45 replies to this topic

[Tom Glowacki]

The Indianapolis Museum is divesting itself of cars not relevant to the history of the track:

 

https://www.cnn.com/...intl/index.html

 

[B Squared]

I do not believe Mr. Penske has anything to do with this. To my knowledge the museum is under the stewardship of the Hulman George group. I see my former employer RM Sotheby's is divesting the cars, I worked with the quoted spokesman, Gord Duff, during my time there.

[Tom Glowacki]

I do not believe Mr. Penske has anything to do with this. To my knowledge the museum is under the stewardship of the Hulman George group. I see my former employer RM Sotheby's is divesting the cars, I worked with the quoted spokesman, Gord Duff, during my time there.

My mistake, you are correct.

[B Squared]

Thanks for posting this, I should have started with that acknowledgment.

[Ray Bell]

It doesn't mention the Caracciola trophy collection...

 

Nothing to do with the Speedway but it would be a shame for them to be disbursed.

 

 

[DCapps]

Not a surprise. This was one of the topics that came up, front and center, during a visit well before COVID.

The consensus seemed to be that the focus of the museum really needed on The Speedway and only whatever was directly related to it.

My impression was that was a long-running topic, prompted in part to space issues, the museum having a Significant number of books (and cars...), for example, that did not directly relate to the mission of the museum: The Speedway.

Hulman and those founding the museum tended to be interested in a broad number of interests and acquired no end of materials, artifacts, cars, et cetera over time.

Interesting to see how this goes...

[FLB]

It doesn't mention the Caracciola trophy collection...

 

Nothing to do with the Speedway but it would be a shame for them to be disbursed.

 

 

When I visited for the first time in 1989, that's what impressed me the most.

[Ray Bell]

It was the sheer number of winning and second-placed cars on display that impressed me in October, 2012...

 

I think it might have had something to do with the 100th anniversary of the running of the first race. And maybe I just got very lucky.

[Henri Greuter]

It doesn't mention the Caracciola trophy collection...

 

Nothing to do with the Speedway but it would be a shame for them to be disbursed.

 

 

 

 

 

If I am correct, these trophies were given to Tony and Mary Hulman and thus belong to the Hulman properties.

 

They were gone from permanent display for several years already, even before the Hulman Dynasty sold off IMS.

Perhaps the collection went back to the Hulman properies and still being within the Family belongings. I kind of hope they are.

 

If not, and by now (Still) property of the Museum, I think I know two places in the orld where they would be better off then where they are now.

 

 

1) Mercedes Museum

2) The Louwman Collection in The Hague (Netherlands)  which has a facinating collection of Trophies already and the Caracciola Collection would be not out of place over there.

[B Squared]

It was the sheer number of winning and second-placed cars on display that impressed me in October, 2012...

I think it might have had something to do with the 100th anniversary of the running of the first race. And maybe I just got very lucky.

They have always had many winning cars on display. The only small number of displayed cars would date back to the first museum outside turn one, and it was impressive to me when I first experienced it in the early 1960s.

Henri, I agree, if the Carraciola trophies are to go, I do hope someone like the Mercedes-Benz museum would keep it all together.

[Henri Greuter]

They have always had many winning cars on display. The only small number of displayed cars would date back to the first museum outside turn one, and it was impressive to me when I first experienced it in the early 1960s.

Henri, I agree, if the Carraciola trophies are to go, I do hope someone like the Mercedes-Benz museum would keep it all together.

 

B Squared,  I assume that they are still there but ot least once, the Louwman Collection had two Baby Borg for winners within their collection  (1949 Holland and 1958 Bryan) and once they also had trophies awarded to finishers in the 1911 Indy 500 within their posession.

 

But it's a long time ago I saw those and perhaps they are gone nowadays.

[B Squared]

The "Baby Borg" was first presented in 1988, perhaps the Holland and Bryan trophies were something other than the Borg Warner in miniature?

[Collombin]

The "Baby Borg" was first presented in 1988, perhaps the Holland and Bryan trophies were something other than the Borg Warner in miniature?

The original ones were on a wooden plaque and I must admit I always called them Baby Borgs even if that might not have been their official title. I recall Mrs Bobby Unser complaining to me once about the size of them. I have no idea who she thought I was.

[Henri Greuter]

The "Baby Borg" was first presented in 1988, perhaps the Holland and Bryan trophies were something other than the Borg Warner in miniature?

 

 

Oops,

I'm sorry but I always referred to them as Baby Borgs since I heard of those before I ever saw a predecessor of them, the half one on the wooden "shield".

 

I have seen one of those Baby Borg Predecessors in the USA and I can hereby testify that the two I once saw in the Louwman Museum were identical to the US one I saw, only with different names of the recepients, the ones in the Louwman once were handed out to Holland and Bryan. 

Maybe they still are in th collection over there.

[B Squared]

L. Strauss and Co. did trophies for the winning drivers for a number of years.

https://www.nuvo.net...0ea1f92c49.html

[Henri Greuter]

Oops,

I'm sorry but I always referred to them as Baby Borgs since I heard of those before I ever saw a predecessor of them, the half one on the wooden "shield".

 

I have seen one of those Baby Borg Predecessors in the USA and I can hereby testify that the two I once saw in the Louwman Museum were identical to the US one I saw, only with different names of the recepients, the ones in the Louwman once were handed out to Holland and Bryan. 

Maybe they still are in th collection over there.

 

 

 

Ever since I found out about this, I've always liked the twist in this fact

 

 

the personal Borg Warner Trophy of Bill Holland ending up in the Netherlands,

 

(I hear some brains crushing to understand what I mean......)

Edited by Henri Greuter, 14 August 2024 - 11:27.

[ReWind]

There is a - short - thread about the Baby Borgs.

[E1pix]

…the personal Borg Warner Trophy of Bill Holland ending up in the Netherlands.
 
(I hear some brains crushing to understand what I mean......)

That’s a good one, Henri. :-)

[rl1856]

A staggering amount of money will change hands just from the sale of the W196 and 250LM.   Large sums of money tends to distort thinking and cause logic or sentiment to go out the window.   If the intent is to refocus the IMS Museum around Indy 500 related displays, would it not make sense to essentially swap non core assets with other museums that hold significant Indy 500 related vehicles ?  Or arrange rotating reciprocal loans between other museums ?  I visited the Brumos Museum and was very impressed by their substantial collection of Miller related displays....all of which would be very much in place at Indy due to direct Miller involvement and as progenitor of the various Offenhauser engines.   Imagine a special exhibition focusing on Miller at IMS ?   

 

But again large sums of money......my worst fear is these cars are purchased by a wealthy collector and rarely if ever seen again.

 

On another note, it is coup for RM given the rivalry with Hagerty's and recent movement of key personnel between the two companies.

[DCapps]

I remember hearing somewhere that,"...Money makes the world go round..." 

 

Keep in mind that one could visit the IMS Museum over the years and notice scarcely any changes in the exhibits, displays or much of anything for that matter.

The place was pretty much on autopilot.

Since Jason Vansickle arrived at the Museum, that changed, with annual turnovers for themes, exhibits, and displays.

For years, funding was an issue for the museum -- pretty much the same problem as more than a few automotive-themed museums around the world.

It will be interesting to see how the combination of Penske ownership and the redirection will turn out for the museum.

 

(I am still waiting to examine the AAA material in the file cabinets sitting in the basement, by the way to sort out the wheat from the chaff. Just sayin'...)

[Tom Glowacki]

More pictures here:

 

https://www.msn.com/...1007dae37&ei=52

[Sterzo]

If, and I mean if, Mercedes-Benz donated rather than sold the W196 to the museum, it feels a little uncomfortable (though entirely legal) for it to be sold for millions.

[DCapps]

If, and I mean if, Mercedes-Benz donated rather than sold the W196 to the museum, it feels a little uncomfortable (though entirely legal) for it to be sold for millions.

 

Re: Money makes the world go round...

[B Squared]

While this will have an immediate effect on accumulating additional cash for the museum foundation, it certainly would make anyone that had a thought of donating a car or cars to the museum have second thoughts

[Steve L]

Didn't Mercedes donate the W196 to the Indy museum in the same way that they donated a similar car to Beaulieu - and they sold theirs?

[Tom Glowacki]

This is not an unusual situation with museums that emphasize one area of interest and then some donor with some items they really want comes along and wants to donate their collection.  The problem is that, for example, the museum of French Impressionists and post impressionists wants the donor's Monets, and the donor will happily donate them, but the donor wants the museum to take their Andy Warhols as well.  The museum cannot have donors change their mission, but maybe the museum could unload the Warhols and buy a couple of Cezannes with the proceeds.  You end up with a museum that is better at it's mission, instead of having a side room full of Warhols.

Edited by Tom Glowacki, 18 August 2024 - 00:16.

[opplock]

Didn't Mercedes donate the W196 to the Indy museum in the same way that they donated a similar car to Beaulieu - and they sold theirs?

 

 Hopefully owners of valuable items (not only cars) will learn to use long term loans or restrictive covenants to prevent this sort of behaviour.   

[Jim Thurman]

While this will have an immediate effect on accumulating additional cash for the museum foundation, it certainly would make anyone that had a thought of donating a car or cars to the museum have second thoughts

Brian, I'm sadly reminded of a couple situations like this. One, a museum had a lot of motorsports holdings, then decided they'd focus on road automobiles, so they either sold or binned the motorsports collection. It seems much of it literally was dumped.

 

The other was perhaps even more egregious. Folks donated material to a regional racing museum. It closed down, and all their donated material disappeared. Worse yet, that included a huge collection of racing newspapers that were "on loan." The donor has never been able to track down what happened to them, but we have an idea.

 

All makes me worry about donating my motorsports collection.

[Sterzo]

 Hopefully owners of valuable items (not only cars) will learn to use long term loans or restrictive covenants to prevent this sort of behaviour.   

Indeed. A friend who inherited a fifteenth century painting loans it to the National Gallery - it's safer there in Trafalgar Square than in her flat. They invite her to a sumptuous dinner each year. A deal that's good for both parties.

[Emery0323]

A couple of the cars IMS is putting on sale that haven't been mentioned specifically so far:

 

- Craig Breedlove's Spirit of America LSR car from 1965 - It must be huge, is it on display?

 

- A former adversary of the Ferrari 250LM, a Ford GT MkII from 1966,  the metallic copper-colored #4 Donohue / Hawkins car, now restored to its correct 1966 appearance.

When I visited the IMS museum in 1988, this car was painted and numbered to look like the black #2 race winner of McLaren and Amon.

Edited by Emery0323, 19 August 2024 - 04:29.

[rl1856]

 Hopefully owners of valuable items (not only cars) will learn to use long term loans or restrictive covenants to prevent this sort of behaviour.   

 

Each country has its own rules governing the value and potential tax deduction for a donation.  Structure of the donation contract, issues of full or partial transfer of ownership, future rights related to the object, all determine the final tax credit for a donor in the US.   For example, a long term loan with a future right to re-acquisition would have a lower upfront donation value than an outright transfer of possession and ownership.  Restrictions on how a donation of anything other than cash, or liquid investment securities would also have a lower upfront donation value than an outright transfer of possession and ownership.   Looked at another way, an item with an a appraised value of $10mm that is donated with the caveat that the item can never be sold by the recipient has a much lower tax credit value because the caveat affects how the item may be used.  In this case the value can not be monetized by the recipient.   It would be nice if all donations were altruistic, but in the real world the donor frequently wants (and sometimes needs) to receive as much tax credit as possible.

[SamoanAttorney]

Is there any reference to the 1979 Le Mans winning Porsche 935 K that the Whittington brothers 'donated' to the museum? Or have I just missed it?

[Henri Greuter]

Is there any reference to the 1979 Le Mans winning Porsche 935 K that the Whittington brothers 'donated' to the museum? Or have I just missed it?

 

 

I vaguely remember something about that car being gone already some time ago.

 

 

 

 

Edit: Come to think of it, for a while the IMS Museum owned two le mans winners that were very special among them all.

 

First:  what was for a long time the last ever Ferrari that won the race

Second: the only winning car ever with the engine behind the rear axle and at the same time the only winning car that was inspired and derived from a genuine production car, available at large to a general public even if it was a bit pricey.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 20 August 2024 - 07:15.

[Pullman99]

If, and I mean if, Mercedes-Benz donated rather than sold the W196 to the museum, it feels a little uncomfortable (though entirely legal) for it to be sold for millions.

 

Perhaps "donated" by Mercedes-Benz USA rather than the Mercedes-Benz Museum>

 

However, maybe someone should tell RM Sotheby's that, on their official site for the auction, they've got the date a couple of years out for the W196:

 

The Indianapolis Motor Speedway Museum has partnered with RM Sotheby’s to bring to market an incredible selection of competition cars dating from 1906 to 1966. Offered to the market for the first time in decades as part of an ongoing strategy to support the Museum’s long-term financial sustainability, this truly historic selection includes Stirling Moss and Juan Manuel Fangio’s legendary 1956 Mercedes-Benz W196 ‘Monza’ Streamliner, the 1965 24 Hours of Le Mans-winning Ferrari 250 LM, and a 1966 Ford GT40 Mark II—in addition to several landmark veteran and pre-war competition greats.

 

To be offered in a series of auctions beginning in the fall of 2024, this milestone event not only represents an unrepeatable opportunity to acquire some of the most significant motorsport icons ever offered at public auction, but also helps to secure the future of one of the most impressive collections of automotive history in the world.

Edited by Pullman99, 29 August 2024 - 08:05.

[Pullman99]

 

A couple of the cars IMS is putting on sale that haven't been mentioned specifically so far:

 

- Craig Breedlove's Spirit of America LSR car from 1965 - It must be huge, is it on display?

 

- A former adversary of the Ferrari 250LM, a Ford GT MkII from 1966,  the metallic copper-colored #4 Donohue / Hawkins car, now restored to its correct 1966 appearance.

When I visited the IMS museum in 1988, this car was painted and numbered to look like the black #2 race winner of McLaren and Amon.

 

 

I think that Spirit of America Sonic 1 has been at the IMS for over 20 years (?) but I believe that Goodyear had owned it, or had some control over it, following its 1965 record but had been exhibited in the Crawford Auto-Aviation Museum in Cleveland, Ohio.    That museum sold some of its cars in 1990 (by Sotheby's) and in 2009 (by RM) to (according to Wilipedia) pay off its debts.   I presume that this included Spirit of America Sonic 1 and that it was then purchased by the IMS Museum.    Hopefully the outcome will be that this car will remain in the USA although it would be great if it could visit the UK at some time.   

 

The excellent book on the car that took Craig Breedlove's record in 1970  - The Blue Flame -  Speedquest by Richard Keller and David Tremayne describes the sale of that car to a Belgian collector by the Institute of Gas Technology and with subsequent sales resulting in the car being displayed in the ownership of the Auto und Technik Museum in Sinsheim.   That was the last car to achieve an outright land speed record at Bonneville; Spirit of America Sonic 1 is, therefore, currently the last such vehicle still on American soil.    It would be nice to think that a major US institution such as the Smithsonian or the Petersen could step in and ensure that Sonic 1's future can be secured.

Edited by Pullman99, 29 August 2024 - 08:05.

[Henri Greuter]

I think that Spirit of America Sonic 1 has been at the IMS for over 20 years (?) but I believe that Goodyear had owned it, or had some control over it, following its 1965 record but had been exhibited in the Crawford Auto-Aviation Museum in Cleveland, Ohio.    That museum sold some of its cars in 1990 (by Sotheby's) and in 2009 (by RM) to (according to Wilipedia) pay off its debts.   I presume that this included Spirit of America Sonic 1 and that it was then purchased by the IMS Museum.    Hopefully the outcome will be that this car will remain in the USA although it would be great if it could visit the UK at some time.   

 

 

SNIP

 

 

Make that way more than 20 year within IMSM collection.

 

 

Within my collection of Novi memorabilia I have an old post card witha a scene taken inside the museum so it must be taken after 1976 when the current museum building was opened. In the picture you can see the tail fin of "The Spirit of America".

The FWD Novi is in the picture too (why should I otherwise have bought that card????)  but it is not in the nowadays familiar cream 1948 #54 trim. Instead it was still in the colors how it was donated to the museum in the very early 60's, silver to aluminum with red trim. A color it never used in its active career.

 

However, the Novi has supposedly been on display in a German car exposition in the early 80's, I have the catalogue of that expo (copyright date 1982) and it shows the Novi still in that alumnum-silver&red trim. I have no approval if the car ever was in Germany. By the way, when I checked the catalogue for the year of publication I then found out much to my surprise that the "Spirit of America" was also appearing in that catalogue as being on display at that German show!

 

So the earliest year of which I am aware of the "Spirit" being within the posession of IMS Museum is 1982. But since I expect that postcard being older than 1982 we can add a few more years to that time of ownership with the earliest possible confirmed year being 1976

 

[D-Type]

The IMS Museum has a reputation for "doctoring" history with many exhibits being repainted or renumbered to correspond to more "historic" versions.  So any claim that any car there, or being sold by them, is a particular chassis must be taken with a pinch of salt.

Edited by D-Type, 22 August 2024 - 20:13.

[B Squared]

The IMS Museum has a reputation for "doctoring" history with many exhibits being repainted or renumbered to correspond to more "historic" versions. So any claim that any car there, or being sold by them, is a particular chassis must be taken with a pinch of salt.

So you are doubting the claims on the history of these 11 cars that are for sale?

How many times have you been to Indianapolis to examine their collection?

I know there have been a few instances for which you speak, but rubbishing the entire museum as a fake factory is just not true.

Edited by B Squared, 23 August 2024 - 10:47.

[D-Type]

For example, for years they had the Dan Gurney Lotus painted up as Jim Clark's.  There are many more.  Hence I would advise any potential purchasers to do their due diligence. 

[DCapps]

Brian,

 

More than a few people with very good to excellent credentials have pointed out the tendency of the IMS Museum staff in the past to repaint various vehicles in the collection to represent similar but more historic cars.

This was in no small part because the staff involved in such activities were not museum/public history professionals, but rather "enthusiasts" whose inclinations were the usual "who would notice or even know the difference?"

This was regrettable and "unprofessional" if you will, but did happen.

However, from what I have gathered, this has issue has largely been addressed as the staff changed.

But, yep, Brian, your initial reaction is not far from mine when I was first told this some time ago, maybe even more pungent, if you will. You beat me to saying something along these lines.

Vansickle and those dealing with the archives and artifacts are now professionals and appear to have addressed the problems and resolved most if not all of them.

As mentioned, I was present during some of the discussions regarding the focus of the museum, which largely dealt with the literature collection and various artifacts and not so much the cars.

And, Brian, you are correct, while certainly not a Fake Factory as a whole and the issues isolated for the most part being few and isolated, no one should get the impression that it was/is that.

Even when it was something of omnium gatherium of stuff rather than a coherent collection or even much of a museum, what you saw was far, far more often than not the Real Deal.

 

Don

[Henri Greuter]

For example, for years they had the Dan Gurney Lotus painted up as Jim Clark's.  There are many more.  Hence I would advise any potential purchasers to do their due diligence. 

Though I understand where you are coming from, do you suggest that potential buyers need to check out properly if the "Spirit of America", the W196 and the 250LM are the real deal?

 

I have the feeling that of all things, the cars in question are among those (still) within the IMS Museum collection that don't have to be be discussed about if they are genuine or not.

[B Squared]

Thank you Henri, that was the question I had asked and has not been answered by those insinuating these cars are being misrepresented.

Don, thank you for your thoughtful answer. Say what you will about the past administrators, but 30 years ago when my dad, brother and I began restoring some cars that were relevant to the Speedway, we were fortunate to have great access due to Ellen Byerly. Bill Spoerle and Barney Wimmer were of great help and gave us access to the basement and helped us when we needed to make measurements on components that required body work to be removed, not really a common thing to most museums I would think. We were also friends with Mr. Hoggatt and he was able to provide us the documentation that we were looking for for the cars. And of course, Donald Davidson was always very helpful in meeting our requests. I can only comment on what I experienced. Bias on my part, but that was great times for me and my family, enjoying the best access we ever had to the Speedway since my dad first went in 1957.

I want to add that during this time all it took was a phone call to Ellen and she would make sure we had all the proper passes for garage and hot pits. I first got on the pit lane in 1980 (not through Ellen), it was a life-changing experience for me. From then on, I decided I had to find a way to get involved in the sport and two years later I began my decade plus run as a CART official.

Edited by B Squared, 24 August 2024 - 11:52.

[Henri Greuter]

Thank you Henri, that was the question I had asked and has not been answered by those insinuating these cars are being misrepresented.

Don, thank you for your thoughtful answer. Say what you will about the past administrators, but 30 years ago when my dad, brother and I began restoring some cars that were relevant to the Speedway, we were fortunate to have great access due to Ellen Byerly. Bill Spoerle and Barney Wimmer were of great help and gave us access to the basement and helped us when we needed to make measurements on components that required body work to be removed, not really a common thing to most museums I would think. We were also friends with Mr. Hoggatt and he was able to provide us the documentation that we were looking for for the cars. And of course, Donald Davidson was always very helpful in meeting our requests. I can only comment on what I experienced. Bias on my part, but that was great times for me and my family, enjoying the best access we ever had to the Speedway since my dad first went in 1957.

I want to add that during this time all it took was a phone call to Ellen and she would make sure we had all the proper passes for garage and hot pits. I first got on the pit lane in 1980 (not through Ellen), it was a life-changing experience for me. From then on, I decided I had to find a way to get involved in the sport and two years later I began my decade plus run as a CART official.

I think  that we have similar thoughs and vaguely similar kind of experiences with the older generation of Museum people.

 

Jim Hoggatt, that he may rest in peace and have a great time already with having met Ettore Bugatti at long, long last.

[lcbulldog]

Our guide at the National Corvette Museum this week told us the 1957 Corvette SS is also included in the auction. He added that the museum is hoping that the 11 cars will bring $100 million.

[Tim Murray]

More details on the 11 cars being put up for sale:

https://www.hemmings...jQuLJ-Lp6UgPA7A

[Pullman99]

It would appear that RM Sotheby's has postponed the sale of these cars from the Fall (Autumn this side of the water) until January 2025.   Their website quotes the following:

 

"Offered to the market for the first time in decades as part of an ongoing strategy to support the Museum’s long-term financial sustainability, this truly historic selection includes Stirling Moss and Juan Manuel Fangio’s legendary 1956 Mercedes-Benz W196 ‘Monza’ Streamliner, the 1965 24 Hours of Le Mans-winning Ferrari 250 LM, and a 1966 Ford GT40 Mark II—in addition to several landmark veteran and pre-war competition greats.  

To be offered in a series of auctions beginning in January of 2025, this milestone event not only represents an unrepeatable opportunity to acquire some of the most significant motorsport icons ever offered at public auction, but also helps to secure the future of one of the most impressive collections of automotive history in the world. "  More below:

 

https://rmsothebys.c...Speedway Museum

 

A comment on the Hemmings site as highlighted by Tim would appear to be an echo of the debate surrounding the W196 sold by the National Motor Museum a few years back.   "Mercedes gifted the (Indianapolis Motor Speedway Museum) the W196…. It should be given back to them. The same goes for the corvette given by GM. Ask for a storage fee …. But the cars should be returned."

 

No apparent comment on Spirit of America Sonic 1.   This was the second to last US holder of the world land speed record holder (the last being The Blue Flame) to set the record on the Bonneville Salt Flats and is of great interest to enthusiasts in the UK as well - one would expect - as in the USA.   The Museum of American Speed in Lincoln Nebraska would seem to be an appropriate place or maybe the Petersen in Los Angeles.  Link to the Lincoln venue here:   https://www.museumofamericanspeed.org/

Edited by Pullman99, 02 October 2024 - 09:30.