401 replies to this topic

[krapmeister]

So Kyle Larson believes he's a better all round racer than Max Verstappen:

https://www.floracin...-max-verstappen

And he probably has a point - though you could also argue that the disciplines he excels in are primarily oval-based.

Outside of F1 - and karting/F3 he did prior to that - Max is an amazing simracer, but hasn't done much of anything else (GT3s, prototypes, touring cars, rallying etx) afaik? Though I have no doubt he would likely excel, at least in the curcuit-based stuff.

Of course we are likely never to get to a point where they will have a head-to-head matchup over mulitple disciplnes to be able to tell, which is a tremendous shame. But what do you think - is Larson right, wrong, or is there not enough data to be able to say? Or are there others worth throwing into the mix as being the best all round driver of the lot?

Edited by krapmeister, 15 August 2024 - 03:44.

[Muppetmad]

Impossible to know for sure without putting it to the test. There's no reason to presume Verstappen would care to do so, but if it happened, I imagine it'd be fun to watch.

[ARTGP]

I don't think this is a Max Verstappen specific discussion. F1 drivers and ex-F1 drivers (even the average F1 drivers) have a long history of doing well and winning races outside of karting/open wheel. 

 

Fernando Alonso won the Le Mans 24 hours, the Daytona 24 hours, and had a strong performance at the Indy 500. 
Giovinazzi won Le Mans and was very fast in his one-off appearances in a GTE Ferrari. 

Juan Pablo Montoya won races in F1, Nascar, Indycar, and sportscars.

 

On the other hand, Nascar born drivers have little to no history of being quick or winning races and championships outside of oval racing. Kyle Larson drove for the winning car at the 2015 Daytona 24 hours but as with many of the Nascar cameo appearances in this event (Jeff Gordon, Jimmie Johnson, Kyle Bush), they were the slowest drivers in their team.   I cannot think of a Nascar driver in recent times that impressed in anything outside of oval racing, not even an amateur friendly GT3 car. 

 

 

With that said, this is a great marketing opportunity and Red bull is a marketing company so let's see...

Edited by ARTGP, 15 August 2024 - 05:09.

[Wes350]

Oval based racing is almost a uniquely American discipline in the world of motorsport.

 

Many underestimate the level of refinement that has been reached in oval base racing, and it is very deceptive how difficult it is to run at the top level. No one coming from a road course background will ever be as good as someone like Larson that has been racing ovals of varying types since they were a kid.

 

Kyle Larson is certainly one of the best at what he does.

 

That being said; Kyle Larson is #&$%ing Delusional here:

 

“There’s no way (Verstappen) can get into a Sprint Car and win the Knoxville Nationals. There’s no way he can go win the Chili Bowl. There’s no way he can go win a Cup race at Bristol,” Larson continued. “There’s probably no way I can go win a Formula 1 race at Monaco, but I think I’d have a better shot at him (doing what he does than him doing what I do) just because of the car element.

 

“That’s what gives me ease and confidence that, like, I know I’m better than him. Maybe not in an open-wheel IndyCar or Formula 1 car, but that’s one discipline. I think I would beat him in everything else. You can quote that.”

 

 

His entire claim is based entirely on oval racing... A discipline no one outside the US does.

 

Jimmy Johnson at least had the fortitude to run a full season in Indycar and see what's up. Mad respect.

 

And Larson isn't even close to Jimmy Johnson levels of achievement in Nascar. Van Gisbergen gave him the business when they raced on road courses together. Scott McLaughlin would do the same. 

 

In F1, GT3, prototypes, or touring cars, Verstappen would cook him.

 

In Indycar Larson would do well on the ovals. On street and road courses; he would be regularly lit up.

 

ARTGP has it about right. 

 

The fact is that American oval fans can be very myopic with their motorsport worldview.

 

 

Out of morbid curiosity; Where did all this 'Larson is the best in the world' nonsense start?

Edited by Wes350, 15 August 2024 - 05:07.

[MikeTekRacing]

LOL

[Nobody]

Race of Champions you know what to do...

[Peat]

 

His entire claim is based entirely on oval racing... A discipline no one outside the US does.

 

 

Not entriely true. The UK has a small stock car scene and Austrailia has a dirt oval racing scene. 

I rate Larson, extremely adaptable driver. But if it's anything non-oval related i'd probably back Max. 

[Beri]

It is a pitty that drivers these days cant do various categories of racing anymore in one season. Its not like we are seeing the likes of Clark, Gurney, Bonnier or Siffert. 

[baddog]

Its actually pretty funny.

[Anderis]

Giovinazzi won Le Mans

The number of mediocre F1 drivers who won Le Mans must be very significant.

 

The 2009 winner crew of David Brabham, Marc Gene and Alex Wurz is a good example.

[Anderis]

Impossible to know for sure without putting it to the test. There's no reason to presume Verstappen would care to do so, but if it happened, I imagine it'd be fun to watch.

Even if Verstappen cared to do so, I don't know how you would ever going to do that realistically.

 

The number of times they would need to race against each other in various different racing series to have a sample size big enough to mean anything in establishing a better "all round" driver makes it impossible to happen unless both drivers commit their entire careers to it (which could be a great challenge to popularise various racing series but otherwise a stupid and unrealistic move for both drivers ).

[Boxerevo]

 

No problems with self-esteem.

Edited by Boxerevo, 15 August 2024 - 08:00.

[SenorSjon]

Did he win anything with corners going to the right? He has no clue.

[Muppetmad]

Did he win anything with corners going to the right? He has no clue.

One of his NASCAR wins this year was on a road course.

[BRG]

The number of mediocre F1 drivers who won Le Mans must be very significant.

You do need to be pretty damned good to even qualify to be a mediocre F1 driver.  Apart from this year, you need to go back to 2010 to find a team of winners with no F1 experience (I am streching a point over Neel Jani in 2016!) so mediocre F1 expertise would seem to be a very handy thing to have at Le Mans.

[GregThomas]

Not entriely true. The UK has a small stock car scene and Austrailia has a dirt oval racing scene. 

I rate Larson, extremely adaptable driver. But if it's anything non-oval related i'd probably back Max. 

Australia and New Zealand have a flourishing dirt oval scene. Kiwis and Australians go to the US to race and the Americans come here.

 

But if you want an adaptable driver look at Shane Van Gisberg.  

 

He's won on dirt ovals in sprint cars.

He's won in Formula Regional single seaters - winning an NZGP along the way

He's placed well up in WRC. And in local rallies too.

He's won in Nascar

He's won in Aussie V8 Supercars

 

And still young enough to try other disciplines

[BelievableNonsense]

I see no issue with his statement.

 

To be the best of the best, the top 0.1%, you have to be deluded. You're trying to become/prove you are extraordinary so you make extraordinary claims. You have to cut out everyone on the side lines saying you can't do it and have the self belief that you can. 

 

You don't make it to the top thinking you'll be second to anyone. 

[Anja]

Out of morbid curiosity; Where did all this 'Larson is the best in the world' nonsense start?

 

This is my question as well. I don't follow Nascar that closely so I'm confused why is he supposed to be sooooo good while only winning one championship. 

[JeePee]

Outside of F1 - and karting/F3 he did prior to that - Max is an amazing simracer, but hasn't done much of anything else (GT3s, prototypes, touring cars, rallying etx) afaik? Though I have no doubt he would likely excel, at least in the curcuit-based stuff.

I'm hearing some stories pop up every now and then from people inside the teams of the GT3's and Porsche Cups he's testing in the off season. He is incredibly quick in them.

 

I have zero doubt Max would smoke Larson in any car, on any track that goes both left and right.

[jonklug]

Not trying to be facetious here, but who is Kyle Larson? Legit the first time I hear of this name. So 10/10 definitely better than Max Verstappen!

[Myrvold]

Race of Champions you know what to do...

Carl Edwards did beat Michael Schumacher there.

[Collombin]

Carl Edwards did beat Michael Schumacher there.

And Jacky Ickx (one of the greatest all rounders) was a dreadful IROC driver. Proves nothing.

[ensign14]

Fernando Alonso won the Le Mans 24 hours, the Daytona 24 hours, and had a strong performance at the Indy 500.
 

 

Nearly as fast as Pippa Mann.

[ANF]

That being said; Kyle Larson is #&$%ing Delusional here:

“There’s no way (Verstappen) can get into a Sprint Car and win the Knoxville Nationals. There’s no way he can go win the Chili Bowl. There’s no way he can go win a Cup race at Bristol,” Larson continued. “There’s probably no way I can go win a Formula 1 race at Monaco, but I think I’d have a better shot at him (doing what he does than him doing what I do) just because of the car element.

“That’s what gives me ease and confidence that, like, I know I’m better than him. Maybe not in an open-wheel IndyCar or Formula 1 car, but that’s one discipline. I think I would beat him in everything else. You can quote that.”

 

“I think I would beat him in everything else. You can quote that.”
I wonder if this final bit was a tongue-in-cheek comment to wind up the answer? Or is he just very cocky? I've only seen some interviews with him during the Indy 500 weeks.

[SenorSjon]

This is my question as well. I don't follow Nascar that closely so I'm confused why is he supposed to be sooooo good while only winning one championship. 

 

In the US you have more world championships that are very local to the continent like the World League Baseball.

[PayasYouRace]

The number of mediocre F1 drivers who won Le Mans must be very significant.

The 2009 winner crew of David Brabham, Marc Gene and Alex Wurz is a good example.

Flip that around and it’s the number of Le Mans legends who were mediocre in F1.

[IrvTheSwerve]

I think ‘horses for courses’ is the expression we’re looking for.

[Myrvold]

And Jacky Ickx (one of the greatest all rounders) was a dreadful IROC driver. Proves nothing.

That was the main point indeed ^^

[IrvTheSwerve]

That said, I think the skill needed to operate the fastest cars in the world prepare F1 drivers for other categories the best. We’ve seen F1 drivers jump to plenty of other categories and be competitive immediately.

 

Stick Max in a NASCAR and I’d say it would be far more likely that he gets a top 5 finish than putting Larson in an F1 car and him finishing in the top 15 (obviously would depend on the machinery but I think even if he was put in something like a Mercedes that would be the case).

[LolaB0860]

.Stick Max in a NASCAR and I’d say it would be far more likely that he gets a top 5 finish than putting Larson in an F1 car and him finishing in the top 15 (obviously would depend on the machinery but I think even if he was put in something like a Mercedes that would be the case).

Verstappen would easily do top 5 at Road America, but probably not hitting even Top 25 at Talladega or wherever

But yes I assume Larson would be Latifi level

Edited by LolaB0860, 15 August 2024 - 10:07.

[Anderis]

Flip that around and it’s the number of Le Mans legends who were mediocre in F1.

I like my order better because, in recent years at least, the drivers usually drove Le Mans after their F1 stint, not before.

[PayasYouRace]

I like my order better because, in recent years at least, the drivers usually drove Le Mans after their F1 stint, not before.

F1 is a good feeder series for Le Mans.

[jonpollak]

To answer Wes350 and Anja about where this hype came from.

Originally and the first place I heard it was… Robin Miller.

But those saying SVG or Scotty Mac get more credence from me.

We STILL need that REAL Drivers World Championship for any of these considerations though.

Jp

[Sterzo]

To be fair to Kyle Larson, he was asked a daft question by a journalist, and had probably never thought about the subject before. And his answer includes the following:

 

“There’s probably no way I can go win a Formula 1 race at Monaco, but I think I’d have a better shot at him (doing what he does than him doing what I do) just because of the car element.

“That’s what gives me ease and confidence that, like, I know I’m better than him. Maybe not in an open-wheel IndyCar or Formula 1 car, but that’s one discipline. I think I would beat him in everything else. You can quote that.”

 

So we can pick his words to our choice. "I know I’m better than him" sounds a little extreme, but he qualifies it by saying "Maybe not in an open-wheel IndyCar or Formula 1 car." And by "anything else" he clearly means his own categories.

[Secretariat]

In other words, Larson is saying he is better at driving cars he is used to driving and Verstappen is better at driving cars that he is used to driving. I suppose after his Indy stuff, he can validly add the caveat that he has a better chance at doing better in Verstappen's discipline than the other way round.

 

So basically Larson is advocating the position: talent plus experience is useful to have if you are going to be very good in your chosen discipline and profession. It's not particularly earth shattering but I guess when your chosen profession is a laughing stock during it's most important part of it's season and losing some ground to the "Euros" in popularity, you have to say something, I guess. 

[FLB]

And Jacky Ickx (one of the greatest all rounders) was a dreadful IROC driver. Proves nothing.

Counter-point: Martin Brundle was a fantastic IROC driver in 1990 (won at Cleveland, was spun out by Rusty Wallace in what looked like a purposeful move at Michigan).

 

So... I guess I kinda agree with you (i.e. I think it's case-by-case) 

[Gabrci]

Not trying to be facetious here, but who is Kyle Larson? Legit the first time I hear of this name.

 

Exactly the same here, I have no clue who he is. Although this part of what he says is most definitely true:

 

“There’s no way (Verstappen) can get into a Sprint Car and win the Knoxville Nationals. There’s no way he can go win the Chili Bowl. There’s no way he can go win a Cup race at Bristol,”

 

The main reason being that never in his life will Verstappen hear of these races (what the hell are these btw?), and it's really difficult to win them like that. 

[Collombin]

Counter-point: Martin Brundle was a fantastic IROC driver in 1990 (won at Cleveland, was spun out by Rusty Wallace in what looked like a purposeful move at Michigan).

So... I guess I kinda agree with you (i.e. I think it's case-by-case)

I remember Brundle doing pretty well in the BBC Rally Sprint event one year too, a 3 stage competition consisting of a rally stage, a timed driving skills test and a circuit race. Strangely it was the circuit race that cost him victory, he won the driving skills part quite handily against some good rally drivers.

That's settled then. We need Larson v Brundle.

[Muppetmad]

I feel the need to say, gently, that ignorance of American motorsport isn't a virtue, nor does it detract from the skill involved in being successful within it.

 

Edit: brain fade in verb choice...

Edited by Muppetmad, 15 August 2024 - 11:13.

[Peat]

Exactly the same here, I have no clue who he is. Although this part of what he says is most definitely true:

 

 

The main reason being that never in his life will Verstappen hear of these races (what the hell are these btw?), and it's really difficult to win them like that. 

 

Ignorance is a flex now?

[JeePee]

The main reason being that never in his life will Verstappen hear of these races (what the hell are these btw?), and it's really difficult to win them like that. 

Verstappen might be a bit more into oval racing than you think:

 

 

This is Verstappen's account. He did some ovals for fun, especially in 2020.

[Gambelli]

Wonder what Kyle thinks of SVG then who was able to come over and win on debut in NASCAR... better than both Verstappen AND Larson?  I didn't see Larson stopping SVG that day.

 

I know it's not about SVG BTW, but he does serve as proof that someone can come in with no NASCAR experience and poo in their cereal.... there's no real proof of that back the other way.

 

I'd back Max to beat him in everything except maybe a NASCAR on and Oval, but again, what would I know!  I have nothing to base that on.  But I also don't mind him having the guts to put it out there and truly believe it, in fact i think thats pretty awesome!

[JeePee]

Verstappen might be a bit more into oval racing than you think:

 

 

This is Verstappen's account. He did some ovals for fun, especially in 2020.

I forgot Larson also had an account on iRacing. He was infamously banned on it.

 

 

Verstappens stats are better 

[Myrvold]

Wonder what Kyle thinks of SVG then who was able to come over and win on debut in NASCAR... better than both Verstappen AND Larson?  I didn't see Larson stopping SVG that day.

 

I know it's not about SVG BTW, but he does serve as proof that someone can come in with no NASCAR experience and poo in their cereal.... there's no real proof of that back the other way.

 

I'd back Max to beat him in everything except maybe a NASCAR on and Oval, but again, what would I know!  I have nothing to base that on.  But I also don't mind him having the guts to put it out there and truly believe it, in fact i think thats pretty awesome!

 

You mean when a driver who at the time had won the two last Supercars championship, with 15 years experience V8 Stock Cars that races several races on street courses. Joined a series with V8 Stock Cars (that, with the next gen were closer to the Australian cars than before), which had never done a single street race before, with just some of the drivers having done IMSA street races?

 

It's not exactly the same as switching between F1 and NASCAR. I wouldn't be surprised if the Aussie Supercars championship is the closest you get to NASCAR Cup without being a NASCAR-series.

[danmills]

Clever move from Larson. He's putting the seed out there to get him in an F1 car to test whilst his stock is high. 

 

The way RB are, he will end up in VCARB next season out of nowhere 

Edited by danmills, 15 August 2024 - 11:51.

[Gabrci]

Ignorance is a flex now?

 

I didn't mean to, just tried to point out the absurdity of this fairly unknown driver implying that the reigning 3 times F1 World Champion couldn't win what sound like some village events (or a dish), or would even have the slightest interest in trying to win them. 

[NCB619]

Fair points I read above re: Oval racing being primarily a US thing.

Not motorsport, but makes me think of converts to American Football and Rugby, etc

[thefinalapex]

If you read his whole comment its not as bad/arrogant as the title says. I think Larson was very levelheaded with his comment and as pointed out before in this thread, its the self confidence you need to have in the top to believe you can beat anyone.

[SenorSjon]

That said, I think the skill needed to operate the fastest cars in the world prepare F1 drivers for other categories the best. We’ve seen F1 drivers jump to plenty of other categories and be competitive immediately.

 

Stick Max in a NASCAR and I’d say it would be far more likely that he gets a top 5 finish than putting Larson in an F1 car and him finishing in the top 15 (obviously would depend on the machinery but I think even if he was put in something like a Mercedes that would be the case).

 

Only DTM used to be very hard for F1 drivers. Hakkinen, Alesi didn't really find their footing there.

 

Clever move from Larson. He's putting the seed out there to get him in an F1 car to test whilst his stock is high. 

 

The way RB are, he will end up in VCARB next season out of nowhere 

 

How many SL points does NASCAR give?

[Spillage]

I daresay both are better than the other in their individual disciplines. I would probably back Kyle to beat Max in most cars on most ovals and Max to beat Kyle in most cars on most road and street courses.