106 replies to this topic

[jonklug]

from FormulaUno:

 

Despite a struggling Red Bull, Andrea Stella's team knows that the next 11 races against Verstappen are a mountain. What has changed is that the top is now more visible , last year McLaren was 30” behind the dominant Red Bull, yesterday it won comfortably ahead, it is fair to say that if we compare the development path in a calendar year the Woking team has reduced the gap by 7/8 tenths, it is an astonishing result . The engineers have made impeccable use of the time available in the simulations, it is clear that they are reading the data in the correct way, the new tunnel is providing the quality necessary to implement the changes. The great virtue of the Hungarian MCL38 was to be the most balanced in the medium speed compromise where it gained 3 tenths on Red Bull , an advantage that also protected the tyres from degradation.

 

https://formu1a.uno/...i-sta-reagendo/

 

That's an insane gain in just 12 months. I struggle to remember such a turnaround in performance and I've been watching F1 since 1993 and constantly since 1997.

Edited by jonklug, 23 July 2024 - 14:35.

[Miles749]

from FormulaUno:

 

 

https://formu1a.uno/...i-sta-reagendo/

 

That's an insane gain in just 12 months. I struggle to remember such a turnaround in performance and I've been watching F1 constantly since 1993 and constantly since 1997.

 

McLaren got a couple of big name signings and their new wind tunnel/simulator. It seems to be working. 

[Mc_Silver]

from FormulaUno:


https://formu1a.uno/...i-sta-reagendo/

That's an insane gain in just 12 months. I struggle to remember such a turnaround in performance and I've been watching F1 constantly since 1993 and constantly since 1997.

Like in the good old days, development monster McLaren is back in the business...

[noikeee]

 

 

That's an insane gain in just 12 months. I struggle to remember such a turnaround in performance and I've been watching F1 constantly since 1993 and constantly since 1997.

 

Nah, that used to happen quite often, the difference is 7 tenths was nothing in the 90s, but now could make you overtake half the field...

[jacdaniel]

I still personally believe that something changed on Red Bull from Miami onwards.

You don’t just go from dominance to 2nd best on one weekend without something changing

[Dennista]

It's a combination of wind tunnel and personnel improvements for McLaren and RBR losing the the input from Newey. 

 

This is the first season since 2007 that Newey has not designed the in season upgrades. Very significant.

 

RBR had a lot of upgrades in Hungary and still unable to reclaim their dominance. Very telling even if its just track specific.

[pacificquay]

Rob Marshall was a very astute signing to be the icing on the cake

[Deeq]

Nah, that used to happen quite often, the difference is 7 tenths was nothing in the 90s, but now could make you overtake half the field...

Exactly, during the unrestricted testing era, seconds deficits were no hinder (within calendar year)!
Whats unique in this years revolution is the revolution i.e not 1 but 3 teams have nearly* erased the deficit of the start of the year to the leading team!
It could be as some speculate RBR has been humbled by FiA.

Oh btw RBR already achieved something similar in 2020/2021!, incidentally the end of the era also..

*) 2 nearly erased one definitely did(McLaren)

Edited by Deeq, 23 July 2024 - 10:59.

[SpeedRacer`]

I still personally believe that something changed on Red Bull from Miami onwards.

You don’t just go from dominance to 2nd best on one weekend without something changing

That's the race Newey announced his departure... and probably stepped back from the front line at that point.

[FirstnameLastname]

‘you don’t win with a customer engine’

McLaren spanking the Merc team… time to sell up & back the McLaren horse now they’ve lost Hamilton?

Maybe get Hamilton eyeing up a return to Woking after his Ferrari adventure

[Ali_G]

Nah, that used to happen quite often, the difference is 7 tenths was nothing in the 90s, but now could make you overtake half the field...

Yes, but it is crazy today. Back then such leaps could be made in performance as there was much more low hanging fruit available from a performance perspective.

I still think that Merc engine is better than the Honda. McLaren getting the chassis to close match RBR has given them a small edge.

[Laster]

I've read a lot of complaints over the passed couple years that the budget cap prevented teams from being able to introduce big upgrade and catch Red Bull. Glad to see that's been disproven this year.

[TauriJ]

‘you don’t win with a customer engine’

McLaren spanking the Merc team… time to sell up & back the McLaren horse now they’ve lost Hamilton?

Maybe get Hamilton eyeing up a return to Woking after his Ferrari adventure

 

‘you don’t win with a customer engine’

McLaren spanking the Merc team… time to sell up & back the McLaren horse now they’ve lost Hamilton?

Maybe get Hamilton eyeing up a return to Woking after his Ferrari adventure

Because its not an engine Formula anymore

[IrvTheSwerve]

from FormulaUno:

 

 

https://formu1a.uno/...i-sta-reagendo/

 

That's an insane gain in just 12 months. I struggle to remember such a turnaround in performance and I've been watching F1 constantly since 1993 and constantly since 1997.

 

Isn't that just watching F1 constantly since 1993? 

[CSF]

from FormulaUno:

 

 

https://formu1a.uno/...i-sta-reagendo/

 

That's an insane gain in just 12 months. I struggle to remember such a turnaround in performance and I've been watching F1 constantly since 1993 and constantly since 1997.

 

 

McLaren in 2009 I guess. 

[Miles749]

McLaren in 2023 also had a huge upgrade. Probably even bigger performance gain than in 2024 but their base in 2024 was higher. 

[sterlingfan2000]

McLaren haven't brought any Upgrades since Miami where Ferrari , Mercedes and Redbull used most of their budget already.

No wonder Helmut Marko was stressed on Sunday in a interview

[SpeedRacer`]

Arrows in 1997 almost DNQ to almost winning a race (and Hill almost on pole at Jerez as well).

 

Jaguar in 2002 from the worst car to being on the podium.

[geralt]

It really looks like the budget cap and the reduced wind tunnel time have worked superbly well - fair play to F1 for once

[George Costanza]

from FormulaUno:


https://formu1a.uno/...i-sta-reagendo/

That's an insane gain in just 12 months. I struggle to remember such a turnaround in performance and I've been watching F1 constantly since 1993 and constantly since 1997.

This happened in 1998 in the same season. In a much more extreme way.

Ferrari (Eddie Irvine) was 1.7 seconds behind McLaren in Australia 1998 in qualifying. Schumacher was 0.7 seconds slower.

By the end of the season they were the fastest car, IMHO.

1999 was the same thing, McLaren were even quicker in the beginning.

Edited by George Costanza, 23 July 2024 - 14:31.

[George Costanza]

It's a combination of wind tunnel and personnel improvements for McLaren and RBR losing the the input from Newey.

This is the first season since 2007 that Newey has not designed the in season upgrades. Very significant.

RBR had a lot of upgrades in Hungary and still unable to reclaim their dominance. Very telling even if its just track specific.

Yes, losing Adrian is very much it.

[George Costanza]

This isn't a surprise given Red Bull losing Adrian.

[pacificquay]

This happened in 1998 in the same season. In a much more extreme way.

Ferrari (Eddie Irvine) was 1.7 seconds behind McLaren in Australia 1998 in qualifying. Schumacher was 0.7 seconds slower.

By the end of the season they were the fastest car.

That was largely down to gains by Goodyear in the tyre war

[jonklug]

Nah, that used to happen quite often, the difference is 7 tenths was nothing in the 90s, but now could make you overtake half the field...

 

Yea well I was a kid, but let's say in modern times, it's kind of unheard of.

[Augurk]

McLaren have certainly made a big jump forward, but it seems it is compounded by the Red Bull implosion that is happening.

Hard to distinguish between the two.

[Anderis]

Yea well I was a kid, but let's say in modern times, it's kind of unheard of.

No, it's not. 7/8 tenths in 12 months is really nothing unusual. Multiple examples if you want to search for them.

First one that comes to my mind. In mid 2020 Red Bull was still around a second behind Mercedes and by early 2021 they were equal if not slightly ahead.

In late 2014, Ferrari was 1-2 seconds behind Mercedes and by early 2015 they were sometimes challenging Mercedes.

 

I'm sure there are plenty more of examples if you search for them.

Edited by Anderis, 23 July 2024 - 14:48.

[rodlamas]

No, it's not. 7/8 tenths in 12 months is really nothing unusual. Multiple examples if you want to search for them.
First one that comes to my mind. In mid 2020 Red Bull was still around a second behind Mercedes and by early 2021 they were equal if not slightly ahead.
In late 2014, Ferrari was 1-2 seconds behind Mercedes and by early 2015 they were sometimes challenging Mercedes.

I'm sure there are plenty more of examples if you search for them.

Different scenarios. Regulations changed from 2020 into 2021 and 2014 into 2015 that was the 2nd year of the new regulations and remember, engines were fixed in 2014.

[JL14]

No, it's not. 7/8 tenths in 12 months is really nothing unusual. Multiple examples if you want to search for them.

First one that comes to my mind. In mid 2020 Red Bull was still around a second behind Mercedes and by early 2021 they were equal if not slightly ahead.

In late 2014, Ferrari was 1-2 seconds behind Mercedes and by early 2015 they were sometimes challenging Mercedes.

 

I'm sure there are plenty more of examples if you search for them.

 

I believe those are witth rule changes designed to cut back the advantage

[Anderis]

Different scenarios. Regulations changed from 2020 into 2021 and 2014 into 2015 that was the 2nd year of the new regulations and remember, engines were fixed in 2014.

It's impossible to find two identical scenarios if you compare accross the years. You would be hard-pressed to find any examples that can't be discounted by "new regulations" because between 1995 and 2017 there have been smaller or bigger regulation tweaks every 2-3 years, so how is it even possible to establish what's a norm under stable regulations. My point still stands. It's been happening a lot even in modern times.

[Gravelngrass]

First of all, where is that 0.7 secs figure coming from?

[Maustinsj]

First of all, where is that 0.7 secs figure coming from?

 

From the opening post 

[DevilDare]

2009 McLaren were even further behind at the start of the season and won by round 10 (Hungary coincidentally). 

[Dalton007]

Adrian carrying 8 tenths in his pocket... going to the highest bidder.... going once, going twice... 

[renzmann]

The Newey hypothesis is not very convincing. RBR losing ground to the competition has started when Newey was still there.

 

I reckon most of all it's just great work by McLaren. On RBR's side, I'd say Horner is the root of all that's going wrong at RBR. You don't work with full commitment if you know your boss is a jerk.

[George Costanza]

The Newey hypothesis is not very convincing. RBR losing ground to the competition has started when Newey was still there.

I reckon most of all it's just great work by McLaren. On RBR's side, I'd say Horner is the root of all that's going wrong at RBR. You don't work with full commitment if you know your boss is a jerk.

If you follow history of F1, especially since 1990, the Adrian factor is huge.

[MikeTekRacing]

The Newey hypothesis is not very convincing. RBR losing ground to the competition has started when Newey was still there.

 

I reckon most of all it's just great work by McLaren. On RBR's side, I'd say Horner is the root of all that's going wrong at RBR. You don't work with full commitment if you know your boss is a jerk.

it's great work from them plus a penalty system currently for winning that restricts development.

 

Catching up is built in the current rules (does not diminish one bit the great work Mclaren did). 

[MikeTekRacing]

If you follow history of F1, especially since 1990, the Adrian factor is huge.

They started being close and catching up with Newey being there. The performance on track does not suddenly go away the day Newey announces he leaves. 

[Alfisti]

I have never seen a team go from nowhere to legit front runners like McLaren has from early 2023 to mid 2024. Ever. 

[MikeTekRacing]

I have never seen a team go from nowhere to legit front runners like McLaren has from early 2023 to mid 2024. Ever. 

Honda/Brawn 2008-2009?

[Mc_Silver]

I have never seen a team go from nowhere to legit front runners like McLaren has from early 2023 to mid 2024. Ever.

Considering 2024 is the 3rd year of the regulations. It's mighty impressive really.

[Mc_Silver]

Honda/Brawn 2008-2009?

2008 and 2009 regulations were completely different. Brawn found a loophole in the regulation and benefitted from it until mid season. That year McLaren was one of the slowest team and by round 10 Lewis won the first race of the season for McLaren which was another mighty impressive development showdown from the team.

[MikeTekRacing]

The loophole was big, but not the only reason Brawn were in front.

Williams and Toyota ran similar diffusers from day 1

[Mc_Silver]

The loophole was big, but not the only reason Brawn were in front.
Williams and Toyota ran similar diffusers from day 1

Apples and oranges. I mean it's completely different story. There's a regulation change and you cannot say Honda was back of the grid in 2008 and in 2009 they destroyed the field.

Edited by Mc_Silver, 23 July 2024 - 18:34.

[rodlamas]

This happened in 1998 in the same season. In a much more extreme way.

Ferrari (Eddie Irvine) was 1.7 seconds behind McLaren in Australia 1998 in qualifying. Schumacher was 0.7 seconds slower.

By the end of the season they were the fastest car, IMHO.

1999 was the same thing, McLaren were even quicker in the beginning.

With unlimited testing you can close the gaps more easily.

[Mc_Silver]

With unlimited testing you can close the gaps more easily.

+ budget...

[MikeTekRacing]

it depends who is playing catch up.

If the team with unlimited testing and budget is in front, good luck chasing them. Never going to happen.

 

Under similar budget with success penalty catching up is way easier.

Convergence is built in

[Alfisti]

Honda/Brawn 2008-2009?

Serious, serious reg change man. 

[MikeTekRacing]

Serious, serious reg change man. 

True, but the question was when it last happened. 

Of course there are always reasons that explain the swing.

Regulation change was then. 

[MikeTekRacing]

With unlimited testing you can close the gaps more easily.

this is not true unless you are the one with unlimited money and the leader has limited money.

if the leader is the one with the best facilities, most people, private test track and everything - you are NEVER going to catch up.

and if both the leader and follower have unlimited money - the small teams are left behind

[Brawn BGP 001]

This happened in 1998 in the same season. In a much more extreme way.

Ferrari (Eddie Irvine) was 1.7 seconds behind McLaren in Australia 1998 in qualifying. Schumacher was 0.7 seconds slower.

By the end of the season they were the fastest car, IMHO.

1999 was the same thing, McLaren were even quicker in the beginning.

To be fair, there was a tyre war back then and Goodyear got their act together.