown is a clown? I'm fed up with him for a long time already. And despite McLarens upturn, I can't shake the feeling it isn't even because of him that McLaren finally is back where they belong; on the winning front.

[Secretariat]

The cost cap stuff he is right, and if he continues to offer reminders, that is fine with me. Pride in the organizational changes at McLaren is something to show some pride in. Some of the other stuff Brown is talking about is tiresome, but it is more or less gamesmanship.  

Edited by Secretariat, 17 July 2024 - 19:22.

[MikeTekRacing]

The cost cap stuff he is right, and if he continues to offer reminders, that is fine with me. Pride in the organizational changes at McLaren is something to show some pride in. Some of the other stuff Brown is talking about is tiresome, but it is more or less gamesmanship.  

is is fair to remind him of how Mclaren were excluded from a championship for cheating? 

 

Brown seems to be too focused on what Red Bull is doing. From his "lots of resumes from other people wanting to leave Red Bull" to constantly be focused on how they manage Max. 

In the mean time, he led a team that had the best-tied best car for several races in the row and has 1 race win to show for it. 

[RekF1]

Am I the only one thinking Brown is a clown? I'm fed up with him for a long time already. And despite McLarens upturn, I can't shake the feeling it isn't even because of him that McLaren finally is back where they belong; on the winning front.

I used to think he was biting off more than he could chew, but he's made them a genuine threat in multiple racing series.

I agree he's not afraid of making enemies which might come back to haunt him, but I think he's good at his job.

[FNG]

McLaren have thrown  a potential few wins away over the last 5 or 6 races. Concentrate on your own team

[Secretariat]

is is fair to remind him of how Mclaren were excluded from a championship for cheating? 

 

Brown seems to be too focused on what Red Bull is doing. From his "lots of resumes from other people wanting to leave Red Bull" to constantly be focused on how they manage Max. 

In the mean time, he led a team that had the best-tied best car for several races in the row and has 1 race win to show for it. 

Yes. However, given it was a different administration it renders it pointless in the context of the current figures. The rest of your post, I agree with.

[flymo]

These are just click-bait articles based on reporters asking Zak questions about Red Bull-related issues.  It's not like he's putting out press releases slagging Christian and Max.  He's not obsessed, there are just some reporters stirring this stuff up.  Nothing to see here.

[Sterzo]

These are just click-bait articles based on reporters asking Zak questions about Red Bull-related issues.  It's not like he's putting out press releases slagging Christian and Max.  He's not obsessed, there are just some reporters stirring this stuff up.  Nothing to see here.

And when you read what Brown actually said, as opposed to the headlines, it's all actually quite mild.

[RekF1]

And when you read what Brown actually said, as opposed to the headlines, it's all actually quite mild.

It's an exclusive interview. Did you read it? It's quite brutal.

[Sterzo]

It's an exclusive interview. Did you read it? It's quite brutal.

I have read it. Have a look at flymo's comment above. The journalists are the ones who raise issues and ask for comment. Yes, Brown is blunt, we know that, but they've obviously asked him about the cost cap issue. Do you disagree with what he said? I don't. And what's unusual about two team bosses backing their drivers in the squabbles over a collision? Nothing much to see here.

[Myrvold]

I've made my feelings clear on Horner's leadership of Red Bull over the years, but I don't think Brown is exactly the right person to be lecturing anybody about "integrity" and "trust" right now, given McLaren's treatment of Pourchaire in IndyCar.

 

I am still torn on Brown. I can't say I've noticed the "IndyCar-style" of handling things in McLaren F1, nor with United Autosport, and while United is just a minority-owner in Walkinshaw Andretti United in Supercars, it's nothing like this there either.

While I don't like Brown much, I am unable to decide how much of him there is in the decisions. Though, Siegel doing Le Mans and nothing more for United is a bit... odd. Then again, Rosenqvist drove for United at the Daytona 24hrs...

[MikeTekRacing]

I think he needs praise for turning Mclaren around. That is an incredible effort, done under his leadership.

None of us are without flaws, I wouldn't make a big fuss out of what he says. Rivals take shots at each other. He needs some strong results to back more arrogance, but it's a fair game.

[Dalton007]

RBR living rent-free in Zack's head. This will be music to Max and Christian's ears.

[ARTGP]

I am still torn on Brown. I can't say I've noticed the "IndyCar-style" of handling things in McLaren F1,

 

He signed Piastri while telling Ricciardo that he still had a contract. 

[MikeTekRacing]

Ricciardo knew he had a contract and refused (rightly so) to agree on ending it.

I doubt Zak went and told him his seat is fine. I am sure they were openly telling him they are disappointed by his performance

[ARTGP]

Ricciardo knew he had a contract and refused (rightly so) to agree on ending it.
I doubt Zak went and told him his seat is fine. I am sure they were openly telling him they are disappointed by his performance

F1's Daniel Ricciardo, McLaren differ on Oscar Piastri contract timeline - ESPN
 

On Friday, the contract recognition board verdict revealed that Piastri signed a two-year deal on July 4, a day after Ricciardo finished second to last at the British Grand Prix.

A source close to Ricciardo told ESPN: "To be clear, Daniel and his team did not know Oscar was signed when Daniel posted that statement on July 13th. At that point, there were discussions about Daniel's future, but more so in the event he wanted to exercise his opt out.
"The team continued to ask Daniel his plans for next year, I guess hoping his answer would eventually change, but he continued to make his intention to stay with the team known. It wasn't until Austria where he and his team were made aware the team was exploring other drivers for 2023."

Mclaren didn't have the "option" to excise Ricciardo. They just ripped up the contract and cleared the legal trouble with money. Ricc took it and left.

Edited by ARTGP, 17 July 2024 - 21:12.

[pacificquay]

And no-one can argue getting rid of Ricciardo was the wrong decision.

 

McLaren must be a competitive force again if a slagging off Zak thread is in full swing.

 

This forum has always been very anti-McLaren but it’s usually been generalised rather than aimed at an individual,

[DS27]

It's a good job McLaren as so squeaky clean

[Sterzo]

Mclaren didn't have the "option" to excise Ricciardo. They just ripped up the contract and cleared the legal trouble with money. Ricc took it and left.

That isn't ripping up the contract. Any employer or employee can end a working relationship; the contract means you have to settle financially. That's the law in the UK anyway. And it's what McLaren did.
 

[MikeTekRacing]

F1's Daniel Ricciardo, McLaren differ on Oscar Piastri contract timeline - ESPN
 



Mclaren didn't have the "option" to excise Ricciardo. They just ripped up the contract and cleared the legal trouble with money. Ricc took it and left.

that means business as usual. at no point did they tell Daniel his seat is safe.

They asked him about his plans for next year to have him want to move on - of course he did not.

They signed Oscar, of course again without Daniel knowing. That's not his problem. Then they dealt with breaking the contract with Daniel and exiting by paying whatever had to be paid.

[ARTGP]

That isn't ripping up the contract. Any employer or employee can end a working relationship; the contract means you have to settle financially. That's the law in the UK anyway. And it's what McLaren did.
 

 

That's the flowery way to express what Mclaren did.  I'm not arguing that they were wrong to pursue Piastri, but the original question was whether or not Mclaren's driver contract behaviour in Indycar was similar to how they treated drivers in F1. The answer is yes. They make contracts that aren't really worth the paper they are printed on. Just because you can afford to cancel it and pay it out doesn't mean that it is the "family values" way to do business that they preach. 

Edited by ARTGP, 17 July 2024 - 21:27.

[RekF1]

And no-one can argue getting rid of Ricciardo was the wrong decision.
 
McLaren must be a competitive force again if a slagging off Zak thread is in full swing.
 
This forum has always been very anti-McLaren but it’s usually been generalised rather than aimed at an individual,

I'm not slagging off Zac. I thought people liked outspoken people, but it's conditional, I guess.

I like the guy.

[Sterzo]

That's the flowery way to express what Mclaren did. 

I tend to be weedy rather than flowery, but was just describing the legal position in the UK (don't know if it's the same elsewhere). No court will make an employee and employer work together. The contract is effectively just about compensation.

[MikeTekRacing]

That's the flowery way to express what Mclaren did.  I'm not arguing that they were wrong to pursue Piastri, but the original question was whether or not Mclaren's driver contract behaviour in Indycar was similar to how they treated drivers in F1. The answer is yes. 

and it is different. Theo Pourchaire was under contract for a few weeks when dumped, probably didn't do anything wrong. Ending his contract was a major blow for Theo. 

Daniel underperformed massively for 2 years and was clearly under performance management conversation. Ending this should not have been a surprise nor a blow to Daniel. 

[ARTGP]

and it is different. Theo Pourchaire was under contract for a few weeks when dumped, probably didn't do anything wrong. Ending his contract was a major blow for Theo. 

Daniel underperformed massively for 2 years and was clearly under performance management conversation. Ending this should not have been a surprise nor a blow to Daniel. 

 

Two drivers had a contract. Someone better came along. The rest is history. 

Edited by ARTGP, 17 July 2024 - 21:43.

[MikeTekRacing]

if you wanna stop at that - it's valid for every serious business in the world.

 

personally i see a difference in terminating a contract a few weeks after signing it, surprising everyone and terminating a contract with an underperforming partner. 

in my book the second one is just normal management. The first one is debatable for ethics

[pup]

While I understand that ultimately the CEO is responsible for everything in the company, everything I've read regarding Malukas, Pourchaire and Siegel says the decisions were all Ward and Kanaan's.  So if either driver was wronged, which is surely true to some degree, I think Zak's portion of the blame is purely in giving his team a free hand and supporting their decisions.

[pup]

As for Ricciardo, that wasn't so much McLaren saying you're out and Riccardo refusing and then them having a slap fight.  It's more like them saying sorry, and him saying yeah I get it but you can't expect me to leave money on the table, and McLaren saying true, here's your check.

[Bliman]

I dislike Brown even more than Horner.

[red stick]

While I understand that ultimately the CEO is responsible for everything in the company, everything I've read regarding Malukas, Pourchaire and Siegel says the decisions were all Ward and Kanaan's. So if either driver was wronged, which is surely true to some degree, I think Zak's portion of the blame is purely in giving his team a free hand and supporting their decisions.

Part of the genius of Brown's ongoing public relations campaign is that his name is prominently mentioned in the team's successes, whether he had a direct hand in the decisions or not, but he can rely on people making these kinds of distinctions when the team is less than stellar, even though, as you say, it is unlikely that Malukas and Pourchaire were bought out without his approval. Playing to the press has its advantages. If Horner, for one, ever had this superpower (and Marko permitted a good cop/bad cop dynamic) he forfeited it years ago.

Edited by red stick, 17 July 2024 - 23:57.

[Gambelli]

There wasn't much in what he said, he would have been asked, he answered.

 

I like the way Zac is going about things for the most part, I like that he's growing the McLaren brand in multiple series, not just obsessing over one, he's done a good job, most of his teams are fairly successful.

[Benchulo]

Has any team in the recent past thrown away so many wins in a row? When your team is throwing away a potential championship, I don't think it's a good moment to throw shades at others.

[loki]

So does he mention Horner at all in the interview?…

[RekF1]

So does he mention Horner at all in the interview?…

Yes. It's a good interview and I'm not sure why everyone doesn't trust it

“I speak up on issues. It just seems I have more issues with him [Christian], more than others, because he says and does stuff I think is wrong.“It’s less about getting under each other’s skin and fighting because we were not competing with them during the cost-cap [episode]. I just felt the integrity of the cost cap was critical for the success of Formula 1 and if it wasn’t taken seriously, the sport would be damaged forever.“I was trying to protect the integrity of the sport and they didn’t take it seriously. That’s why I spoke up.”

[southernstars]

When Horner and Wolff fight publicly, I always get the impression that it's part of the fun for them. There has been plenty of proof that those two respect one another highly and actually get along reasonably well.

 

Brown comes off as the kid jumping up and down at the edge of the playground of the older kids screaming "Look at meeeee! Pay attention to meeeeeeee!"

 

As for his role in the Piasco: I do not blame him for jumping at Oscar. I do not blame him for choosing not to continue with Daniel. I do blame him for misleading both drivers into thinking the other knew. I do blame him for blindsiding Daniel with "actually we already signed your replacement".

 

And I do blame him for publicly trying to discredit Daniel's ability and blaming him for everything wrong at McLaren and that it was all Daniel's fault....and then sacking his technical director once the season ended and Daniel was gone. Really, Zak? It was all Daniel's fault, was it? McLaren were doing everything right, were they? It wasn't the car at all, just Daniel, huh?

[New Britain]

When Horner and Wolff fight publicly, I always get the impression that it's part of the fun for them. There has been plenty of proof that those two respect one another highly and actually get along reasonably well.

 

Brown comes off as the kid jumping up and down at the edge of the playground of the older kids screaming "Look at meeeee! Pay attention to meeeeeeee!"

 

As for his role in the Piasco: I do not blame him for jumping at Oscar. I do not blame him for choosing not to continue with Daniel. I do blame him for misleading both drivers into thinking the other knew. I do blame him for blindsiding Daniel with "actually we already signed your replacement".

 

And I do blame him for publicly trying to discredit Daniel's ability and blaming him for everything wrong at McLaren and that it was all Daniel's fault....and then sacking his technical director once the season ended and Daniel was gone. Really, Zak? It was all Daniel's fault, was it? McLaren were doing everything right, were they? It wasn't the car at all, just Daniel, huh?

And you say that because, since he left McLaren, Daniel has been doing so brilliantly at RB?

 

By the first few races of his second season at McLaren, the whole world knew that Daniel's job was in serious jeopardy, and whether he would have any chance at driving for them in the third season would be a matter only of whether McLaren could find a competent replacement. If, by the time that McLaren signed Oscar, Daniel seriously believed that for the following season the seat was still his to lose, he was delusional.

[New Britain]

is is fair to remind him of how Mclaren were excluded from a championship for cheating? 

 

It might be if McLaren had actually cheated, but they did not, so, no, it would not be fair.

 

From the grave Max Mosley would be delighted to know that many people still believe the myth that he propagated, but one would expect regular participants of this forum to know better. 
 

[MikeTekRacing]

When Horner and Wolff fight publicly, I always get the impression that it's part of the fun for them. There has been plenty of proof that those two respect one another highly and actually get along reasonably well.

Brown comes off as the kid jumping up and down at the edge of the playground of the older kids screaming "Look at meeeee! Pay attention to meeeeeeee!"

As for his role in the Piasco: I do not blame him for jumping at Oscar. I do not blame him for choosing not to continue with Daniel. I do blame him for misleading both drivers into thinking the other knew. I do blame him for blindsiding Daniel with "actually we already signed your replacement".

And I do blame him for publicly trying to discredit Daniel's ability and blaming him for everything wrong at McLaren and that it was all Daniel's fault....and then sacking his technical director once the season ended and Daniel was gone. Really, Zak? It was all Daniel's fault, was it? McLaren were doing everything right, were they? It wasn't the car at all, just Daniel, huh?

The reason for Daniel being p!ss poor at Mclaren is just Daniel

[jacdaniel]

It’s hard to understand why McLaren are trying to fight so hard with Red Bull off track. They’d be better served focusing on their own operations

[jonklug]

Was wondering when the new 'I hate RedBull' thread would drop. 

[Nobody]

Was wondering when the new 'I hate RedBull' thread would drop. 

 

you sure? this reads more like the I hate Zak Brown thread to me...

[messy]

Operationally, Mercedes and Red Bull are having McLaren on toast now the three have roughly equal machinery. That should be Brown’s focus although I’m absolutely no fan of Red Bull.

[Alex79]

Operationally, Mercedes and Red Bull are having McLaren on toast now the three have roughly equal machinery. That should be Brown’s focus although I’m absolutely no fan of Red Bull.

he has Stella handle that pickle to have his hands free ;)

[Stoffel]

I miss Ron Dennis.