180 replies to this topic

[eibyyz]

I'm not as versant with energy recapture as I'd like, but in Formula E, could someone use one, two or three instead of all four corners of the car to capture energy, therefore more resistance in those corners of the car to steer it better?

[Bliman]

Here is my conspiracy theory: the FIA have some people reviewing the rules, looking for loopholes. They found one and have fixed it. Fiendishly cunning.

Highly doubtful imo. I don't think they are that clever.

[jonklug]

https://www.motorspo...-total-fantasy/

Great article by Mark Hughes about why nobody was using an asymmetric braking system - but interestingly he mentions that there are rumors that at least 3 teams had that system ready to go. 

 

 

We are slightly better informed one week on, though still finding out more. But, talking to the relevant people in the paddock, it looks very much like no-one was using it, although at least one team (and probably three) had versions of it ready to go.

 

Also goes on to analyze RedBull's pace compared to 2023 vs its rivals:

 

 

Claims that ‘Red Bull suddenly lost 0.5sec per lap or more’ post-China are total fantasy. Red Bull’s competitive advantage over McLaren and Mercedes has obviously reduced since the beginning of the season to now. But how do we determine how much (if any) of that is Red Bull losing outright performance and how much to McLaren and Mercedes finding performance? It’s actually not so difficult.

 

Taking Miami out of the equation (the track was so hot and gripless that everyone was slower than in ’23) we can compare this year’s Red Bull qualifying times pre and post-China to the same tracks in 2023. When we do that we get the following:

 

Red Bull qualifying lap time improvement ’23 to ’24 up to China: 0.825%

 

Red Bull qualifying lap time improvement ’23 to ’24 post China: 0.933%

 

I.e., nothing significant, even slightly better post-China (but well within the ‘noise’ of variation from track to track).

 

 

Also shows how McLaren and Mercedes visibly improved compared to other teams:

 

 

McLaren

McLaren advantage over non-Red Bull field before Miami: 0.899%

 

McLaren advantage over non-Red Bull field after Miami: 1.247%

 

I.e. McLaren pulled away from the non-Red Bull teams by 0.348% pre and post Miami.

 

Mercedes

Mercedes advantage over non-Red Bull teams before Miami: 0.614%

 

Mercedes advantage over non-Red Bull teams after Miami: 0.952%

 

I.e. Mercedes pulled away 0.337% from non-Red Bull teams pre and post Miami.

[jonklug]

Also, this alone disproves the idea that RedBull took something off the car in Miami:

 

If we do the same calculation for Red Bull (taking out Mercedes and McLaren), we get the following:

 

2024 Red Bull advantage before Miami: 1.22%

 

2024 Red Bull advantage after Miami: 1.29%

 

I.e. almost unchanged gap between Red Bull and the non-Mercedes/McLaren teams pre and post China.

 

So in summary, since the supposed change was imposed upon Red Bull, there has been no significant change in its pace. But McLaren and Mercedes have improved by over 0.3% relative to the non-Red Bulls. Which utterly demolishes the idea that the numbers support the contention that Red Bull had some advantage which was subsequently taken off it. They absolutely do not.

Edited by jonklug, 23 August 2024 - 09:44.

[FirstnameLastname]

Nice story to pad out the 4 week break thou. And everyone loves a Redbull pile on.

[geralt]

Doesn't really look like the pecking order has changed

[Boxerevo]

Where is the zandvoort build up thread or am i missing something?

Edited by Boxerevo, 23 August 2024 - 19:01.

[P123]

Where is the zandvoort build up thread or am i missing something?

 

https://forums.autos...uild-up-thread/

Edited by P123, 23 August 2024 - 19:07.

[MissingApex]

Doesn't really look like the pecking order has changed

What about Ferrari and Mercedes? Both were underperforming today compared to most recent weekends.

[geralt]

What about Ferrari and Mercedes? Both were underperforming today compared to most recent weekends.

Ferrari has been poor for a while and Merc didn't look slow until q3 tbh

[jonklug]

Ferrari have underperformed since Monaco. Mercedes idk what to say, let's see a few more races, if they can't fight for P1 again, I will be suspicious but it's just one bad quali.

Edited by jonklug, 24 August 2024 - 14:20.

[lewislorenzo]

Maybe it was Mercedes😂

[geralt]

Maybe it was Mercedes

Let's see the next couple of races, but it does seem like a significant drop in pace out of nowhere. I'd have thought zandvoort would have suit them as well

[jonklug]

Yep like I said earlier, we need a few more races, can easily be an outlier. Merc probably just have a narrow window that they managed to nail in Silverstone and Spa but not here.

[AlexPrime]

Yep like I said earlier, we need a few more races, can easily be an outlier. Merc probably just have a narrow window that they managed to nail in Silverstone and Spa but not here.

They look fishy to me

[pup]

Also, this alone disproves the idea that RedBull took something off the car in Miami:

Except the advantage from the device is said to be tire wear, not outright pace. Comparing qually times to determine which team had it is kind of like comparing zero to sixty times to determine who has the best cornering speed.

Edited by pup, 25 August 2024 - 17:00.

[FirstnameLastname]

Sauber… slower than a GP2

[sterlingfan2000]

Yes 100% red Bull were exploiting this no matter how many times they deny this

[jonklug]

Yes 100% red Bull were exploiting this no matter how many times they deny this

 

you were in the Monza build up thread saying RedBull are fastest here. quite the flip flop 

[sterlingfan2000]

you were in the Monza build up thread saying RedBull are fastest here. quite the flip flop

I didn't know McLaren was that much sandbagging.

But back to topic, it's very clear FIA closed this loophole ( according to Spanish commentator it was cheating ) was Redbull.

Another Tinfoil Conspiracy is that Newey told FIA about this

Edited by sterlingfan2000, 31 August 2024 - 15:17.

[lewislorenzo]

Pretty obvious who was affected

[jonklug]

Ted Kravitz: Were Red Bull affected by the asymmetrical braking? I asked everybody from technical people to people in the know and nobody says Red Bull were using it. And, what it seems is Red Bull's upgrades were downgrades. Andrew Shovlin went on the record saying that Red Bull's upgrades were downgrades.

[sterlingfan2000]

Ted Kravitz: Were Red Bull affected by the asymmetrical braking? I asked everybody from technical people to people in the know and nobody says Red Bull were using it. And, what it seems is Red Bull's upgrades were downgrades. Andrew Shovlin went on the record saying that Red Bull's upgrades were downgrades.

Well Helmut Marko said even when they took upgrades off , the car wasn't the same as first part of the season.

We could only conspiracy theories here, but all points to Redbull using this loophole

[jonklug]

Yet everyone who matters is saying they didn't.

[pdac]

Yet everyone who matters is saying they didn't.

 

To paraphrase Mandy Rice-Davies: well they would, wouldn't they.

[jonklug]

To paraphrase Mandy Rice-Davies: well they would, wouldn't they.

Even rivals? At some point maybe just maybe it's time to accept its not the case and they've just been out developed.

[pdac]

Even rivals? At some point maybe just maybe it's time to accept its not the case and they've just been out developed.

 

Yep. As long as the FIA have acted then their rivals are just going to keep quiet if that's what 'F1' wants. They will all have things that they'd rather keep quiet about themselves.

 

Personally, I place more weight on observations that anything top people in F1 might say (or not say).

Edited by pdac, 31 August 2024 - 23:11.

[Massa_f1]

Yep. As long as the FIA have acted then their rivals are just going to keep quiet if that's what 'F1' wants. They will all have things that they'd rather keep quiet about themselves.

 

Personally, I place more weight on observations that anything top people in F1 might say (or not say).

 

I doubt Toto or Zak would would be able to keep quiet if they knew Red Bull had been caught out.

[RekF1]

I doubt Toto or Zak would would be able to keep quiet if they knew Red Bull had been caught out.

It's worth remembering that what Ferrari were accused of doing was intentional, whereas even a clever suspension aide (frics) was considered a potential TC mechanism and banned after that year. If RB have been cheating, the FIA must know something that the teams don't.


Were there any significant flexible wing tests earlier in the season, or am I imagining things?

[chrcol]

It’s not…

FIA seem to want it, someone innovated *boom* banned.

[jonklug]

Yep like I said earlier, we need a few more races, can easily be an outlier. Merc probably just have a narrow window that they managed to nail in Silverstone and Spa but not here.

Feel like now I can conclude that before the break, Mercedes were winning race after race, seemed at least on par with McLaren. Now they seem to have clearly lost a step.

Of course with how this season has gone we cannot know for sure, but I think it's fair to say Mercedes have dropped off after the summer break.