62 replies to this topic

[JL14]

Young driver F1 race proposal revealed - The Race (the-race.com)

 

A proposal for a standalone Formula 1 sprint race for young drivers is being discussed.

The idea would be for a mini-event in the days after the season finale involving practice, qualifying and a sprint race. It would be in addition to the usual one-day post-season Abu Dhabi test.

After the Wildcard idea was dismissed, the conversation continued. A post-season standalone race was suggested, and tentatively received support from all stakeholders - at least in principle.

[FLB]

So... A non-championship race, essentially?

[Anja]

Doing this after the season's end is definitely the easiest and most realistic solution, but hardly ideal for the purpose of young drivers showcasing their talent to hopefully land a seat - as the teams want their lineups signed long before that. Although that reasoning isn't stopping them from ending the F2 season in Abu Dhabi year after year, so who cares about such details  

Edited by Anja, 29 July 2024 - 14:07.

[Secretariat]

For modern times, not a bad idea in and of itself. What would make it especially useful long term for young drivers is a standard exit clause in their junior driver development contracts that also them to move if there is interest, particularly after a race performance. We have seen already someone like Lawson in purgatory even after they have shown some potential in F1 machinery.  

[Risil]

What problem is the FIA trying to solve here? 

[Secretariat]

What problem is the FIA trying to solve here? 

In my opinion, it is the log jam of young drivers not getting opportunities. However. this can also be solved by allowing a few more teams. Alas, we know how the enterprise currently feels about more competition.

[Jbleroi]

call it F2, Oh wait a minute...... 

[Risil]

I don't imagine Toto Wolff is sitting around thinking "I could replace Lewis with Andrea Antonelli, but until I see him take part in a sprint race with 19 other drivers who have never raced in F1 I can't be sure".

[Gravelngrass]

One sprint race is going to be enough to give these guys the practice they so desperately need? Right…

[ANF]

Young driver F1 race proposal revealed - The Race (the-race.com)
 
A proposal for a standalone Formula 1 sprint race for young drivers is being discussed.
The idea would be for a mini-event in the days after the season finale involving practice, qualifying and a sprint race. It would be in addition to the usual one-day post-season Abu Dhabi test.
After the Wildcard idea was dismissed, the conversation continued. A post-season standalone race was suggested, and tentatively received support from all stakeholders - at least in principle.

Tentatively – at least in principle.
Or in other words: "Sure, whatever, now let's move on to the next topic".

[Muppetmad]

To put it politely, this seems like a half-hearted solution to the challenges of giving young drivers track time.

[pdac]

The driver log jam could be solved by creating more series of similar status to F1. But, even if that were to happen, people would still complain that their favourites could not get into F1. So maybe the solution is to have less professional racing drivers.

[Secretariat]

I don't imagine Toto Wolff is sitting around thinking "I could replace Lewis with Andrea Antonelli, but until I see him take part in a sprint race with 19 other drivers who have never raced in F1 I can't be sure".

 

I think it is fair to say this is an extreme example. In my opinion, more relevant examples would be choosing Doohan instead of Zhou or any combination of mid-field driver and team or reserve driver for a "more prominent" team like Vesti to Aston Martin. It is also why I would advocate for junior driver exit clauses.

 

EDIT: Also, unrelated to opportunities. Given that it seems to be race in every sense. I suppose it is possibly more revenue for the teams in the same way NFL pre-season games are added revenue for those teams.

Edited by Secretariat, 29 July 2024 - 14:52.

[mclarensmps]

The young driver sprint should be in the middle of the season, not around testing time, and teams should field 1 regular driver and 1 young driver in the sprint so we have a full grid. 

[LolaB0860]

Standalone sprint race... in the world center of racing Abu Dhabi in December... probably with limited TV coverage... with zero benchmarks to anything... yeah this sounds very exciting

Edited by LolaB0860, 29 July 2024 - 15:02.

[pdac]

They are trying to pretend this business that is F1 is really a sport. The teams will not be fooled.

[PayasYouRace]

The driver log jam could be solved by creating more series of similar status to F1. But, even if that were to happen, people would still complain that their favourites could not get into F1. So maybe the solution is to have less professional racing drivers.

Anything but expanding the grid, eh?

[Ruusperi]

How many billions Abu Dhabi is paying for this glory race?

[Hinkypunk]

And what about the budget? 20 more or less experienced rookies in a car they never raced before? 
Sounds like an expensive event for me...

[LolaB0860]

How many billions Abu Dhabi is paying for this glory race?

 

Abu Dhabi managed to lure in many cash-hungry influencers to watch and talk about the much celebrated Abu Dhabi Autonomous Racing League event, so I'm sure they can do the same here

[Anderis]

The young driver sprint should be in the middle of the season, not around testing time, and teams should field 1 regular driver and 1 young driver in the sprint so we have a full grid. 

The middle of the season is precarious because the teams will be afraid to lose car parts due to crashes etc. This may incentivise them to be overly cautious and not allow the young drivers to push the limits properly etc.

 

Also I don't know what the point is to have 1 regular driver and 1 young driver. This generates additional problems and questions that would need to be answered. 

[Sterzo]

Also I don't know what the point is to have 1 regular driver and 1 young driver. This generates additional problems and questions that would need to be answered. 

It would provide a gauge for the newcomers by racing in a field against experienced drivers. Long ago, that was the appeal of F2. You'd race against other youngsters in F3, then in a mixed field in F2, offering a real prospect of being able to impress.

[Burai]

These kids need low-stakes, high-mileage runs. This proposal is not that. It's the opposite of that.

[pdac]

Anything but expanding the grid, eh?

 

Well, I've discounted that as it appears that option is not on the table.

[MaxisOne]

These kids need low-stakes, high-mileage runs. This proposal is not that. It's the opposite of that.

I agree but there is a counterargument to make about throwing someone in a low mileage high stakes situation to see how well they can adapt and keep their wits about them. So yes i agree that good prospects need mileage but are teams going to give everyone on the F2 grid mileage ? I think something like this can winnow the prospects field a bit .. then the teams can approach standout drivers  with more development opportunities and mileage.

 

I also think it has to be at the end of the season.. No team wants to be caught out mid season with a crashed car and since its the end of the season the young drivers that are interesting have a couple months in the off season to develop relationships with teams that are interested.

[F1 Mike]

Another 2 teams in the sport would give more young drivers a chance of a race seat surely?

[loki]

Drivers not yet racing in season testing with race tires would be a better option.  Another budget allowance could be used so it doesn’t go against the cap for the actual test costs.  If the kid bins the car the FIA can look at it and decide what costs to waive for the cap.  Minimal crew and engineering.  Take the data back and go over it after the test.

[MaxisOne]

Another 2 teams in the sport would give more young drivers a chance of a race seat surely?

Not necessarily

[noikeee]

Bizarre idea. Are there even 20 decent young drivers out there? This is blinged out F2.

I mean I'd watch it, it seems a very fun novelty, but I'm not entirely sure it fixes the "giving opportunities to young drivers" bit. Whilst also being extremely expensive.

[garoidb]

Another 2 teams in the sport would give more young drivers a chance of a race seat surely?

 

 

Not necessarily

 

Exactly. I think one of the four new seats would go to Mick Schumacher, for example. There would be a pay driver or two also, and maybe from time to time a veteran extending his career for a few more years. The problem is more deep-seated than just the number of teams.

[mclarensmps]

The middle of the season is precarious because the teams will be afraid to lose car parts due to crashes etc. This may incentivise them to be overly cautious and not allow the young drivers to push the limits properly etc.

 

Also I don't know what the point is to have 1 regular driver and 1 young driver. This generates additional problems and questions that would need to be answered. 

 

- Increase the cost cap by 1 million to allow this (that's being generous as a single weekend damage usually wouldn't exceed half a million for a badly damaged car)

- Running rookies against a regular driver is a perfect way to gauge how good the young drivers are, and to put mid season pressure on underperforming regulars. 

[pdac]

Another 2 teams in the sport would give more young drivers a chance of a race seat surely?

 

That's a MAY.

 

Also, Alonso and Hamilton retiring would open up a couple of seats too (add Bottas, Hulkenberg, Ricciardo to open up even more seats)

[ensign14]

Why doesn't the FIA just put me in charge and cut out the middlemen?

[William Hunt]

Why doesn't the FIA just put me in charge and cut out the middlemen?

 

I'll vote for you.

Hope this F1 junior race happens and I also hope it will be live on tv for all of us to see.

 

 

RED BULL: 

-  Ayumu  IWASA  (JAP)

-  Isack  HADJAR  (FRA)

 

alternative: 

Jake  DENNIS  (GB)

 

 

FERRARI

-  Robert  SCHWARTZMAN  (ISR)

-  Dino  BEGANOVIC  (BOS / SWE)

 

alternatives: 

Antonio  FUOCO  (ITA)

Arthur  LECLERC  (MC)

 

 

MERCEDES

-  Andrea Kimi  ANTONELLI  (ITA)

-  Frederik  VESTI  (DK)

 

 

McLAREN

-  Gabriel  BORTOLETO  (BRA)

-  Pato  O'WARD  (MEX)

 

alternative:

-   Ryo  HIRAKAWA  (JAP)

 

 

 

ASTON MARTIN

-  Felipe  DRUGOVICH  (BRA)

-  Jak  CRAWFORD  (USA)

 

 

ALPINE

-  Jack  DOOHAN  (AUS)

-  Victor  MARTINS  (FRA)

 

 

RB

-  Arvid  LINDBLAD  (SWE / GB)

-  Pepe  MARTI  (ESP)

 

 

WILLIAMS

-  Franco  COLAPINTO  (ARG)

-  Zac  O'SULLIVAN  (GB)

 

alternative:

-  Luke  BROWNING  (GB)

 

 

SAUBER

-  Théo  POURCHAIRE  (FRA)

-  Zane  MALONEY  (BAR)

 

 

HAAS

-  Oliver  BEARMAN  (GB)

-  Enzo  FITTIPALDI  (BRA)

 

alternatives:

-  Pietro  FITTIPALDI  (BRA)

-  Paul  ARON  (EST)

-  Dennis  HAUGER  (NOR)

-  Richard  VERSCHOOR  (NL)

-  Ritomo  MIYATA  (JAP)

-  Taylor  BARNARD  (GB)

-  Leonardo  FORNAROLI  (ITA)

 

 

That looks like a pretty strong field to me

Edited by William Hunt, 29 July 2024 - 22:38.

[noikeee]

It looks like a F2 race. A better F2 race than usual, but a F2 race.

[Beri]

So... A non-championship race, essentially?

 

Which would be great! But I think the T car needs to return to facilitate this.

[F1 Mike]

A rotating 3rd car through each team during the season for those who wish to do so would be an idea I'd be more onboard with. Don't make it compulsory but let those who wish to do so give it a go. One per weekend and your weekend is picked through a draw to make it reasonably fair. Only the two highest finishing cars can score for the constructor's championship?...

[Anderis]

It would provide a gauge for the newcomers by racing in a field against experienced drivers. Long ago, that was the appeal of F2. You'd race against other youngsters in F3, then in a mixed field in F2, offering a real prospect of being able to impress.

 

- Increase the cost cap by 1 million to allow this (that's being generous as a single weekend damage usually wouldn't exceed half a million for a badly damaged car)

- Running rookies against a regular driver is a perfect way to gauge how good the young drivers are, and to put mid season pressure on underperforming regulars. 

I don't think you understand the complexity of my concerns.

 

1. How does increasing the cost cap do anything? If the car is damaged, you have to produce replacement parts, if the car is not damaged, you can spend this money on something else and gain the advantage, regardless of by how much you raise the cap, thus there's an incentive to do everything to prevent damage, including things like prematurely withdraw a perfectly fine car from the race, pretending a mechanical issue and other less obvious things that prevent drivers from pushing 100%. Also there are parts that have to be in the car for multiple races, you're better off with as little wear as possible. It's in the team's interest to self-sabotage in these races if they're not taking part after the season.
 

2. I know it would be cool to have newcomers racing against the experienced drivers but that forces each team to choose one driver to take part and one to sit out. It could lead to potential unfairness, for example in case two drivers from the same team are in a close WDC race- maybe it could be advantegous to get more mileage in the car and more confidence and more setup testing or maybe it would be more advantegous to sit out and rest. You could try to combat that by making an even number of such races and mandating each driver to drive half of them but it leads to further complications.

 

I don't think the idea is very feasible in this form, F1 would need to take massive steps to make it workable.

[Hellenic tifosi]

Well, you could simply say that any damages repaired during this special race are not counted towards the budget cap.

[Wes350]

The driver log jam could be solved by creating more series of similar status to F1. But, even if that were to happen, people would still complain that their favourites could not get into F1. So maybe the solution is to have less professional racing drivers.

 

The F4-F2 ladder is supposed to handle this.

 

i.e. All the young talent is racing each other in "equal equipment" in successive years: Sifting the wheat from the chaff so that when you are running in F2 only the best contenders remaining are going at it in "equal equipment" with F1 only picking the very best 1-2 drivers for promotion each year...

 

The problem with such a supposed meritocratic system is that it has very strong, and entrenched plutocratic elements that muddy the waters all the time.

 

It's autosport: That golden happy place where nice guys will finish last, where money can trump talent, and often does.

Edited by Wes350, 01 August 2024 - 22:57.

[Hellenic tifosi]

Also, the fact that we don't have in season testing means that young drivers don't have many chances to drive F1 machinery, unless a team wants to spend ridiculous money for a previous car test.

[MKSixer]

Will Young Driver, Alonso, be allowed to race in this event?  A precedent HAS been set, after all...

[Nathan]

They could call it an F2 Sprint race.  Just an idea.

[efuloni]

I actually like it.
Better than nothing.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Tentatively – at least in principle.
Or in other words: "Sure, whatever, now let's move on to the next topic".

My thoughts exactly.

[Spillage]

We are have races for young drivers. It's F3 and F2.

F1 sprint races altogether. The reason they can't find the right format for them is because the concept sucks.

[PayasYouRace]

A rotating 3rd car through each team during the season for those who wish to do so would be an idea I'd be more onboard with. Don't make it compulsory but let those who wish to do so give it a go. One per weekend and your weekend is picked through a draw to make it reasonably fair. Only the two highest finishing cars can score for the constructor's championship?...

I really like this sort of idea. We have spare slots on the grid. Allow each team a third car at up to four (or more even) selected races and they can put a wildcard driver in. Either a young rookie or a local hero (SL required of course).

Instead of picking by draw, have teams select in WCC order. So this year Red Bull would have chosen their first choice first, then Mercedes, then Ferrari, etc until Haas. Then Red Bull their second, and so on. There are currently 144 empty grid spots over the course of the season (six each). So up to six teams could potentially pick the same race.

Have the third drivers eligible for WDC points but the third cars ineligible for WCC points.

[7MGTEsup]

I really like this sort of idea. We have spare slots on the grid. Allow each team a third car at up to four (or more even) selected races and they can put a wildcard driver in. Either a young rookie or a local hero (SL required of course).

Instead of picking by draw, have teams select in WCC order. So this year Red Bull would have chosen their first choice first, then Mercedes, then Ferrari, etc until Haas. Then Red Bull their second, and so on. There are currently 144 empty grid spots over the course of the season (six each). So up to six teams could potentially pick the same race.

Have the third drivers eligible for WDC points but the third cars ineligible for WCC points.

 

This sounds like a great idea, so, it will never happen.

[Clatter]

Standalone sprint race... in the world center of racing Abu Dhabi in December... probably with limited TV coverage... with zero benchmarks to anything... yeah this sounds very exciting

It could be a great demolition derby.

[Clatter]

They are trying to pretend this business that is F1 is really a sport. The teams will not be fooled.

Is it the teams they are trying to fool?