530 replies to this topic

[Muppetmad]

"The driver of Car 44 stated that this was a racing incident, whilst the driver of Car 1 argued that this was a case of changing direction under braking."

 

This is a short sentence, but I think it says so much.

 

The stewards determining no driver is predominantly to blame is, I must say, mystifying.

[flyboym3]

https://x.com/fiadoc...071960792977733

No penalty. Ridiculous.

Crazy reasoning, it doesn't even make logical sense. They accept that max locked up before any contact yet say Lewis could have done more to avoid a collision?! The onus always used to be on the car doing the overtaking to be fully in control of their car?

They didnt even mention the space that max had to the right and don't even get me started on the apex that max could have went for..

[MortenF1]

Verstappen is hopeless.

[Marklar]

I like how it reads like they wanted to punish Max maybe, then Lewis said its a racing incident and Max wanted that Lewis gets punished instead?

may not be how it happened but it reads to me like it

[P123]

I like how it reads like they wanted to punish Max maybe, then Lewis said its a racing incident and Max wanted that Lewis gets punished instead?

may not be how it happened but it reads to me like it

 

As I said, not very well written/ reasoned.  Car 1 says Car 44moved under braking.  Stewards say nah mate, same as before.  Stewards say car 1 arrived faster than before but braked at the same point as before...... ergo... no fault to be applied.  I suspect they tried to word it in a way towards not giving a penalty, but it doesn't make entirely logical sense!   

Edited by P123, 21 July 2024 - 17:27.

[speedyenrico]

https://x.com/fiadoc...071960792977733

 

No penalty. Ridiculous.

what no penalty for HAM who could have avoided the collusion? indeed ridiculous!

[ARTGP]

"The driver of Car 44 stated that this was a racing incident, whilst the driver of Car 1 argued that this was a case of changing direction under braking."

 

Hamilton did move under braking. His normal turn in point for T1 was after the 50 meter board.  This can be seen on many laps before and after the incident. You can make out the 50 meter board on the grass to the left if you are quick. 

 

Lap 22:

 

lap 64:

 

lap 66:

 

lap 67:

 

On lap 63 he starts turning in where the curb striping starts (80 meters) in reaction to Verstappen, and in the brake zone. Its not his normal line. It's moving under braking.  Verstappen locked up because he had to tighten his line. Many have forgotten their opinions on moving under braking from Austria.

 

 

Edited by ARTGP, 21 July 2024 - 17:31.

[speedyenrico]

Crazy reasoning, it doesn't even make logical sense. They accept that max locked up before any contact yet say Lewis could have done more to avoid a collision?! The onus always used to be on the car doing the overtaking to be fully in control of their car?

They didnt even mention the space that max had to the right and don't even get me started on the apex that max could have went for..

Max was out of control but HAM decided to deliberately hit him. He could have avoided it. Perhaps both should have a penalty

[F1Frog]

I think it was sort of a racing incident but also sort of a case of Verstappen just spinning himself out with a botched overtaking move. No need for a penalty when Hamilton wasn’t at all affected.

[Gareth]

https://x.com/fiadoc...071960792977733

No penalty. Ridiculous.

Given the telemetry confirms Lewis was just turning in on his usual racing line, and that the claims of a move under braking were nonsense, I’m surprised Max didn’t get a penalty.

Well, not that surprised because it’s the FIA.

[MasterOfCoin]

Hamilton did move under braking. His normal turn in point for T1 was after the 50 meter board.  This can be seen on many laps before and after the incident. You can make out the 50 meter board on the grass to the left if you are quick. 

 

Lap 22:

 

lap 64:

 

lap 66:

 

lap 67:

 

On lap 63 he starts turning in where the curb striping starts (80 meters) in reaction to Verstappen, and in the brake zone. Its not his normal line. It's moving under braking.  Verstappen locked up because he had to tighten his line. Many have forgotten their opinions on moving under braking from Austria.

 

 

The lines will never be same after just overtaken the Williams, and being the defending driver at that point....

[PayasYouRace]

https://x.com/fiadoc...071960792977733

 

No penalty. Ridiculous.

Fair. I’d put that in the category of attacker’s fault but no penalty required. Just a misjudgement. Overcooked it a bit. No harm done but to himself.

[RoryFormula1]

Hamilton did move under braking. His normal turn in point for T1 was after the 50 meter board. This can be seen on many laps before and after the incident. You can make out the 50 meter board on the grass to the left if you are quick.

Telemetry states otherwise

[Jones Foyer]

Verstappen is hopeless.

Yeah, completely unable to compete. No talent at all. He will probably never get a podium, let alone a win.

[SenorSjon]

You see a small jinx to the right under braking before braking straight again. Verstappen was penalised for braking in a straight line in Austria. The stewards also noted that Hamilton could have done more to avoid the incident.

[Gareth]

Verstappen was penalised for braking in a straight line in Austria.

No he wasn’t. He was penalised for returning to the racing line and not leaving a car’s width.

His earlier moves in the braking zone went unpunished. The FIA later said (Silverstone driver briefing) that it wasn’t actually ok to defend like that.

[flyboym3]

ARTGP cunningly doesn't show the frames where Max tyres are smoking though you can see the last frame max has already locked up and lost control.

Show all of it Art if you have access to f1tv recordings, I would specifically like to see from cockpit view:
- how much more space max had on his right, did Lewis leave enough racing room?
- how far max was away from the apex.

In the past FIA have always referenced this as key (even though strangely they ignore it for this collision in their justification).

Edited by flyboym3, 21 July 2024 - 17:54.

[TheFish]

You see a small jinx to the right under braking before braking straight again. Verstappen was penalised for braking in a straight line in Austria. The stewards also noted that Hamilton could have done more to avoid the incident.

‘She shouldn’t have worn a short skirt’

That’s what it sounds like. Sure, the hothead driver with an attitude problem braked too late and locked his tyres but let’s blame the other guy. He should have been driving left for a right hand turn, he should have known the cubt would drive like a ****.

[george1981]

..The stewards also noted that Hamilton could have done more to avoid the incident.

 

i'm not overwhelmed with that comment from the stewards. If Hamilton jumped out of the way its likely that he'd have followed Verstappen off track and then ended up behind him. Although he could have done more, that can be said for every collision even when one driver is totally at fault, the other driver could have done something to get out of the way. 

[SophieB]

I can tell people have seen the stewards’ decision but I don’t think it has been posted. Here it is, just in case.

 

[chrcol]

"The driver of Car 44 stated that this was a racing incident, whilst the driver of Car 1 argued that this was a case of changing direction under braking."

 

This is a short sentence, but I think it says so much.

 

The stewards determining no driver is predominantly to blame is, I must say, mystifying.

The helicopter view (ironically the original one), showed Lewis doing what seemed like a normal turn, he didnt suddenly turn towards Max.

Max looked like he either wasnt going to make the corner (late desperate lunge) or he would have been right on the outside (we will never know).

 

Lewis said on radio (not sure if made world feed) that he didnt deviate on the steering as Max was next to him, Max said on the radio Lewis moved under braking.

 

Max was behind Lewis, and in these scenarios the lead driver often gets given the benefit of the doubt and they probably checked the steering telemetry to verify what Lewis said.  There was a gap for Max but he was never making that gap with how late he braked.

 

Probably is racing incident.

Edited by chrcol, 21 July 2024 - 18:06.

[jonklug]

Yes like I said it was a racing incident, it was quite clear. Verstappen was a bit too optimistic going in a bit hot, Lewis could have avoided it but it's nothing blatant either way, obvious non penalty as I said in the race thread.

Also have to say, so glad we have a thread for this, was wondering why it took so long /s

Edited by jonklug, 21 July 2024 - 18:08.

[geralt]

Clearly a racing incident, but I find it a bit crazy Max tried to argue for a Ham penalty 

[Spillage]

As I said in the other thread - racing incident for me. Verstappen lunges in and locks up; Hamilton doesn't react in time and keeps turning in. Probably 70/30 on Verstappen but I don't think a penalty would have been necessary or proportionate.

[P123]

Clearly a racing incident, but I find it a bit crazy Max tried to argue for a Ham penalty 

 

Probably smarting over his Austria penalty, however as many of the contributors in that topic were keen to mention, moving under braking is not covered by an actual rule, albeit not what the stewards like to see.  In this case they judged that Hamilton took his normal line.  Of course Austria quite different as Max did not leave any space.  He had a lot of that to play with in Hungary.

[Clrnc]

Racing incident? Max dive bombed while not having complete control of his car. Even if Lewis saw him and try to avoid him he won’t make the corner.

I can sort of agree for a racing incident but if one has to get a penalty it should be Max

[Hezekiah]

Crazy reasoning, it doesn't even make logical sense. They accept that max locked up before any contact yet say Lewis could have done more to avoid a collision?! The onus always used to be on the car doing the overtaking to be fully in control of their car?

They didnt even mention the space that max had to the right and don't even get me started on the apex that max could have went for..

Yeah it's clear that Verstappen carried far too much speed into the corner. I imagine he was hoping to get the car stopped and not worry too much about making the corner cleanly if he could push Hamilton off the track.

 

Funnily enough in Austria it was him complaining about divebombing. Today was a blatant divebomb, partly a result of his pent-up anger over perceived injustices.

[TheFish]

I know a lot of people were incandescent with Silverstonr that Lewis missed the apex by a metre or 2. Can only assume those people are furious that Max wasn’t even in the same postcode as the apex?

[P123]

As I said in the other thread - racing incident for me. Verstappen lunges in and locks up; Hamilton doesn't react in time and keeps turning in. Probably 70/30 on Verstappen but I don't think a penalty would have been necessary or proportionate.

 

I think that is where the stewards get it wrong in their decision.  "No driver predominantly to blame".  Too much champagne perhaps?  That would be the driver they judged to have arrived at the corner faster than previously, but braked in exactly the same spot as before, thus locking up and heading straight on as opposed to the driver who turned in as normal, according to them..  Does predominantly at fault have to mean a penalty?  Perhaps it does, hence the muddled press release.  I suspect they've created a bit of a headache for them in future incidents, as there is always something the other party could have done differently (as many many argued in the case of Norris at Austria!).

[geralt]

Incident has shades of Hamilton and Verstappen touching in Monaco at the swimming pool in 2019 with Ham moving slightly to the left to defend and Max locking up. Was a racing incident then, and it still is

[Claudius]

Hamilton did nothing wrong. Max was frustrated and came from 50 meters back. It doesn´t work like that.

Ham was very calm and defended with brains. One of the reasons for Max´ frustration methinks.

 

Good decision, racing incident.

[Mat13]

I love seeing how clumsy Verstappen is now he’s having to actually race people.

[geralt]

I love seeing how clumsy Verstappen is now he’s having to actually race people.

Clumsy? Maybe today, but he remains the driver with the best race craft on the field (bar Alonso maybe)

[Fortymark]

There wouldn´t have been a contact if Max had made his braking correct. 

On the lap before he clearly braked later than Hamilton but then he was on the outside so there was no 

problem then. But if you´re taking the inside line you have to make sure you make the the corner and not

drive straight on and hitting the driver whom makes the corner. 

Max, was probably a little pissed from the lap before as he thought he was squeezed 

[TheFish]

Clumsy? Maybe today, but he remains the driver with the best race craft on the field (bar Alonso maybe)

Depends on your definition of race craft tbh. If it’s ’move out of the way or we crash’ then he’s miles ahead of everyone.

[Radman]

Clumsy? Maybe today, but he remains the driver with the best race craft on the field (bar Alonso maybe)

Not even close to having the best racecraft

[jacdaniel]

Nothing burger really

[geralt]

Depends on your definition of race craft tbh. If it’s ’move out of the way or we crash’ then he’s miles ahead of everyone.

Nah watch this and tell me he's not brilliant: 

 

Or his battles with Leclerc in Silverstone, or his overtakes in the wet in 2016 etc

 

Yes he can sometimes cross the line (which I don't like), but overall he's a monster

[TomNokoe]

ARTGP is right that Hamilton does move in reaction, albeit the stewards have been shady on this for years. It was similar to the first lap of AD21.

It wasn't massive, though, and was mitigated by Max coming in way too hot regardless. Waaaay too hot.

I'm okay with no penalty because the racing gods penalised him anyway, but am concerned by the stewards continued aversion when it comes to Verstappen. Drivers have been penalised for less!

[TheFish]

Nothing burger really

No thoughts on being nowhere near the apex? I thought that was crucial.

[Mat13]

Clumsy? Maybe today, but he remains the driver with the best race craft on the field (bar Alonso maybe)

‘Disappear or we crash’ isn’t racecraft. Nor is sailing by people with no hope of keeping the position.

[Arska]

Clearly a racing incident, but I find it a bit crazy Max tried to argue for a Ham penalty 

 

When the going gets tough, Max was and is an ass and not fair at all.

[SlateGray]

Clumsy? Maybe today, but he remains the driver with the best race craft on the field (bar Alonso maybe)

Yielding or crashing isn't really racecraft. Winning in the fastest car is one aspect of racecraft, and managing your advantage is another. Max is good at the latter, but in terms of overall racecraft, I would rate him just behind this group of current F1 drivers: Valtteri Bottas, Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton, Charles Leclerc, Lando Norris, and Carlos Sainz.

[geralt]

When the going gets tough, Max was and is an ass and not fair at all.

And so was Shumi, so was Senna, so was Prost etc. All the best drivers are ruthless and push the boundaries of what's allowed and often go beyond. Doesn't change the fact he's the best driver on the grid and likely will go down as the best driver of all time if he continues doing what he's done in the past 6 years

[Baddoer]

Nothing to see there

[PayasYouRace]

I feel like Max is too naturally talented, and has spent too much time in dominating positions, to have every really developed his racecraft.

[geralt]

Yielding or crashing isn't really racecraft. Winning in the fastest car is one aspect of racecraft, and managing your advantage is another. Max is good at the latter, but in terms of overall racecraft, I would rate him just behind this group of current F1 drivers: Valtteri Bottas, Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton, Charles Leclerc, Lando Norris, and Carlos Sainz.

I hope you're kidding, Bottas was mr "let me defend empty air". Had some of the worst race craft I've seen. Other than Alonso, nobody defends or overtakes as well as Max

[Arska]

And so was Shumi, so was Senna, so was Prost etc. All the best drivers are ruthless and push the boundaries of what's allowed and often go beyond. Doesn't change the fact he's the best driver on the grid and likely will go down as the best driver of all time if he continues doing what he's done in the past 6 years

 

First of all, Prost had very few dirty moments. Schumi and Senna had more, but Max is well on his way to pass them both.

[geralt]

I feel like Max is too naturally talented, and has spent too much time in dominating positions, to have every really developed his racecraft.

Did you not watch f1 before 2021? I can think of so many amazing duels Max was involved in where he was clearly the slower car and defended brilliantly

[SlateGray]

I feel like Max is too naturally talented, and has spent too much time in dominating positions, to have every really developed his racecraft.

I agree, having the best car for some time has seemingly stunted any development in the race craft department. The recent results speak to it.