85 replies to this topic

[Anderis]

In 2007, Super Aguri were regularly in Q2 and Sato made the Q3 in Australia, finished 8th in Spain and 6th in Canada, overtaking Alonso and Davidson qualified 11th two times and was running P3 in Canada when he hit a groundhog, just saying.

Edited by Anderis, 05 August 2024 - 20:36.

[Tiakumosan]

Now ye'er talkin'! And pre-"pre qualifying".

Pre sprint for the sprint.

[pdac]

I think it's more realistic than back in the late 80s. Teams get so much TV time during practice and qualifying with today's coverage, their sponsors aren't losing out that much if they don't qualify for the race. Anyway, the idea is that any new teams would be able to come in and have a go, and bump their way into the field on merit.

 

It's generally not that stable in the long term to have more teams than there are grid spaces, but it works in the short term when someone new comes along. Either they don't make it, or they push someone else out. I think Jordan was the epitome of that. They began in F1 when pre-qualifying was a thing, and they were good enough that after half a season they were out of the pre-qualifying group and eventually finished 5th. It might not be that easy nowadays, but things haven't changed that much since Haas made their debut, and they did a reasonable job right off the bat too.

 

I think you're wrong there. The costs of competing were much closer to the amounts that you could raise with sponsorship than today. F1 is a hugely costly operation now and the sponsorship money just isn't what it used to be.

[Myrvold]

I think you're wrong there. The costs of competing were much closer to the amounts that you could raise with sponsorship than today. F1 is a hugely costly operation now and the sponsorship money just isn't what it used to be.

 

Seeing how many teams went away from 1989 and until 1994, where Jordan joined while there were pre-qual, and Sauber joined when it was DNQ's, I am not sure it was that close in terms of costs tbh.

[Nathan]

Let me rephrase Pdac...

 

A greater portion of the money needed to go racing (89-94) needed to come from sponsorship than today.  Today 2/3'ds your budget can come from FOM.  Back then you got your money from a mix of your own pocket, a pay driver or two, or three, and whatever sponsorship you mustered up.  Forti, Minardi, Tyrrell weren't largely running off Bernie's giving's like Haas, Williams and RB Italia are today.

 

And that is backed up by all the teams that went bust in this period.  Drivers lost their backers, teams lost 'title' sponsors, owners got sick of taking real losses/were going broke//went broke/their frauds caught up with them. Mix two and a back marker team is dead PDQ.  There was no security of nine figure FOM cheques.  Hence the interest in protecting that status today.

Edited by Nathan, 05 August 2024 - 23:34.

[ATM]

So one proposition în this case, why not decrease the cost cap with say 5 million, and decrease the cheque with only 3 milion per team? That would free up some engineers which can go to Andretti.

[loki]

I, for one, enjoy horribly uncompetitive machinery and we're probably due a team like that. What was the last one? HRT?

 

Alpine…

[Alfisti]

Szaufnaur is such a beta male in an alpha male sport.

[kumo7]

Can  they come in? 

Will FIA says yes to anyone in the situation their last decision was made meaningless?

Should FOM allow this team from USA while keeping Andretti off the grid?

[PayasYouRace]

Szaufnaur is such a beta male in an alpha male sport.

F1 is definitely a “beta male” sport.

[Paahto]

In 2007, Super Aguri were regularly in Q2 and Sato made the Q3 in Australia, finished 8th in Spain and 6th in Canada, overtaking Alonso and Davidson qualified 11th two times and was running P3 in Canada when he hit a groundhog, just saying.

 

Minardi had great flashes with Pierluigi Martini, amongst others. Markus Winklehok led at Nurburgring for Spyker. Those are moments of heart-leaping joy for a fan of the underdog like me - even within the context of an unexpected wet race or, in the case of Sato's Canadian GP, a race with four safety cars. Hats off to him and Davidson that season. Perhaps Yuji Ide has just thwarted my memory regarding Super Aguri's efforts in the sport.

[BRG]

Where's Ron Dennis these days?

That's SIR Ron Dennis if you don't mind.

[PayasYouRace]

I think you're wrong there. The costs of competing were much closer to the amounts that you could raise with sponsorship than today. F1 is a hugely costly operation now and the sponsorship money just isn't what it used to be.

And yet everyone on the grid gets far more bang for their buck in terms of being seen. We have live coverage of free practice. The lowest teams get the big focus during Q1.

It’s easier than ever to just make up the numbers in F1 because so much revenue is pumped back into all the teams, to the extent that the current teams aren’t willing to share the pot, as you well know because you defend them doing so at every opportunity.

There is more than enough money in the sport to support an average of 13 teams, with the possibility to expand and contract fluidly like it always did.

[pdac]

And yet everyone on the grid gets far more bang for their buck in terms of being seen. We have live coverage of free practice. The lowest teams get the big focus during Q1.

It’s easier than ever to just make up the numbers in F1 because so much revenue is pumped back into all the teams, to the extent that the current teams aren’t willing to share the pot, as you well know because you defend them doing so at every opportunity.

There is more than enough money in the sport to support an average of 13 teams, with the possibility to expand and contract fluidly like it always did.

 

I'll do it again, then. F1 team are not (and never have been) charities. They are now very large business operations. Why on earth would they want to take less money than they can to provide the opportunity for someone to come in an decrease their income even further.

[PayasYouRace]

I'll do it again, then. F1 team are not (and never have been) charities. They are now very large business operations. Why on earth would they want to take less money than they can to provide the opportunity for someone to come in a decrease their income even further.

It’s not about what they want. It’s about what they should be forced to put up with. They’re the competitors and they should not be running the show. The sport should be put above the teams’ business interests for once.

[1player]

Mmmmm, toast.

What's with the toast/toaster jokes? I'm out of the loop.

[kumo7]

It’s not about what they want. It’s about what they should be forced to put up with. They’re the competitors and they should not be running the show. The sport should be put above the teams’ business interests for once.

 

This is the exact reason why it wil not happen: "should be forced to". 

I agree but the real event is vis-avis, which I hate.. 

[KWSN - DSM]

In the Ford Engine article on the front age today they casually mention Red Bull have 1800 employees, am I wrong in thinking AGS showed with 6 at their first GP?

[ATM]

What's with the toast/toaster jokes? I'm out of the loop.

Well, back around 2010 we had a new potențial entrant, USF1- which started off reasonably well but went pear-shaped fast and never made it to the grid. Nevertheless, they had put up a body shop so, rather than twiddling their thumbs, the guys over there tried to keep busy and built a bread toaster instead of a F1 car.

[KWSN - DSM]

Well, back around 2010 we had a new potențial entrant, USF1- which started off reasonably well but went pear-shaped fast and never made it to the grid. Nevertheless, they had put up a body shop so, rather than twiddling their thumbs, the guys over there tried to keep busy and built a bread toaster instead of a F1 car.

 

Did they actually build it? Or was it sort of a screensaver which became a meme, which became an urban myth?

[ATM]

The only photo I've seen looks like a (bad) Photoshop to me, but going by this article they at least did some moulding for it.
https://adamcooperf1...ng-the-toaster/

[KWSN - DSM]

Another myth bites the dust, from our friends at Copilot.

 

"The story about USF1 potentially building a toaster seems to be part of the larger narrative of the team’s struggles and eventual failure to join the F1 grid. The term “toaster” was used metaphorically to describe the team’s situation, as in “the team is toast,” indicating that their efforts had failed. There’s no evidence to suggest that USF1 actually built a toaster; it appears to be an urban myth or a humorous anecdote reflecting the team’s unsuccessful attempt to enter Formula 1. The real story is that USF1 faced significant challenges in their bid to join the F1 world championship, and despite initial promising signs, they ultimately did not succeed in fielding a car. The use of the word “toaster” in this context is more of a symbolic representation of their failure rather than a literal appliance they created."

[pdac]

It’s not about what they want. It’s about what they should be forced to put up with. They’re the competitors and they should not be running the show. The sport should be put above the teams’ business interests for once.

 

They don't do self-forcing. It's up to the FIA and FOM to do that. But, just like the teams, FOM is there to maximise profits. They will always weigh up improvements to the sport based on how it is likely to affect their revenue for good or bad. Clearly, with the 11th team thing, they must have found that the bad outweighs the good for them. That's their decision.

 

As for the FIA, thanks to the wonderful deal that they (under Max) did with Bernie, they now have no teeth, because teeth are expensive and they don't have money. The current head of the FIA has found this out now, so that's the last we will hear from them on the matter.

 

So to sum up, whilst you, me and everyone would love to have someone who can force the teams to put up with it, there is nobody who is willing or able to do that. To be clear, though, they are not running the show. It's just that those who are do not want to move on this matter either. Don't put the blame on the teams when it's someone else's fault.

Edited by pdac, 06 August 2024 - 12:57.

[PayasYouRace]

They don't do self-forcing. It's up to the FIA and FOM to do that. But, just like the teams, FOM is there to maximise profits. They will always weigh up improvements to the sport based on how it is likely to affect their revenue for good or bad. Clearly, with the 11th team thing, they must have found that the bad outweighs the good for them. That's their decision.

As for the FIA, thanks to the wonderful deal that they (under Max) did with Bernie, they now have no teeth, because teeth are expensive and they don't have money. The current head of the FIA has found this out now, so that's the last we will hear from them on the matter.

So to sum up, whilst you, me and everyone would love to have someone who can force the teams to put up with it, there is nobody who is willing or able to do that. To be clear, though, they are not running the show. It's just that those who are do not want to move on this matter either. Don't put the blame on the teams when it's someone else's fault.

That’s why I’m not blaming the teams. I’m blaming the FIA for not having any guts to do the sport right.

[amerikalei]

The only photo I've seen looks like a (bad) Photoshop to me, but going by this article they at least did some moulding for it.
https://adamcooperf1...ng-the-toaster/

Might they have been talking about building their oven(s) for carbon fibre fabrication?  A friend has a company that does some of this work for various industries here in the US, and one of their early steps for ramping up work was creating the space where they can bake the laminate assemblies once they're laid up.

Edited by amerikalei, 06 August 2024 - 13:15.

[pdac]

That’s why I’m not blaming the teams. I’m blaming the FIA for not having any guts to do the sport right.

 

You seem to have a beef with me for mentioning it, though.

 

The whole sorry mess can be attributed to Max Mosley for being in a position of power and authority and, from that position, making a deal (a very long-term committment) that seemed more to do with his personal interest.

Edited by pdac, 06 August 2024 - 13:21.

[BRG]

Another myth bites the dust, from our friends at Copilot.

 

"The story about USF1 potentially building a toaster seems to be part of the larger narrative of the team’s struggles and eventual failure to join the F1 grid. The term “toaster” was used metaphorically to describe the team’s situation, as in “the team is toast,” indicating that their efforts had failed. There’s no evidence to suggest that USF1 actually built a toaster; it appears to be an urban myth or a humorous anecdote reflecting the team’s unsuccessful attempt to enter Formula 1. The real story is that USF1 faced significant challenges in their bid to join the F1 world championship, and despite initial promising signs, they ultimately did not succeed in fielding a car. The use of the word “toaster” in this context is more of a symbolic representation of their failure rather than a literal appliance they created."

So they didn't even manage to make a toaster, let alone a F1 car??.  IIRC there were photos of a nose cone that they had (allegedly) made and that was about it.

[AustinF1]

It’s not about what they want. It’s about what they should be forced to put up with. They’re the competitors and they should not be running the show. The sport should be put above the teams’ business interests for once.

Amen to this!

[BobbyRicky]

It’s not about what they want. It’s about what they should be forced to put up with. They’re the competitors and they should not be running the show. The sport should be put above the teams’ business interests for once.

I just like to add that the NHL does this. The big market teams subsidize the small market teams.

[Nathan]

F1 does that too.

[Frood]

Might they have been talking about building their oven(s) for carbon fibre fabrication? A friend has a company that does some of this work for various industries here in the US, and one of their early steps for ramping up work was creating the space where they can bake the laminate assemblies once they're laid up.

USF1 did have some autoclaves running as my father did some work for them. Some CF parts were definitely fabricated (for a car; maybe for a toaster, too).

He/the company he worked for never got paid as far as I know.

Edited by Frood, 07 August 2024 - 13:09.

[pdac]

USF1 did have some autoclaves running as my father did some work for them. Some CF parts were definitely fabricated (for a car; maybe for a toaster, too).

He/the company he worked for never got paid as far as I know.

 

Before I read the last line my immediate thought was that these kind of operations often just burn through other peoples money whilst talking their project up (as I typed that, I thought of William Storey).

[kumo7]

USF1 did have some autoclaves running as my father did some work for them. Some CF parts were definitely fabricated (for a car; maybe for a toaster, too).

He/the company he worked for never got paid as far as I know.

 

Sounds like a heart breaker for young and angry race car builders.   

 

But at least autocrave could work as a huge toaster for the entire race car builder's community (not)... 

[William Hunt]

""Szafnauer with some suggesting that Andretti has not helped its cause by being so vocal about the way it has been treated.""

Translation:  Andretti should just shut-up about the way they were treated"

 

If Andretti had not been vocal they would have suffered the same fate as Hitech (who are going to a tribubal because they claim they were unfairly rejected by the FIA btw) or the other candidates who filed an entry candidacy.

 

Beiing vocal was the ONLY way for Andretti to even be considered in the first. The FIA only opened the tender (which was a farce as Hitech claims) exactly because Andretti remained so vocal.
There would not even have been any tender if Andretti remained silent and obedient because Liberty and FOM never ever had the intention of letting ANYONE in. Not even GM / Cadillac.

 

Also: if a prospective team is vocal or not should NEVER be a criterium.

 

The most vocal ones have actually been the current teams who reject Andretti. They have been far more vocal about it as Andretti has.

Edited by William Hunt, 22 August 2024 - 18:51.

[pdac]

If Andretti had not been vocal they would have suffered the same fate as Hitech (who are going to a tribubal because they claim they were unfairly rejected by the FIA btw) or the other candidates who filed an entry candidacy.

 

Beiing vocal was the ONLY way for Andretti to even be considered in the first. The FIA only opened the tender (which was a farce as Hitech claims) exactly because Andretti remained so vocal.
There would not even have been any tender if Andretti remained silent and obedient because Liberty and FOM never ever had the intention of letting ANYONE in. Not even GM / Cadillac.

 

Also: if a prospective team is vocal or not should NEVER be a criterium.

 

The most vocal ones have actually been the current teams who reject Andretti. They have been far more vocal about it as Andretti has.

 

The FIA opened the tender as part of a power struggle between MBS and Liberty/FOM. Andretti and the others were used as pawn in the game. It was Andretti's outspokenness that gave MBS the belief that he had a situation that he could use to his advantage to increase his (and the FIA's) own power.

[Clatter]

The FIA opened the tender as part of a power struggle between MBS and Liberty/FOM. Andretti and the others were used as pawn in the game. It was Andretti's outspokenness that gave MBS the belief that he had a situation that he could use to his advantage to increase his (and the FIA's) own power.

And now he has backed down and is a puppet for FOM.

Edited by Clatter, 23 August 2024 - 13:09.