488 replies to this topic

[Disgrace]

I felt McLaren created the mess, so Norris could well have kept the win without necessarily the flak. Interested to see how the forum feels about this one.

[Anja]

I certainly wouldn't hold it against him, I'll say that. 

[TheFish]

Yes. No chance does Lewis, Max or Fernando give up that win, and they are all multiple champions.

[lewislorenzo]

Just like in 2017 at Hungary in the long term this will benefit Lando

[Flyhigh]

Norris is fighting for the Championship, Piastri is clearly not, not sure why Mclaren created this mess, if both drivers were in equal footing a few points apart ok, But Norris clearly has Piastri covered in a Championship battle with Max collapsing at the same time, it was time for cut throat and Mclaren decided to play nice boys... 

[SilverArrow31]

Mclaren shouldn't have created the mess in the first place...

[Bendo]

No. He should have let him past when the team told him and then had 20 laps to take it back.

His own petulance cost him a win, not the team. He can't see the bigger picture and unless that changes he won't win a WDC.

[Button4life]

It would’ve destroyed his relationship with Piastri. It’s not like Norris has a high chance of winning the wdc. Norris fixed the problem McLaren created.

Worst thing is Lando would’ve probably won if Piastri pitted first. He had much better pace in the last stint. The ‘problem’ would’ve fixed itself. Instead the pitwall made an absolute mess of this.

[juicy sushi]

I'd say definitely not.  You need a team around you in order to win.  And pulling frankly the d*ck move and refusing to swap back after the team inverted the pit sequence to protect you from the chasing pack says that you are not willing to be a team player.  Yes drivers are selfish, but this isn't a sport where it's only about the driver.  Dominant champions know how to build the psychological bonds within the team to get everyone supporting them.  Lando would have done the opposite if he'd not given the place back as it shows that it's not worth going the extra mile for him, since he won't for you.  It's emotionally hard for him today, but it's something that will help him keep McLaren focused on him in the long term.  

 

EDIT:  Yes, it is McLaren's fault for inverting that pit order when they shouldn't have.  But clearly the agreement existed before the race, and McLaren again stressed the situation throughout the race.  At no point did Lando not know this was what was going to happen.

Edited by juicy sushi, 21 July 2024 - 14:54.

[hayabusasc]

So had Piastri been all over him for the last 10 or so laps I'd have definitely said no.

The fact Lando further built a gap however means I wouldn't have blamed him if he kept the place.

[aray]

He must think for long game aka next year, when he will have real chance to put up a championship fight. He did the right thing by not damaging his relation with team and Piastri, when it was even not his fault to begin with.

[DW46]

Given a choice between a Grand Prix victory or a moral one, he dithered and missed out on the Grand Prix win, the extra points, the momentum and the happy feels in the garage.

He’s mighty quick and his racecraft especially in the wet is decent but he’s not a Champion.

Glad he did the right thing in the end, classy.

[Showty]

Let's say he lets Piastri pass on lap 55.

Is he allowed to compete for the W from there?

If the answer is no, he should have kept the W.

[Button4life]

Yes. No chance does Lewis, Max or Fernando give up that win, and they are all multiple champions.

Schumacher did it multiple times. Lewis did in 2017 in Hungary I believe.

You can’t win championships without having a good relationship with your team. Alonso has showed that multiple times.

[frosty125]

Ask me at the end of the season.

[AlexPrime]

No. Carlos was like this and look where he is now. 
Lando did the right thing. He showed he is a knight. 

[Ivanhoe]

Absolutely, he’s Verstappen’s only contender in the WDC. If Norris finishes within 7 points or less behind Verstappen, they’ll regret this swap of positions.

[F1Frog]

It was crazy not to just save tyres as the team requested and then try to do it on track.

[sofarapartguy]

Depends on what Landos plan was to do next in F1. There are lot of drivers ready to jump in and win races in that Macca. 

[Risil]

Glad you created this thread, I was following the race while out and about and couldn't make head or tail of what McLaren were trying to achieve.

[Jellyfishcake]

I wouldn't have blamed him, but in the long term I certainly think he'll benefit more from this with both the team and Piastri. 

[Jackmancer]

Should have given the place back earlier, then try to overtake.

[Schumisenna23]

It was crazy not to just save tyres as the team requested and then try to do it on track.

Agree

[1player]

With the direction Red Bull is going, absolutely. McLaren shat the bed, made Lando look the jerk, and killed the fight in him. The engineer shaming him for being selfish and thinking about his championship was the cherry on top of the dung cake.

[Timorous]

Yes given the WDC position.

 

Alternatively McLaren should have pitted Piastri 1st to avoid this.

[Disgrace]

He must think for long game aka next year, when he will have real chance to put up a championship fight. He did the right thing by not damaging his relation with team and Piastri, when it was even not his fault to begin with.

 

Yeah, this is why it's not obvious either way.

[peroa]

They’re firmly in 2008 BMW thinking, aren’t they.

[Baddoer]

For himself, yes. From team atmosphere perspective,  no.

[Brawn BGP 001]

If it was Red Bull or Ferrari what would they have done?

[ArchieTech]

He did the sensible thing, but he should never have been put in this position. With the gap he pulled I could have understood it in the heat of the moment if he didn't swap. But was sensible in the long run to do this.

 

I'm assuming there was an agreement not to overtake in the last stint hence why he waited, especially with the gap he pulled (which wasn't helped by Piastri running off track on his last set of tyres early in the stint.).

 

McLaren have a history of undercutting with the second positioned driver. As I've posted in other threads, Silverstone last year where they undercut Lando with Oscar only didn't play out because of a race neutralisation.

[Clrnc]

Vettel also did the multi 21. People are going to be idiotic and say that’s why Norris won’t be champion because he’s too nice but I respect Norris for giving the place back.

McLaren caused the mess definitely and even if Norris had extra pace he is NEVER passing Oscar on this track in equal cars. Once you get into dirty air your tyres get destroyed

[TMC44]

Norris needs to be like Vettel and put himself first. Cannot imagine Senna, Piquet, Verstappen and Lauda gifting their team mate a win, unless it was say the last race.

[Gareth]

I think it was an absolutely absurd decision from McLaren given they have the potential to fight for the WDC.

Once they had made it, Norris was imo right to not give up 4s of track position with plenty of race left, and to see if he could persuade the team to change their mind. But then when they stuck with it, he was right to not go against it imo and not cause that issue post race.

Still cannot believe what McLaren did though. Had the pace for an easy one two and made it difficult for themselves for absolutely no reason, incentivising both drivers to push to the end (increasing the risk of an off or, if an SC had bunched the pack, being on the worn tyres). Idiotic to risk your race win in order to reduce the points your WDC challenging driver scores.

[macjim]

Sporting wise yes, championship wise no.

 

l voted he should give up the win, as you need the team to win a championship in the long run.

 

I’d expected Mark Webber would have lamped Lando if he hadn’t swapped positions   

[Baddoer]

Vettel also did the multi 21.
 

Yes, and next year Red Bull clearly supported Riccardo because of that

[Flyhigh]

Schumacher did it multiple times. Lewis did in 2017 in Hungary I believe.

You can’t win championships without having a good relationship with your team. Alonso has showed that multiple times.

Mate, never when they were in a Championship battle, never. I was actually the other way around they would ask the second driver to yeld for them... Schumacher would only place nice with the team when Championship was not at stake at all... get your facts straight. 

[1player]

Norris needs to be like Vettel and put himself first. Cannot imagine Senna, Piquet, Verstappen and Lauda gifting their team mate a win, unless it was say the last race.

Quoting because this needs to be repeated.

 

No serious champion would allow the team to humiliate them in this way. No team would humiliate their potential champion in this way either.

[Darnswim]

Norris needs to be like Vettel and put himself first. Cannot imagine Senna, Piquet, Verstappen and Lauda gifting their team mate a win, unless it was say the last race.

Lewis did it. The drivers you mentioned were notorious ****s when it came to team-mate relationships. Lando should've never been put on this position, but in the end he did the right thing.

[ensign14]

No, because that seems not to have been the arrangement.

 

Question is whether McLaren should have said beforehand that Piastri had to cede to Norris because of the (remote) championship chance.  Especially given McLaren has already cost Norris dozens of points thus far.

[Topsu]

The poll is limited. Yes, since he started his rebellion in the first place. No, if he would have simply done what the team asked to.

 

Absolute worst case is what we actually saw.

[Anderis]

Mate, never when they were in a Championship battle, never. I was actually the other way around they would ask the second driver to yeld for them... Schumacher would only place nice with the team when Championship was not at stake at all... get your facts straight. 

What are you talking about? Hamilton wasn't in a Championship battle when he gave the place back to Bottas in Hungary 2017?

[Button4life]

Mate, never when they were in a Championship battle, never. I was actually the other way around they would ask the second driver to yeld for them... Schumacher would only place nice with the team when Championship was not at stake at all... get your facts straight.

Norris isn’t in a championship battle. He’s more than 70 points behind Max. He has no realistic chance of winning the championship.

[SophieB]

@HillF1

The issue is not what was agreed before the race. The issue is that people pay to see a race. Not a display. It always leaves a bad taste. But in the next few hours, weeks, years, people will debate the rights and wrongs of this kind of thing. But remember Austria 2002. #f1
 

[Ncedi]

I'm not a huge fan of Lando (was in the beginning but it waned) or Oscar but Lando did the right thing in the end and I respect that...there were longer term ramifications of keeping that win

[Stoffel]

Only reason he got into the lead was because McLaren gave him an undercut on Piastri, so no.

[Clrnc]

No, because that seems not to have been the arrangement.

Question is whether McLaren should have said beforehand that Piastri had to cede to Norris because of the (remote) championship chance. Especially given McLaren has already cost Norris dozens of points thus far.

I’m sure if Norris is closer to Max in points the situation will change.

Now Oscar owes Norris and his championship for the whole year. It’s good long term wise

[TomNokoe]

Yes! It was the team's problem, not his.

[onewingedangel]

Depends on whether Piastri lets Lando pass for the rest of the season when it's not for the win - could make up more than 7 points by playing the team game.

[KnucklesAgain]

Norris should not have been put in the position in the first place, nor Piastri. McLaren seems to have a real (though small) chance in the WDC with Norris but the points gap is large and they need to maximize every point for Norris. The pit wall should have had the balls to make decisions and not put it on the drivers

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 21 July 2024 - 15:05.

[ArchieTech]

Quoting because this needs to be repeated.

 

No serious champion would allow the team to humiliate them in this way. No team would humiliate their potential champion in this way either.

I suspect the internal team dynamics were rather different for Seb than they are for Lando though.