530 replies to this topic

[Fox1]

Posts in this thread just reinforces my conclusion that the level of driving standard expected of Max Verstappen (approaching 200 F1 starts) is low.   

[gillesfan76]

I thought it would be common sense, but the lockup and changed trajectory is happening past Hamilton's front wheel, so well within his field of view.

 

Are you ignoring the fact that it “happening past Hamilton’s front wheel” also means that Verstappen’s rear wheel is less than 3 metres behind Hamilton’s front wheel, with both cars travelling 55 metres per second or 5 hundreths of a second. What’s the average human reaction time? I thought it would be common sense to actually consider these things before accusing a driver of intentionally turning into another driver with the clear intent of causing a collision especially when said driver has been racing for almost two decades without anywhere near a reputation as a dirty driver.

[gillesfan76]

Max screwed up. The contact is shared blame, it was ruled as racing incident (even Lewis agreed).

checkout how Max opens the steering here. He is surprised to see Lando there, but avoids him. If Max would have done the same thing as Lewis here it would have been contact. 

 

I know you’re trying to be fair but I’m shocked at how irrelevant and dissimilar that Max/Lando Austria one is to the Lewis/Max Hungary one.

 

1. When Lando dive bombs, Max is on the very outside and well before the normal turn in point but Max doesn’t cover Lando by going defensive with an early turn in. It’s impossible to know if Max knew/saw Lando coming and decided not to cover it because he knew Lando would have his exit compromised so Max just focused on getting the exit; or whether Max didn’t even know Lando was coming. I suspect the former as Max got the good exit and got the position back in the following corner. Grip, tyre, car performance levels are all similar between the Red Bull and McLaren.

When Max dive bombs, Lewis is on the outside and sees Max coming and Lewis moves slowly but steadily covering the inside partially combining it with a very early turn in. There was significant grip and tyre delta between the two cars at that stage of the race. Lewis knew he couldn’t just go for a wide entry and cut back for a better exit to get the position back.

 

2. When Lando dive bombed there is 3/4 of a car width between Max and Lando because Lando gave extra margin and Max didn’t move early.

When Max dive bombed, Lewis moving forced Max into an acute angle to the corner and there was almost zero margin between their two cars side by side.

 

So the situations are completely different. Their goals were different. Max prioritised a great exit to capitalise on Lando getting a poorer exit without trying to compromise Lando’s line. Lewis also needed to get a good exit but knew that alone wouldn’t work unless he also forced Verstappen to compromise his line.

 

I think we’re all generally in agreement pre-contact of Max, his intentions and his car positioning, and Lewis, his intentions and his car positioning. The disagreement now really is simply - did Lewis know Max had locked up and was going straight on across his path and continued to keep steering on his line knowing that would result in contact?

 

As my previous post above, given the very small margins in the hard racing on show, where their tyres were side by side with almost no space between them, it’s obvious that Lewis had less than 0.1 seconds i.e less than one tenth of a second to react between noticing Verstappen’s lock up and trajectory change, to the contact occurring. In my post above, my approximate calculation came to 0.05 seconds or less than half a tenth. This is a pretty simple calculation based on the speed they are entering into the corner about 180 kph, and the time taken from the first signal to Hamilton that Verstappen was no longer going to go around the corner i.e the smoke coming off the top off Verstappen’s left front tyre as it locked up, to the time of impact using the wheelbase of a F1 car - less than 4 metres, taking into account that Verstappen’s front left tyre was already well ahead of Hamilton’s right front tyre when Max’s lock up first became visible to Lewis.

 

That half a tenth is the time to impact, so Hamilton actually would have had to react before that to avoid the impact. I really think people are being fooled by the slow motion and hindsight.

[JBJ]

What´s so hard to comprehend, Max screwed up and payed for it. 10 pages and people still think 

it´s Lewis fault 

All you guys that keep defending Max are real hypocrites because this is how he defends himself but much more 

aggressive

Nowhere have I said Max wasn't at fault
See the post below yours " Max screwed up. The contact is shared blame, it was ruled as racing incident (even Lewis agreed)."

[baddog]

I've always been clear, Max is, when things get tight, a dirty driver. In this incident he made an impossible stab relying on the other guy to just get out of the way. Then he messed it up. Anyone thinking I am a Max fan is wwaayy wrong.

 

That all said, I think in THIS CASE, Lewis had the chance to get out of it and decided to stick to his line and damn the torpedoes. I don't blame him one bit.

[Kao18]

Dont worry, no one and their mother thinks you’re a Max fan.

Although, highlighting this so often maybe secretly you are one after all.

And yes we all know when Lewis does something wrong or dubious he is just teaching lessons.

[flyboym3]

I watch it at full speed and he doesn't have time to react to max losing control, its less than 1 tenth.
At the start of a race when lights go green in Hungary everybody took more than half a second to react, and that's being fully focused on the lights right ahead of you and doing nothing else. Let that sink in for a moment.

Also Lewis says he's going to speak to the stewards as he disagrees with their conclusion:

Now F1 has reconvened at Spa for this weekend's Belgian GP, when asked if he was surprised by this statement, Hamilton replied: "Yes, very much so. I was really surprised by it.

"But considering one car was in control and one car was not in control at the time – [because] obviously when all the wheels are locked, you're not in control.

"And if you look at the replay, at the end of the whole move I'm very far from the apex. So, I've left, there's a lot of room on the right-hand side. So, I really was very surprised.

"I don't know who typed it up, but probably, yeah that will be a question when I speak to them at some stage."

Edited by flyboym3, 27 July 2024 - 06:56.

[Benchulo]

Dont worry, no one and their mother thinks you’re a Max fan.

Although, highlighting this so often maybe secretly you are one after all.

And yes we all know when Lewis does something wrong or dubious he is just teaching lessons.

Lewis did nothing wrong or dubious in Hungary, regards to the collision. It's quite funny to see people trying to appropriate blame on Hamilton for something Verstappen could have completely avoided if he had kept a cool head.

Edited by Benchulo, 27 July 2024 - 07:02.

[gillesfan76]

I've always been clear, Max is, when things get tight, a dirty driver. In this incident he made an impossible stab relying on the other guy to just get out of the way. Then he messed it up. Anyone thinking I am a Max fan is wwaayy wrong.

 

That all said, I think in THIS CASE, Lewis had the chance to get out of it and decided to stick to his line and damn the torpedoes. I don't blame him one bit.

 

I agree with this, including that Lewis decided to stick to his line and damn the torpedoes. Also, I still think that a nuance is being missed and no differentiation being made between a torpedo that is a “send it” but in control vs a torpedo that is a lock up, sliding straight and not in control. I think Lewis was ready to have contact if Max was in control and trying to bullying Lewis into changing his line. I don’t think Lewis was ready to have contact knowing that Max had locked up and was not in control.

 

prty and some others here are claiming Lewis was ready to have contact knowing Max was locked up sliding straight and out of control. I’m not sure if you are claiming that though.

[JBJ]

I've always been clear, Max is, when things get tight, a dirty driver. In this incident he made an impossible stab relying on the other guy to just get out of the way. Then he messed it up. Anyone thinking I am a Max fan is wwaayy wrong.

 

That all said, I think in THIS CASE, Lewis had the chance to get out of it and decided to stick to his line and damn the torpedoes. I don't blame him one bit.

Admit it, he's growing on you

[Kao18]

Lewis did nothing wrong or dubious in Hungary, regards to the collision. It's quite funny to see people trying to appropriate blame on Hamilton for something Verstappen could have completely avoided if he had kept a cool head.

As been highlighted many times now in extensive detail not just in this thread but also by Palmer and Brundle and the stewards (just to name a few) Lewis steered into Max which wasnt necessary, so yes he did something wrong and shared blame in the collision.

[TheFish]

Clearly Lewis should steer left on a right hand corner to give Max all the space he needs to complete the overtake even with 2 locked front wheels. Racing against Max isn't allowed - please wave him through, forcing him into mistakes is not appreciated.

[JBJ]

Clearly Lewis should steer left on a right hand corner to give Max all the space he needs to complete the overtake even with 2 locked front wheels. Racing against Max isn't allowed - please wave him through, forcing him into mistakes is not appreciated.

There is no grey, there is only black and white

[gillesfan76]

As been highlighted many times now in extensive detail not just in this thread but also by Palmer and Brundle and the stewards (just to name a few) Lewis steered into Max which wasnt necessary, so yes he did something wrong and shared blame in the collision.

 

Palmer, Brundle nor yourself have considered whether Lewis knew, early enough to react to, that Max had stopped turning into the corner. People think an F1 driver can react within half a tenth of a second?

[Kao18]

Palmer, Brundle nor yourself have considered whether Lewis knew, early enough to react to, that Max had stopped turning into the corner. People think an F1 driver can react within half a tenth of a second?

 

He did react within half a tenth of a second, just not the right way. Dont know why that is so hard to accept. 

 

Does not mean Max didnt lose control by locking up, he did. He fff'éd up. Now whether that was because Lewis squeezed him or he was going to lock up anyway is open for debate but at the very least the whole thing was an overly optimistic somewhat desperate divebomb, a misjudgement certainly, but nothing we havent seen before let alone dirty.

[gillesfan76]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here are 8 photos of the view from Lewis’ onboard showing as close to frame by frame as I could get. At which number photo do people think that Lewis should have realised that Max was no longer turning into the corner and out of control, and hence Lewis should have decided to abandon fighting for the corner and opened up steering?

Edited by gillesfan76, 27 July 2024 - 08:19.

[Benchulo]

As been highlighted many times now in extensive detail not just in this thread but also by Palmer and Brundle and the stewards (just to name a few) Lewis steered into Max which wasnt necessary, so yes he did something wrong and shared blame in the collision.

Hamilton didn't steer into Max. He was steering into the right hand corner as usual, which he was completely entitled to. Max lost his patience and went for a block pass, while Hamilton was turning.

You can only blame someone, if they have done something they shouldn't have done. Palmer's analysis is one sided on this incident, he says that Verstappen has the right for a divebomb, but apparently keeps silence on the fact that Hamilton have the right to turn in, and is not required to change his line.

Edited by Benchulo, 27 July 2024 - 08:17.

[prty]

Correct, Lewis couldn´t see Max right front tire being locked up when he was both behind him and to his right.
What Lewis could have seen was that Max was approaching on the inside and that there was a good amount of space between them, that´s probably why
he tighten the line towards Max.
Max made him fly all on his own colliding with Lewis.
What´s so hard to comprehend, Max screwed up and payed for it. 10 pages and people still think
it´s Lewis fault
All you guys that keep defending Max are real hypocrites because this is how he defends himself but much more
aggressive

Sorry, but you're making it all about seeing the lock up, but seeing the lock up is almost irrelevant when avoiding the collision in this case.

[gillesfan76]

So even if Lewis knew as early as photo 2, that Max was going to cut across his path, they are arriving at that corner at what speed - approximately 150 km/h or 41 metres per second and given the wheelbase (distance between front wheel and rear wheel) is only 3.6 m, then the time between photo 2 and point of contact of Max’s rear wheel to Lewis’ front wheel is only 0.086 seconds. Less than one tenth.

 

Fact is, Lewis could not have known as early as photo 2 that Max was going to cut across his path. I personally think it’s about photo 8, but even photo 5 would mean he had only 0.04 seconds to react before contact. Average F1 driver reaction time is about 0.2 seconds. People are dreaming.

[gillesfan76]

Sorry, but you're making it all about seeing the lock up, but seeing the lock up is almost irrelevant when avoiding the collision in this case.

 

So what is relevant for Lewis to notice that at some point Max is no longer turning the corner and is going to collide?

So at which photo in that sequence do you think he should realised Max was not in control and jumped out of Max’s way?

Edited by gillesfan76, 27 July 2024 - 08:31.

[prty]

Are you ignoring the fact that it “happening past Hamilton’s front wheel” also means that Verstappen’s rear wheel is less than 3 metres behind Hamilton’s front wheel, with both cars travelling 55 metres per second or 5 hundreths of a second. What’s the average human reaction time? I thought it would be common sense to actually consider these things before accusing a driver of intentionally turning into another driver with the clear intent of causing a collision especially when said driver has been racing for almost two decades without anywhere near a reputation as a dirty driver.

I thought this was also common sense, but 55 meters per second (200km/h) is with respect to a static observer. I hope you realize that Verstappen was not going 200km/h quicker than Hamilton. So your calculation is completely wrong. Their relative speed was what, 20km/h or 5 meters per second at most using your hypothesis? That's half a second reaction time, more than plenty. And the field of view is wider than in your hypothesis, so in reality it was way more than half a second to react.

Edited by prty, 27 July 2024 - 08:34.

[gillesfan76]

People arguing that Lewis could have avoided the accident are basically saying that well before photo 1, Lewis should have opened his steering up instead of racing Max side by side through the corner. F****** crazy.

Edited by gillesfan76, 27 July 2024 - 08:34.

[gillesfan76]

He did react within half a tenth of a second, just not the right way. Dont know why that is so hard to accept. 

 

Does not mean Max didnt lose control by locking up, he did. He fff'éd up. Now whether that was because Lewis squeezed him or he was going to lock up anyway is open for debate but at the very least the whole thing was an overly optimistic somewhat desperate divebomb, a misjudgement certainly, but nothing we havent seen before let alone dirty.

 

No one can react within half a tenth. You’re simply not thinking straight or you are ignorant of reaction times. F1 driver reaction times are 2 tenths on average. It’s not possible to react on sight to half a tenth. The fastest ever human reaction time recorded was for a sprinter and it was 101 milliseconds which is 1.01 tenths, reacting to a starting gun. I don’t know why that’s so hard to accept! It’s just basic science and data that people are ignoring to choose over their own pre-made narrative that is based on slow motion video and gut feeling rather than any consideration of known facts.

[P123]

People arguing that Lewis could have avoided the accident are basically saying that well before photo 1, Lewis should have opened his steering up instead of racing Max side by side through the corner. F****** crazy.

 

This is why this is at page 11. I think we had the same mantra post-Austria.  "Lando should have avoided it".  I'd contest that the head on, which shows the corner entry, says enough.  In most accidents both parties could always have done something different.  I also expect that in this instance, Max had no idea he was going to be skating straight on until he locked up.  The idea appears to be that it should have caught Lewis less by surprise than it did Max.

[PayasYouRace]

I do wonder how many of you have either sat in a racing car or in a decent sim and have some idea of what it’s like to be either of the driver’s positions in an incident like this.

 

Note to self, idea for summer break poll topic.

[Stephane]

I do wonder how many of you have either sat in a racing car or in a decent sim and have some idea of what it’s like to be either of the driver’s positions in an incident like this.

Note to self, idea for summer break poll topic.

I know from my experience in rental inddor karting, these contacts happen all the time and no one blinks an eye. Wheels are protected, though

[gillesfan76]

I thought this was also common sense, but 55 meters per second (200km/h) is with respect to a static observer. I hope you realize that Verstappen was not going 200km/h quicker than Hamilton. So your calculation is completely wrong. Their relative speed was what, 20km/h or 5 meters per second at most using your hypothesis? That's half a second reaction time, more than plenty. And the field of view is wider than in your hypothesis, so in reality it was way more than half a second to react.

 

Oh bugger yes you’re quite right, sorry my mistake. I stupidly didn’t think about relative speed.. Sorry for my frustration, it’s my mistake. But using my photo 8 which is when I think it becomes clear that Max is out of control, then Lewis still has only 0.25 seconds to react to it before collision. It’s still on the low side but yes, possible. Thanks.

[prty]

Oh bugger yes you’re quite right, sorry my mistake. I stupidly didn’t think about relative speed.. Sorry for my frustration, it’s my mistake. But using my photo 8 which is when I think it becomes clear that Max is out of control, then Lewis still has only 0.25 seconds to react to it before collision. It’s still on the low side but yes, possible. Thanks.

It's not that bad, this is just a forum
We agree anyway that Verstappen has most of the fault, and just disagree in that Hamilton was just a passenger.

[Bliman]

I thought this was also common sense, but 55 meters per second (200km/h) is with respect to a static observer. I hope you realize that Verstappen was not going 200km/h quicker than Hamilton. So your calculation is completely wrong. Their relative speed was what, 20km/h or 5 meters per second at most using your hypothesis? That's half a second reaction time, more than plenty. And the field of view is wider than in your hypothesis, so in reality it was way more than half a second to react.

You do know this relative speed doesn't matter when a corner is there? The corner doesn't care. You still have to take it. In these cases the drivers have to rely on each other to fight and therefore they have to anticipate what the other car would do. With only reacting you are often to late. Here Hamilton probably anticipated Max would make the corner. Drivers anticipate constantly and have to rely on the other driver all the time. Otherwise things would be very dangerous.

[Mc_Silver]

https://www.instagra...TE1NHQ1dWZxbw==

Was he penalised for this manoeuvre?

[New Britain]

This is why this is at page 11. I think we had the same mantra post-Austria.  "Lando should have avoided it".  I'd contest that the head on, which shows the corner entry, says enough.  In most accidents both parties could always have done something different.  I also expect that in this instance, Max had no idea he was going to be skating straight on until he locked up.  The idea appears to be that it should have caught Lewis less by surprise than it did Max.

It is probably literally true that Max did not know/expect that he would be skating straight on, but it was his responsibility to be in control of his car at at times, and surely he was aware that the nature of his entry speed, trajectory, and the presence of the other car meant that he had much less room than normal for mid-course corrections. He was knowingly increasing the risk of collision when he was not entitled to do so.