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Alpine looking to make engine, gearbox and suspension deal with Mercedes, suggests Autosport


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#51 Sterzo

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Posted 23 July 2024 - 20:45

But it makes no sense really to sell the team, it's worth a fortune and generates money.

They made the mistake not getting a customer for their engines, though.

The team only brings in a fortune if you sell it.

 

I confess to ignorance about how engine manufacturing and development costs are restricted, in particular how capital expenditure on the necessary plant is handled. But does the Alpine team plus Renault's engine operation together really make a significant profit? I doubt it.

 

There's also the more subjective question of the directors' opinion on the relevance of the F1 team to their daily business. The marketing value is questionable, and it might be they see the troubled team as a distraction from their core business of making and selling road cars, which is not easy at present.



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#52 AustinF1

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Posted 23 July 2024 - 20:48

Why would Mercedes want Alpine engines? 

 

 

I kid. :p



#53 Viryfan

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Posted 23 July 2024 - 20:59

So staff were about the plans at midday.
They can't announce the deal with Merc until they reach an agreement with unions through CSE (Conseil Social et Économique) which will happen July 30th.

Krief spoke to the workers (not Famin) telling about the plans and how employement would not be affected (which is complete bullshit as 50% of the employees are external workers) as they would redeployed elsewhere.

Krief announced the renewal of the agreement with Nissan for FE gen 4, Dakar project with Dacia and that they might break the contract with Mechachrome for WEC engine.

Employees knew somehow it was coming as crossover projects between FE and 2026 F1 engine were cancelled plus the lack of petroleum partner.

This is a sad sad day.

50 years after A500, the A500 is buried into grave finally.

Edited by Viryfan, 23 July 2024 - 21:04.


#54 FLB

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Posted 23 July 2024 - 21:22

So staff were about the plans at midday.
They can't announce the deal with Merc until they reach an agreement with unions through CSE (Conseil Social et Économique) which will happen July 30th.

Krief spoke to the workers (not Famin) telling about the plans and how employement would not be affected (which is complete bullshit as 50% of the employees are external workers) as they would redeployed elsewhere.

Krief announced the renewal of the agreement with Nissan for FE gen 4, Dakar project with Dacia and that they might break the contract with Mechachrome for WEC engine.

Employees knew somehow it was coming as crossover projects between FE and 2026 F1 engine were cancelled plus the lack of petroleum partner.

This is a sad sad day.

50 years after A500, the A500 is buried into grave finally.

I wonder how this is going to fly with Bercy considering the French state still has 15% of Groupe Renault. 

 

I feel exacly the same way as I did late in the summer of 1985, when Georges Besse sais they wre pulling out of F1 for financial reasons. That turned out to be the best thing that could possibly have happened, because the celllule de veille that was left had enough freedom to get to work on something else (which turned out to be the V10).

 

 

This isn't an end. That is a step towards something else.


Edited by FLB, 23 July 2024 - 22:21.


#55 pdac

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Posted 23 July 2024 - 21:29

This is the bunch that rebranded the team to Alpine to begin with...

 

... and not because they wanted to promote the Alpine brand.



#56 Joseki

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Posted 23 July 2024 - 21:39

So staff were about the plans at midday.
They can't announce the deal with Merc until they reach an agreement with unions through CSE (Conseil Social et Économique) which will happen July 30th.

Krief spoke to the workers (not Famin) telling about the plans and how employement would not be affected (which is complete bullshit as 50% of the employees are external workers) as they would redeployed elsewhere.

Krief announced the renewal of the agreement with Nissan for FE gen 4, Dakar project with Dacia and that they might break the contract with Mechachrome for WEC engine.

Employees knew somehow it was coming as crossover projects between FE and 2026 F1 engine were cancelled plus the lack of petroleum partner.

This is a sad sad day.

50 years after A500, the A500 is buried into grave finally.

Building the WEC engine in house would be a good way to keep at least some of the people employeed and part of the "DNA" of Viry alive.



#57 George Costanza

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Posted 23 July 2024 - 21:42

Aside from 2 world championships and a bunch of wins?


Let's see Renault engines win championships from 1992-1997, and of course 2005-2006, and with Red Bull, they won 12 World Championships. Quite a great record.

#58 Gambelli

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Posted 23 July 2024 - 22:43

I can't see how you can possibly market this. "Alpine, we build the car but our engine is crap, so we use a Merc" Ya that will sell a lot of your cars and add to your brand prestige.

 

Just sell the team

 

Alpine are going electric anyway so it doesn't much matter what's in the back of their F1 car I suppose



#59 Fastcake

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Posted 23 July 2024 - 22:50

Renault engines have been a constant in F1 for decades now. Even with the periodic rebrands or corporate Renault pretending they aren't actually part of Formula One, they've been a constant, longer than most of the other teams and manufacturers.

 

In modern F1 it feels like this will be overlooked, but it's a big departure, one that feels pretty certain to happen now.



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#60 Grippy

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Posted 23 July 2024 - 22:51

Let's see Renault engines win championships from 1992-1997, and of course 2005-2006, and with Red Bull, they won 12 World Championships. Quite a great record.

Yeah, I had a baseball cap with "Renault 3x F1 Champions" back in the '90s.



#61 teejay

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Posted 24 July 2024 - 02:10

If it allows them to focus on executing a car and a race team, so be it. 

 

Not the first time we've seen cross badging. 

 

As for selling, why? it's huge advertising and can almost be certain the team is cash positive in this current age. 



#62 Beri

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Posted 24 July 2024 - 07:20

Dutch newsoutlet De Telegraaf has now gone on record stating "Renault will stop manufacturing F1 engines for Alpine"

 

Renault stopt in Formule 1 met maken motoren voor Alpine | Autosport | Telegraaf.nl

 

I have not really read any solid announcements on this. But De Telegraaf usually is correct on their F1 articles. Horner and his escapades, for instance, were brought by De Telegraaf.



#63 Clatter

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Posted 24 July 2024 - 07:26

So if Renault pull their engines is there any penalty? Did the manufacturers sign up to supply for a specific period when they signed up to the 2026 rules?

#64 Beri

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Posted 24 July 2024 - 07:27

Good question. I dont know.



#65 ATM

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Posted 24 July 2024 - 07:33

And would such a no-show penalty apply if they brand a Mercedes engine as Alpine, or Renault?

#66 babbel

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Posted 24 July 2024 - 07:40

So if Renault pull their engines is there any penalty? Did the manufacturers sign up to supply for a specific period when they signed up to the 2026 rules?


They can still offer it for a year, there are just no takers. I doubt that’s going to be a problem

#67 BRG

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Posted 24 July 2024 - 09:13

Oooh. I forgot that Audi is doing an engine as well!

Not to mention GM (Cadillac).



#68 Beri

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Posted 24 July 2024 - 09:21

Not to mention GM (Cadillac).

 

They havent officially committed, have they?



#69 Goron3

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Posted 24 July 2024 - 09:23

They havent officially committed, have they?


They have an agreement for 2028 which I believe has also been confirmed by the FIA.

#70 pdac

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Posted 24 July 2024 - 09:40

So if Renault pull their engines is there any penalty? Did the manufacturers sign up to supply for a specific period when they signed up to the 2026 rules?

 

The first thing to do is remove any customers. Without customers, the only problem would be if the FIA had a team that needs a supply. Where is the FIA going to find one of those?



#71 Clatter

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Posted 24 July 2024 - 09:59

They have an agreement for 2028 which I believe has also been confirmed by the FIA.

 


No they don't. FOM only said they would look at the situation again in 2028.

#72 Clatter

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Posted 24 July 2024 - 10:08

The first thing to do is remove any customers. Without customers, the only problem would be if the FIA had a team that needs a supply. Where is the FIA going to find one of those?

 


That would fall to Honda, as they will be supplying the least number of teams.

#73 jcbc3

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Posted 24 July 2024 - 10:16

Do we know for sure that VCARB are getting the Red Bull-Ford engine the first year?



#74 Clatter

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Posted 24 July 2024 - 10:21

Do we know for sure that VCARB are getting the Red Bull-Ford engine the first year?

 


AFAIK they don't have any other PU supply in place for 2026, and Honda will have moved over to Aston.

#75 Secretariat

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Posted 24 July 2024 - 10:49

One of things brought up in an associated thread to Alpine power units vs. customer units was Renault's creation of Ampere and HORSE Powertrain Limited, a joint venture with Geely. I guess questions remain about how this figures into things, if at all.

 

https://forums.autos...026/?p=10631925

https://forums.autos...026/?p=10632120



#76 Anja

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Posted 24 July 2024 - 10:51

Do we know for sure that VCARB are getting the Red Bull-Ford engine the first year?

 

I think so, yes: https://www.formula1...0b7Iw6C79l1YQ9b

 

 

 

Starting in 2023, Ford and Red Bull Powertrains – the Milton Keynes team’s dedicated engine division – will develop a next-gen power unit to supply both Red Bull Racing and the sister AlphaTauri operation from 2026 until at least 2030.

 

Red Bull and Ford would be daft not to do this, no easier way to get twice the data on your brand new engine. 



#77 Bendo

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Posted 24 July 2024 - 11:21

They can still offer it for a year, there are just no takers. I doubt that’s going to be a problem


True. But isnt the plan to take it next year as well. If thats the case if the Renault PU is available, Mercedes cannot supply them next year as they would be over their supply quota. They could only supply them next year if Renault officially pull out.

#78 JimmyClark

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Posted 24 July 2024 - 11:38

Some insight from Saward...
 
 
 

The other manufacturer who is making a muddle in F1 is Renault and while the Alpine team’s executive advisor Flavio Briatore is telling people that he has an agreement with Mercedes for a supply of engines in 2026, there are a few problems that may result from this. Briatore is telling people this because he has offered Carlos Sainz a drive and Sainz is interested if there are Mercedes engines, but before he signs anything he wants guarantees, such as an engine contract. These things tend to take weeks, particularly in France during the holiday season, when very little is ever done. It is doubtful that anything will even be drafted by corporate lawyers before August 15 and then there is likely to be some back and forth required on details, so it is virtually impossible to change things for 2025.
 
The other slight problem is that no-one has told the Renault engine department in Viry-Chatillon about what is happening and they are not happy reading in the media that their project is being stopped. There are very real fears in the team that this will lead to a strike and that Alpine could face a situation of not having engines at some races this year. The Renault management has not handled this well and the unions will have no qualms about giving them a public spanking to their sins… It will take some fast talking to solve this problem…

https://joesaward.wo...-sachsenhausen/

Oh dear.

Edited by JimmyClark, 24 July 2024 - 11:38.


#79 Nathan

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Posted 24 July 2024 - 12:28

FWIW, a engine deal with Mercedes is a UK business signing a contract with a UK business.  Can't they let their French lawyers sit on the stony beaches?



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#80 JL14

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Posted 25 July 2024 - 13:46

On the The Race podcast they talked about the move to a customer team is not only about (short term) performance or financial reasons, but that this is a move to clear the way for a (potential) selling of the team if 2026 doesn't go according to plan. Not being attached to Viry and an engine, but it being a stand-alone chassis team, it's way easier to sell.

When Briatore came on board, the team was assured it was not for sale, but not many believe that (anymore).



#81 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 25 July 2024 - 16:20

Their yearly new team principal change is upcoming too:

https://www.motorspo...famin/10638697/

#82 juicy sushi

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Posted 25 July 2024 - 16:27

I wonder how this is going to fly with Bercy considering the French state still has 15% of Groupe Renault. 

 

I feel exacly the same way as I did late in the summer of 1985, when Georges Besse sais they wre pulling out of F1 for financial reasons. That turned out to be the best thing that could possibly have happened, because the celllule de veille that was left had enough freedom to get to work on something else (which turned out to be the V10).

 

 

This isn't an end. That is a step towards something else.

I guess bringing the WEC program in-house, and going all-in on that as Alpine's marketing vehicle while selling Enstone off is the likely future.  



#83 JL14

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Posted 23 August 2024 - 16:41

The one good thing about the potential engine switch, is we got to hear some info that's normally not shared by teams:

 

- More than a hundred disruptive concepts were studied, nearly a third of which demonstrated significant performance on the test bench and should be introduced on the future Alpine engine: the AR26.

- The target was to start the first Alpine 2026 engine at the end of the first half of 2024, one and a half years after the genesis of the project.

- On 26 June 2024, the RE26A, the name given to the first 'factory' version of the AR26, carried out its first start-up on engine bench no. 6 at Viry-Chatillon, thus marking a success in terms of the targeted deadline.

- On this first engine, almost a third of the performance concepts, previously validated on the system bench, are still absent, planned for introduction before the end of 2024. However, the first test results are promising.”

The test engine was exceeding 400kW output during its first hours of running – which was close to the performance objective laid down for the first 2026 race.

- It has a thermal efficiency of 48% and had suffered no major reliability problems.

- It is 12 percent shorter than the current power unit Alpine was using, which offered “significant room” for improved chassis integration.

- Furthermore, it is below the minimum weight laid down in the regulations, which meant Alpine could make use of ballast.

- The RE26A is seen by all the Viry-Chatillon teams as a great success, a well-born engine with a clear potential, a year and a half from the first race, to raise the ambitions of Alpine F1 team.

Renault engine staff call for rethink over F1 engine ‘betrayal’ (motorsport.com)


Edited by JL14, 23 August 2024 - 16:46.


#84 LolaB0860

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Posted 23 August 2024 - 19:54

“The reason given is a significant direct saving, trading development costs of $120 million for $17 million in annual supply.”

 

Mmm...

 

Anyway... there's still hope of Renault staying I guess. It's good to hear voiced opinions rather than all of the staff babbling PR



#85 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 23 August 2024 - 23:18

I mean… pay for one of the best engines available for £17mil or spend £120mil making your own shittier one… does seem a quick calculation doesn’t it

#86 kumo7

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Posted 24 August 2024 - 03:35

I mean… pay for one of the best engines available for £17mil or spend £120mil making your own shittier one… does seem a quick calculation doesn’t it

 

What is your take on Renault being a car maker and have to have its long term aim to be set.



#87 Bendo

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Posted 24 August 2024 - 09:43

What is your take on Renault being a car maker and have to have its long term aim to be set.


As they don't want to invest in the team, it's currently an embarrassment for them. Get customer engines and they can offload the team for a decent sum.

#88 ARTGP

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Posted 24 August 2024 - 15:51

Flavio Briatore insists Alpine is not for sale and says Renault chairman Luca de Meo “never wants to sell the team”.“No, there is nothing for sale,” Briatore said.
 “Everything, we buy. If there’s any opportunity we’d buy another Formula 1 team! Some things are very clear. Luca de Meo never wants to sell the team. Question finito.”

 
https://racer.com/20...lpine-briatore/

#89 ARTGP

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Posted 24 August 2024 - 15:53

As they don't want to invest in the team, it's currently an embarrassment for them. Get customer engines and they can offload the team for a decent sum.


F1 teams make money. Why would Renault sell it? The speculation about the team sale is nonsense. The team cost them nothing. The engine cost them something, which is why they are considering a switch to Mercedes.

Edited by ARTGP, 24 August 2024 - 15:53.


#90 Junky

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Posted 24 August 2024 - 16:02

I just can't stand Alpine/Renault management, right now. And this has nothing to do with Briatore, to be honest. Sell the team and go the f*** away.



#91 pdac

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Posted 25 August 2024 - 08:38

F1 teams make money. Why would Renault sell it? The speculation about the team sale is nonsense. The team cost them nothing. The engine cost them something, which is why they are considering a switch to Mercedes.

 

Maybe the parent company needs the capital for some big plan.



#92 Sterzo

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Posted 25 August 2024 - 10:19

F1 teams make money. Why would Renault sell it?

Distraction from the core business. (Seen as a big factor by the directors in businesses I worked for). Plus, it's a marketing exercise which fails to create a positive vibe for the company - it has projected mediocrity and lack of direction for years now.

 

The correct question is: why would Renault want a floundering F1 team?