488 replies to this topic

[Ivanhoe]

I'm not sure how someone could be second in the World Drivers' Championship if he 'doesn't deliver'.

Perez finished 2nd in the WDC last season, did he deliver? There’s more than just the position in the standings, Norris/McLaren really missed out on reducing the gap with Verstappen and put him under more pressure.

[MikeTekRacing]

I'm not sure how someone could be second in the World Drivers' Championship if he 'doesn't deliver'.

In general or in this case?

[PayasYouRace]

“You’re only as good as your last race” seems to hit especially hard before the summer break.

[baddog]

I think this is all rather excessive. Norris has shown some weaknesses,  but then so have ALL of his rivals. 

[New Britain]

Perez finished 2nd in the WDC last season, did he deliver? There’s more than just the position in the standings, Norris/McLaren really missed out on reducing the gap with Verstappen and put him under more pressure.

Except that Perez finished with fewer than half as many points as his teammate did, whereas Norris has scored more points than his own teammate (who is also delivering) has done.

[New Britain]

In general or in this case?

My comment was directed at your generalising dismissal that Norris 'doesn't deliver'.

[MikeTekRacing]

My comment was directed at your generalising dismissal that Norris 'doesn't deliver'.

He does not deliver enough to challenge for the title.
Hill finished 2nd in 1995. Did he deliver?

[MikeTekRacing]

I think this is all rather excessive. Norris has shown some weaknesses, but then so have ALL of his rivals.

The number 1 weakness is not winning enough when having the car to do it. You won’t beat Max in a close car title race like this.
This is such a contrast to 2021 - when the pendulum was swinging but so were the winnings. Max/Lewis won’t let too many wins on the table.
Norris needs to be at that level if he wants to win.

[Ivanhoe]

Except that Perez finished with fewer than half as many points as his teammate did, whereas Norris has scored more points than his own teammate (who is also delivering) has done.

Nice deflection. I wasn’t arguing with you whether Norris performed better than Perez. My point was that there’s more than just looking at the position in the WDC to determine whether Norris has ‘delivered’ or not. It depends on your definition of ‘delivered’ if he did, but I think it’s fair to say that he didn’t maximize his results over the last few races and that he should have been closer to Verstappen than he is now.

[New Britain]

Nice deflection. I wasn’t arguing with you whether Norris performed better than Perez. My point was that there’s more than just looking at the position in the WDC to determine whether Norris has ‘delivered’ or not. It depends on your definition of ‘delivered’ if he did, but I think it’s fair to say that he didn’t maximize his results over the last few races and that he should have been closer to Verstappen than he is now.

Of course there is more than just looking at one's position in the WDC in order to determine whether a driver has 'delivered'. I thought the context was self-evident: that we were talking about Lando Norris, not Sergio Perez or anyone else, and the point was that if Lando Norris in 2024 is second in the WDC, he must be 'delivering'. As you say, in the last few races he has not maximised his results, but neither has Max Verstappen or anyone else.

[New Britain]

He does not deliver enough to challenge for the title.
Hill finished 2nd in 1995. Did he deliver?

Whatever happened in 1995, when Hill finished 2nd in WDC and scored 40% more points than his teammate did, is irrelevant.

 

In the last 9 races starting with Miami - the period in which Verstappen and Norris have had roughly equal cars - Verstappen has scored 159 points and Norris has scored 141 points. If we add to Norris's total the 25 points that he should have won in Austria if Verstappen had not pulled a typical boneheaded, illegal Verstappen move and knocked him out of the race, over that period Norris would have scored more points than Verstappen.

One must also bear in mind that Norris has a high-quality teammate who has been taking points off him, unlike the situation at Red Bull where Verstappen has no internal competition whatever.

I appreciate the general point that you are making, that Norris has made some mistakes that have cost him points, and that there are realistic scenarios in which he could have won at least a couple more races this year, but to expand that to the generalisation that he 'doesn't deliver' is not supported by the facts.

Wrt your other comment, about 2021, in the second half of that season Hamilton drove pretty much flawlessly for race after race. Norris has not been driving at that level, but I think it has been many seasons since anyone drove at that level.

[SenorSjon]

IF Verstappens car performed the same on Sunday as Saturday, he would have won both Austria and Belgium.
IF the overtake on Hamilton in Hungary went smooth.
IF Norris let Piastri past at the start of the final stint.

We could go on forever.

[Ivanhoe]

Of course there is more than just looking at one's position in the WDC in order to determine whether a driver has 'delivered'. I thought the context was self-evident: that we were talking about Lando Norris, not Sergio Perez or anyone else, and the point was that if Lando Norris in 2024 is second in the WDC, he must be 'delivering'. As you say, in the last few races he has not maximised his results, but neither has Max Verstappen or anyone else.

Yeah well, you said Norris is delivering becaus he’s 2nd in the WDC, I think he would be delivering if he’d put Verstappen under more pressure. Good that he’s beating Piastri and is 2nd in the WDC, but if he wants to be at the level of elite drivers like Hamilton and Verstappen he really needs to step up.

[New Britain]

Yeah well, you said Norris is delivering becaus he’s 2nd in the WDC, I think he would be delivering if he’d put Verstappen under more pressure. Good that he’s beating Piastri and is 2nd in the WDC, but if he wants to be at the level of elite drivers like Hamilton and Verstappen he really needs to step up.

In the absolute, he has room for improvement, as he has made several mistakes this year, as have Verstappen and Hamilton made mistakes.

For the last 1½ seasons overall, IMO Norris's driving has been better than Hamilton's. The editors of Autosport agree, btw: for 2024 they have Norris ranked 1st, ahead of both Verstappen and Hamilton. 

 

 

Eta: Autosport editors have Verstappen in P1, followed by Norris, Leclerc, Piastri, Russell, Sainz, Hulkenberg, Hamilton, Gasly, and Ocon.

Edited by New Britain, 04 August 2024 - 19:14.

[P123]

In the absolute, he has room for improvement, as he has made several mistakes this year, as have Verstappen and Hamilton made mistakes.

For the last 1½ seasons overall, IMO Norris's driving has been better than Hamilton's. The editors of Autosport agree, btw: for 2024 they have Norris ranked 1st, ahead of both Verstappen and Hamilton. 

 

In fairness to Norris, McLaren carry some of the can for Silverstone, and in Austria he was hugely unlucky.  But he's probably learning that a fast car doesn't always equate to easy victories.  Better than Max this season?  Not a chance!  Better than Lewis? Probably Lewis's worst season, to an extent, so not difficult!     I suspect also a degree of results vs expectation in those ratings.  Everything a bonus.  But expectations are now high for Lando given the car he has.

[New Britain]

In fairness to Norris, McLaren carry some of the can for Silverstone, and in Austria he was hugely unlucky.  But he's probably learning that a fast car doesn't always equate to easy victories.  Better than Max this season?  Not a chance!  Better than Lewis? Probably Lewis's worst season, to an extent, so not difficult!     I suspect also a degree of results vs expectation in those ratings.  Everything a bonus.  But expectations are now high for Lando given the car he has.

Actually, I erred. The editors have Norris in P2, behind Verstappen, and well ahead of Hamilton whom they have in P8. It's the readers who have Norris ahead of Verstappen.
 

[Ivanhoe]

Actually, I erred. The editors have Norris in P2, behind Verstappen, and well ahead of Hamilton whom they have in P8. It's the readers who have Norris ahead of Verstappen.
 

Still I’m pretty convinced Hamilton in the MCL38 would be a bigger threat to Verstappen than Norris. Norris is absolutely a fast driver, but still needs to step up to be at real WDC level in my opinion.

[New Britain]

Still I’m pretty convinced Hamilton in the MCL38 would be a bigger thread to Verstappen than Norris. Norris is absolutely a fast driver, but still needs to step up to be at real WDC level in my opinion.

Given the chance, driving the McLaren Hamilton might be a bigger threat than Norris is - we'll never know. At least to my eye, since the FIA robbed him in AD21 he has not been the same driver he was. Perhaps that is because he has known that he was not in a winning car and that undermined his motivation. There have been a couple of great drives, but many more weekends of nothing special.

Edited by New Britain, 05 August 2024 - 03:38.

[MikeTekRacing]

In fairness to Norris, McLaren carry some of the can for Silverstone, and in Austria he was hugely unlucky. But he's probably learning that a fast car doesn't always equate to easy victories. Better than Max this season? Not a chance! Better than Lewis? Probably Lewis's worst season, to an extent, so not difficult! I suspect also a degree of results vs expectation in those ratings. Everything a bonus. But expectations are now high for Lando given the car he has.

In fairness, you have to count his luck too.
Without the SC he would not have been anywhere close to winning Miami. He had the pace, but couldn’t overtake Checo. Would have had to make a few oveetakes in the last stint. Never going to happen

[MikeTekRacing]

Whatever happened in 1995, when Hill finished 2nd in WDC and scored 40% more points than his teammate did, is irrelevant.

In the last 9 races starting with Miami - the period in which Verstappen and Norris have had roughly equal cars - Verstappen has scored 159 points and Norris has scored 141 points. If we add to Norris's total the 25 points that he should have won in Austria if Verstappen had not pulled a typical boneheaded, illegal Verstappen move and knocked him out of the race, over that period Norris would have scored more points than Verstappen.
One must also bear in mind that Norris has a high-quality teammate who has been taking points off him, unlike the situation at Red Bull where Verstappen has no internal competition whatever.
I appreciate the general point that you are making, that Norris has made some mistakes that have cost him points, and that there are realistic scenarios in which he could have won at least a couple more races this year, but to expand that to the generalisation that he 'doesn't deliver' is not supported by the facts.
Wrt your other comment, about 2021, in the second half of that season Hamilton drove pretty much flawlessly for race after race. Norris has not been driving at that level, but I think it has been many seasons since anyone drove at that level.

First of all, you said he was second and the best out of his team so he was delivering. Not a good metric, as proven by Hill in 95.
Since Miami they did not have equal cars. The Mclaren is just better. He only has the Miami win and scored less points than Max.
That’s underperforming if the goal is to beat Max.

[MikeTekRacing]

The editors of Autosport agree, btw: for 2024 they have Norris ranked 1st, ahead of both Verstappen and Hamilton.
.

Yeah, not sure that actually supports your point.
They are know to be clowns. I’d trust openly declared fan boys from around here before I trust them.

[New Britain]

Yeah, not sure that actually supports your point.
They are know to be clowns. I’d trust openly declared fan boys from around here before I trust them.

How lucky we on this forum are to have the benefit of your brilliant insight, lest we be misled by the 'clowns' of Autosport.

[milestone 11]

How lucky we on this forum are to have the benefit of your brilliant insight, lest we be misled by the 'clowns' of Autosport.

Bearman is top of both Autosport and Readers ratings, so best taken with a pinch of salt.

[AlexPrime]

If we call the Autorsport journalists clowns, I am not sure how productive the discussion's going to be. It is clear that Lando is doing well as he is a good driver, as it is also clear that Max is a very special talent and driving extremely well. I don't understand the need to devalue the other driver, it cheapens the success of your favorite. The season is brilliant, there is ZERO reason for people to be so extremely negative all the time. Sometimes I feel fans deserve Stroll to dominate with Newey-Aston to understand what they have now

[New Britain]

Bearman is top of both Autosport and Readers ratings, so best taken with a pinch of salt.

I'm referring to Autosport magazine, the physical product. Their latest rankings are:

 

VER - 8.1

NOR - 7.8

LEC - 7.5

PIA - 7.4

RUS - 7.3

SAI - 6.8

HUL - 6.6

HAM - 6.5

GAS - 6.2

OCO - 6.1

 

They note that their rankings do not include Bearman, whose single score of 10.0 is not meaningful because he drove only one race.

[MikeTekRacing]

How lucky we on this forum are to have the benefit of your brilliant insight, lest we be misled by the 'clowns' of Autosport.

 

 

if that' the level of the conversation you can have, feel free to live in the bubble you wanna live.

Nobody's being negative about Norris. He just failed to mount a title challenge so far in the races where he had a VERY strong car.

 

if he wants to beat Max he needs to do better than that

[New Britain]

if that' the level of the conversation you can have, feel free to live in the bubble you wanna live.

Nobody's being negative about Norris. He just failed to mount a title challenge so far in the races where he had a VERY strong car.

 

if he wants to beat Max he needs to do better than that

 

Entirely gratuitously, and for no legitimate reason, you wrote that the editors of Autosport are 'clowns'. I was trying to reply to you at your chosen level.

 

You now write that 'Nobody's being negative about Norris', and yet what started this exchange was your own previous assertion that 'Norris doesn't deliver'. That's not being negative?

 

Yes, if Norris is going to best Verstappen, he needs to do better than he has been doing. Unfortunately his job was made more difficult when Verstappen illegally drove into Norris's car, knocking him out of a race and costing Norris 25 points.

[milestone 11]

I'm referring to Autosport magazine, the physical product. Their latest rankings are:

 

VER - 8.1

NOR - 7.8

LEC - 7.5

PIA - 7.4

RUS - 7.3

SAI - 6.8

HUL - 6.6

HAM - 6.5

GAS - 6.2

OCO - 6.1

 

They note that their rankings do not include Bearman, whose single score of 10.0 is not meaningful because he drove only one race.

https://www.autospor...driver-ratings/

 

Lewis is 9th in both which is absolute nonsense.

Edited by milestone 11, 06 August 2024 - 09:59.

[Ivanhoe]

Unfortunately his job was made more difficult when Verstappen illegally drove into Norris's car, knocking him out of a race and costing Norris 25 points.

To be fair, I think Norris drove legally into Verstappen's car.

[New Britain]

To be fair, I think Norris drove legally into Verstappen's car.

Or Verstappen drove illegally into the legal path of Norris's car?

Or Norris drove legally into Verstappen's illegally-placed car? 

Or Norris got Verstappened?

 

[Ivanhoe]

Or Verstappen drove illegally into the legal path of Norris's car?

Or Norris drove legally into Verstappen's illegally-placed car? 

Or Norris got Verstappened?

 

My point was that Norris made the choice not to yield, which resulted in a DNF. Of course Verstappen was at fault here, although most drivers didn't think it was that much really, but one can argue whether Norris made the right decision here. Winning championships is also about picking your battles.

[New Britain]

My point was that Norris made the choice not to yield, which resulted in a DNF. Of course Verstappen was at fault here, although most drivers didn't think it was that much really, but one can argue whether Norris made the right decision here. Winning championships is also about picking your battles.

Picking one's battles is definitely important - in lots of things, including motor racing. I could not say whether it was the right thing for Norris to have attempted that move but, in addition to assessing the likelihood of success of a specific prospective move, one considers its signalling effect. Early in his F1 career Verstappen began to demonstrate his 'Let-me-through-or-I'll-crash-us-both-out' attitude, and as a result other drivers have seemed to give him that bit wider a berth ever since then. You may recall in here a year or two ago a lengthy thread in which some argued that Norris was typically too passive when dicing with other drivers. So perhaps there was more than one justification for Norris to try to get past Verstappen in Austria.

[Arska]

Why should Norris receive favourable treatment over Oscar at this stage, when Oscar is only 32 points behind and in excellent form?

 

Because Lando is still 32 pts ahead of Oscar, even with the silliness at Hungary. To have even a small chance at WDC, McLaren should have made a decision at Hungary to favor Lando. It's still not impossible but the odds keep going down with every poor decision.

[Arska]

My point was that Norris made the choice not to yield, which resulted in a DNF. Of course Verstappen was at fault here, although most drivers didn't think it was that much really, but one can argue whether Norris made the right decision here. Winning championships is also about picking your battles.

 

In what way exactly should Lando have yielded? Not battling Max at all until the end of the race? Or something else like going off track when getting squeezed?

[noikeee]

Yeah at some stage Lando has to start showing his elbows. Seems bizarre to simultaneously criticise him for being too passive, then "not picking his battles" by not giving extra room when he's not at fault.

[southernstars]

Because Lando is still 32 pts ahead of Oscar, even with the silliness at Hungary. To have even a small chance at WDC, McLaren should have made a decision at Hungary to favor Lando. It's still not impossible but the odds keep going down with every poor decision.

 

So you are saying that McLaren should have stolen a well-earned victory from their young driver - and stolen it in a completely awful way - and gifted it to the driver who has managed to bottle every single front row start he's ever achieved, on the faint hope that perhaps that driver will somehow manage to pull it together enough to challenge the toughest driver on the grid?

 

If Norris wanted to win that race, he should have got to T1 first. If Norris wanted to win that race, it shouldn't have taken him two undercuts at a track where the undercut is stupidly powerful to get ahead. If Norris wanted to win that race, he shouldn't be demanding Oscar jump out of his way every time.

 

If McLaren had stolen that race and gifted it to Norris, they would have said bye-bye to any chance of Oscar helping Norris out, in the unlikely event Norris actually enters the title fight.

[AlexPrime]

So you are saying that McLaren should have stolen a well-earned victory from their young driver - and stolen it in a completely awful way - and gifted it to the driver who has managed to bottle every single front row start he's ever achieved, on the faint hope that perhaps that driver will somehow manage to pull it together enough to challenge the toughest driver on the grid?

 

Some people forget that we are talking about living beings here, not robots and that includes the McLaren pitwall. Should have never changed the order of pitting, they created this issue, hopefully they will learn from it. But yes, Oscar deserved his win and it is too early to be relegated to number 2 role. This would be evil IMO.

[noikeee]

Scenarios ordered from what made most sense to what made least sense:

 

1. Pit Oscar first, they retain the positions, and they are told they are free to fight as long as they're extremely careful

2. Pit Oscar first, they retain the positions, and they are told to hold station

3. Pit Lando first, they switch positions as we've seen, and they are told to hold station for the championship

4. Pit Lando first, they switch positions as we've seen, and they are told they are free to fight as long as they're extremely careful

5. Pit Lando first, they switch positions as we've seen, and they are told to switch back again

 

You can order scenarios 1 to 4 differently depending on your interpretation of what priorities the team should have, but 5 is clearly the worst. Congratulations McLaren, you've picked the clear 5th best option.

[Deeq]

Scenarios ordered from what made most sense to what made least sense:

1. Pit Oscar first, they retain the positions, and they are told they are free to fight as long as they're extremely careful
2. Pit Oscar first, they retain the positions, and they are told to hold station
3. Pit Lando first, they switch positions as we've seen, and they are told to hold station for the championship
4. Pit Lando first, they switch positions as we've seen, and they are told they are free to fight as long as they're extremely careful
5. Pit Lando first, they switch positions as we've seen, and they are told to switch back again

You can order scenarios 1 to 4 differently depending on your interpretation of what priorities the team should have, but 5 is clearly the worst. Congratulations McLaren, you've picked the clear 5th best option.

Uh..I am confused but scenario 5 didnt happen, Lando simply argued the issue untill scenario 4 became scenario 3.
McLaren have made a mistake there but not one as daft as that.

Edit: Ah I see you mean first switch THE pit overtake..I understood to mean on-track overtake!
As you were.
Anyway I will make a bold (or foolish if fate is uncooperative 😋) prediction, Oscar will finish more often ahead of Lando the rest of this season! 😱

Edited by Deeq, 07 August 2024 - 17:57.