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#51 Pullman99

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Posted 03 February 2025 - 10:24

Just to keep this thread up to date, the Mercedes-Benz W196 streamliner was sold at Stuttgart for €51,155,000 EUR last Saturday, 1st February.   This has obviously set new auction records for a Grand Prix car and also makes it the second most expensive car sold at auction.  More details from RM Sotheby's below:

 

https://rmsothebys.c...erm=W196Results

 

This is the first of the batch to find a new owner (wonder to whom it was sold).   Next up is the Masten Gregory /Jochen Rindt Ferrari 250LM, winner of the 1965 Le Mans 24 Hours, on the 4th / 5th February at The Louvre.



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#52 Collombin

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Posted 03 February 2025 - 10:47

This is the first of the batch to find a new owner (wonder to whom it was sold). Next up is the Masten Gregory /Jochen Rindt Ferrari 250LM, winner of the 1965 Le Mans 24 Hours, on the 4th / 5th February at The Louvre.


Don't tell Doug that the blurb cites the Oct 2020 issue of Motor Sport as a point in FAVOUR of the Hugus myth!

#53 Pullman99

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Posted 03 February 2025 - 14:46

Don't tell Doug that the blurb cites the Oct 2020 issue of Motor Sport as a point in FAVOUR of the Hugus myth!

 

OK.  Promise...

 

My main interest in all of this is the ultimate fate of Spirit of America Sonic 1.     These vehicles, including the 250LM, need to be in the public domain.   Interestingly, the 250LM was driven - briefly - by Romain Grosjean whilst in the Indy Museum's care.   See You Tube piece below:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=4L9uNufzUec



#54 Pullman99

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Posted 04 February 2025 - 09:46

This is the RM Sotheby's video on You Tube of the sale of the W196.   Wonder where it's ended up?

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=G3SVBRnySaU



#55 BRG

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Posted 04 February 2025 - 10:07

Wonder where it's ended up?

 

 

If it is a buyer in the EU, they will now be getting stung for import duty, as cautioned in the Sotheby's blurb.  I wonder what rate of tax is levied?  If it was 10%, they will need to find another 5+ million euros!



#56 rl1856

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Posted 04 February 2025 - 14:13

If it is a buyer in the EU, they will now be getting stung for import duty, as cautioned in the Sotheby's blurb.  I wonder what rate of tax is levied?  If it was 10%, they will need to find another 5+ million euros!

 

Not necessarily.  There are designated tax exempt storage zones in the EU where one can hold a valuable item without taking physical possession within the boarders of the EU and triggering Govt Fees.  Items are held, but not technically owned, then eventually shipped to a more advantageous location.   We have them in the US, called "foreign trade zones".  Items can enter the US, then go to the FTZ to await transportation to a final destination where import duty is levied.

Possible EU buyer can own without paying duty, just not take physical possession in the EU.  Murky and legal clarifications then take over. 

 

Of course, said buyer could donate the car to a museum and receive a tax deduction to offset import duty.  In the US, there are many private museums that are owned by the donors for all intents and purposes.  They donate their valuable items to the museum, which they control, then can use and enjoy the items as if they owned directly.   This arrangement also allows operating costs of ownership to become deductable expenses.  If you can afford to spend e50MM+ , you can afford the team of lawyers to navigate all of the above....    

 

I am surprised at the W196 sale did not surpass the Uhlenhaut Coupe or various recent GTO sales, and came in below expectations.  Wonder if Sonic 1, the 250LM and GT40 will meet expectations ?


Edited by rl1856, 04 February 2025 - 14:35.


#57 Henri Greuter

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Posted 04 February 2025 - 14:58

Not necessarily.  There are designated tax exempt storage zones in the EU where one can hold a valuable item without taking physical possession within the boarders of the EU and triggering Govt Fees.  Items are held, but not technically owned, then eventually shipped to a more advantageous location.   We have them in the US, called "foreign trade zones".  Items can enter the US, then go to the FTZ to await transportation to a final destination where import duty is levied.

Possible EU buyer can own without paying duty, just not take physical possession in the EU.  Murky and legal clarifications then take over. 

 

Of course, said buyer could donate the car to a museum and receive a tax deduction to offset import duty.  In the US, there are many private museums that are owned by the donors for all intents and purposes.  They donate their valuable items to the museum, which they control, then can use and enjoy the items as if they owned directly.   This arrangement also allows operating costs of ownership to become deductable expenses.  If you can afford to spend e50MM+ , you can afford the team of lawyers to navigate all of the above....    

 

I am surprised at the W196 sale did not surpass the Uhlenhaut Coupe or various recent GTO sales, and came in below expectations.  Wonder if Sonic 1, the 250LM and GT40 will meet expectations ?

 

 

The Uhlenhaut Coupe was outrageous priced. Up to lhe level of totally insane.

And of the F1 196s there are more examples in existence than a mere 2 like with the coupe. so not reaching the price of the Coupe makes sense.

 

 

A large sale in Kissimee (FL) recently was also below expectations, so who knows it is a trend.

 

But IMS Museum can't complain too much. They got the car for free as a gift and whatever they have invested in the maintanance over the years is more than compensated 

 

 

 

EDIT:  I won't be surprised if the 250LM also fails to meet the expectations: 2 years ago it was still the last ever Ferrari that had won the Le Mans 24 hours.

Since two years not anymore, taking away some of the status of the car and thus the value???


Edited by Henri Greuter, 04 February 2025 - 15:11.


#58 Pieter

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Posted 05 February 2025 - 21:14

Almost € 35 Million for the Ferrari 250 LM in the auction today in Paris.

 

https://rmsothebys.c...-by-scaglietti/



#59 Charlieman

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Posted 06 February 2025 - 07:20

The declared price for the MB W196 was €50 million * 1.023. For the Ferrari 250LM, the price was €34 million * 1.026. Any explanations? Buyer's premium?



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#60 rl1856

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Posted 06 February 2025 - 14:28

I viewed some of the recent Scottsdale auctions, and read informed market commentary.  Most believe that there are negative current issues affecting the collector car market.   Genre and timeframe popularity is largely driven by population aging.  First wave of buyers drove high prices for early 20th century cars.  Prices started to plateau then steadily decline once this pool of buyers started to pass away.  Now it is the rare pre-war car that achieves much above mid 6 figures.   Post war cars, from both sides of the Atlantic were significantly bid up over the past 25yrs, mostly by 'boomers who wanted to amass collections of the real cars that inspired their Hot Wheels or Corgi collections as children.   Again, top cars get top prices, but those are few and becoming farther between.   Cars that were nudging 7 figures a few years ago are now settling in the mid 6 figure area, and may be headed lower as 'boomers begin to move to nursing homes and beyond.  In fact several notable older collectors are bringing cars to market, to cash out while they can.  Most cite estate reasons, pass along to another collector...but the real reason may be that these very smart people have become wary of the current and future geo-political-economic environments, at the same time that the pool of interested buyers may be shrinking.  The sensible response becomes moving to the sidelines by raising then hoarding cash.



#61 Pullman99

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Posted 09 February 2025 - 10:33

This is the video of the 250LM sale in action

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=gNWiCrqkmks

 

Next up for the Indianapolis Museum sale cars at RM Sotheby's s Moda Miami on the 27th to 28th February.   This includes the sale of Spirit of America Sonic 1.



#62 john aston

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Posted 10 February 2025 - 07:12

I'd rather remember the 250LM as the car I used to push to the start line at hillclimbs, having been driven there on the road by owner Jack Maurice . The insane prices a biliionaire wlil pay to impress his  oligarch friends  by owning what was once just an old racer are absurd, if not downright distasteful .    



#63 D28

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Posted 10 February 2025 - 14:30

Almost € 35 Million for the Ferrari 250 LM in the auction today in Paris.

 

https://rmsothebys.c...-by-scaglietti/

 

  • The only privateer-entered Ferrari to ever win the 24 Hours of Le Mans overall

 

The sales blurb from Sotheby's contains this unnecessary hyperbole; the car is unique enough without exaggerating.

 

Peter Mitchell-Thompson purchased the winning Ferrari  from Chinetti and entered it in the 1949 race.

 

Sotheby's knows better, but several news stories reporting the sale repeat the blurb; how inaccuracies originate on the net. 


Edited by D28, 10 February 2025 - 14:30.


#64 Henri Greuter

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Posted 12 February 2025 - 12:35

 

  • The only privateer-entered Ferrari to ever win the 24 Hours of Le Mans overall

 

The sales blurb from Sotheby's contains this unnecessary hyperbole; the car is unique enough without exaggerating.

 

Peter Mitchell-Thompson purchased the winning Ferrari  from Chinetti and entered it in the 1949 race.

 

Sotheby's knows better, but several news stories reporting the sale repeat the blurb; how inaccuracies originate on the net. 

 

 

 

 

I suppose they had to make up with something.

I still wonder what this Ferrari would have yielded if it had been sold two years ago when it was still the last ever Ferrari that had won Le Mans.

Or what it would have yielded if those two `damned` 499SP's had not taken over that distinction from the 250LM and another.



#65 Pullman99

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Posted 17 February 2025 - 11:18

Final details of the forthcoming event on 27th and 28th February at Moda Miami of the remaining vehicles in the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Museum sale.   The sale includes other items as well as the Indy vehicles.

 

https://rmsothebys.c...ions/mi25/lots/

 

Hopefully there will be an appropriate outcome for Spirit of America Sonic 1 which is Lot No. 109 to be offered on Thursday 27th February   This car, of all of the lots offered deserves a museum to be its new custodian.   Craig Breedlove's earlier 3-wheeled Spirit of America is in the collections of the Museum of American Speed in  Lincoln Nebraska.



#66 Emery0323

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Posted 28 February 2025 - 09:20

It looks like the results from Feb. 27 are now posted:

 

https://rmsothebys.c...e=1&pageSize=40

 

The highest sale price was the 1966 Ford GT MkII, Chassis P/1032, at $13,205,000 USD.

Not a race winner in period, it was driven by Mark Donohue and Paul Hawkins at LeMans 1966 (Bronze Car #4), where it DNF'd.

It did finish 2nd at Sebring that year, driven by Donohue and Walt Hansgen (White/Black Car #3).

This car was painted black and numbered #2 to look like the race winner of McLaren/Amon and displayed at the IMS museum that way for many years.

 

The Spirit of America Sonic1 sold for $1.325M, I wonder where it is going?


Edited by Emery0323, 28 February 2025 - 09:23.


#67 Pullman99

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Posted 28 February 2025 - 10:54

Just watched last night's RM Sotheby's Miami auction. Spirit of America Sonic 1 went for 1.2 Million dollars plus premium hope it's going to a good home and that the buyer does not try and run it as Sotheby's was suggesting! Anyone know anything more?

#68 Tom Glowacki

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Posted 02 March 2025 - 02:14

The final tally, dollar conversion from Euros by XE, with modest rounding:

 

Ferrari 250LM            $36,196,000
Mercedes W196        $53,085,000
Ford GT40 Mk. II       $13,205,000
Corvette SS                $7,705,000
1908 Mercedes           $8,255,000
Bugatti T35               $1,380,000
Benetton B191               $755,000
Sonic I                     $1,325,000
1907 Itala                 $1,325,000
1911 Mercedes              $268,800
1911 Laurin                 $179,200
Total:                    $125,286,355



#69 jonpollak

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Posted 31 March 2025 - 21:16

The IMS museum grand re-opening is this Wednesday.

Here is a preview video I found just a few minutes ago...

 

 

Jp



#70 Henri Greuter

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Posted 01 April 2025 - 19:49

I am certain that if Indycars had used the F1 kind atmo V10s of 1990-2005 the starting grid experience would be overcrowded with noise junks all day long and the amount of people with hearing difficulties increasing rapidly.



#71 Steve L

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Posted 02 April 2025 - 05:57

The final tally, dollar conversion from Euros by XE, with modest rounding:

 

Ferrari 250LM            $36,196,000
Mercedes W196        $53,085,000
Ford GT40 Mk. II       $13,205,000
Corvette SS                $7,705,000
1908 Mercedes           $8,255,000
Bugatti T35               $1,380,000
Benetton B191               $755,000
Sonic I                     $1,325,000
1907 Itala                 $1,325,000
1911 Mercedes              $268,800
1911 Laurin                 $179,200
Total:                    $125,286,355

 

Is it known yet where all of these cars have ended up at?