33 replies to this topic

[aportinga]

Just thinking over the course of the break, what if the back of the grid was allowed to continue to develop the car and test?

 

Whether it is possible or not, could it provide an opportunity for gains of any sort?

[Stephane]

They are probably the ones who need the break the most

[noikeee]

So their staff doesn't need any holidays then?

[jonpollak]

Punish the back markers with no break.
fckuin’ stupid idea dude.
Sheesh

Jp

[JL14]

They are not going to close the gap in 2 weeks.

So it won't make a difference, except for their development to suffer later on because of burn-out.

[DeKnyff]

Wives / husbands / kids of the employees wouldn’t be happy.

[danmills]

I don't know when the world got to the point where we always look 10,000 miles from the simplicity of the question and focus on finding problems lol.

 

At face value, yes, it would probably benefit the lesser teams massively. I'd go as far to say let the back three do a 2 day test as well.

 

Logistically and for staff? Sure, the whole concept of a summer break is affected. But teams are huge. You dont need to send a large team to a test. There are probably already rotations on positions anyway, plus some people may actually enjoy their work.

 

An extra opportunity to improve is a great incentive for a struggling team. Most of the working world work all year with no big breaks, I dont see how the factory being open is any different to an office worker commuting to London or a plumber?

 

I work all year too but I dont get a massive block of summer off. I might book 2 weeks in the sun, and a few odd long weekends. And Christmas. And Bank Holidays. All of those are available to F1 teams as well, arguably the 2 weeks in summer being slightly limited in choice but then no different to families with kids having to book in the 6 weeks of summer holiday. 

 

Not sure where the sympathy bells got rung so hard for F1 workers? They're as human as all of us.

 

The trackside members are busy travelling all year but that's part and parcel of the role. They do get chances for holidays. They also get the winter breaks.

 

People don't join F1 to get a summer break, the same way teachers don't. It's a bonus perk, not a right.

 

Open the doors for summer for the bottom three teams.

Edited by danmills, 16 August 2024 - 17:17.

[JL14]

I work all year too but I dont get a massive block of summer off. I might book 2 weeks in the sun

You know the summer break is only 2 weeks for the teams, right? 
While there is more time between the Spa and Zandvoort races, the factory only shuts down for 2 weeks. 

Article 21.8 of the FIA F1 sporting regulations: "All competitors must observe a shutdown period of fourteen (14) consecutive days during the months of July and / or August."

Edited by JL14, 16 August 2024 - 17:23.

[danmills]

Factory workers 2 weeks.

 

Trackside workers it's a month between events of no travelling.

 

Staff know the deal, if you dont like the terms you don't take the job, be it the F1 circus or ASDA supermarket.

 

Don't forget the trackside operations intensity plateaus over winter.

Edited by danmills, 16 August 2024 - 18:30.

[JL14]

Factory workers 2 weeks.

 

Trackside workers it's a month between events of no travelling.

 

Staff know the deal, if you dont like the terms you don't take the job, be it the F1 circus or ASDA supermarket. 

 

Trackside will be doing analysis and stuff as well at the factory.

It's not like they have a week off each time there's no back-to-back raceweekend.

Edited by JL14, 16 August 2024 - 18:10.

[danmills]

Point stands, it's no different to average Joe holidays.

 

Most ordinary people get a few weeks off if they're lucky. Otherwise it's weekends or odds and sods. Many also work weekend jobs.

 

They know the deal taking their job roles. They get paid decent wages for it too. That's life.

 

ASDA don't do a dedicated shut down. This is no different in principle. 

Edited by danmills, 16 August 2024 - 18:34.

[DeKnyff]

I work all year too but I dont get a massive block of summer off. I might book 2 weeks in the sun, and a few odd long weekends. And Christmas. And Bank Holidays. All of those are available to F1 teams as well, arguably the 2 weeks in summer being slightly limited in choice but then no different to families with kids having to book in the 6 weeks of summer holiday. 

 

Not sure where the sympathy bells got rung so hard for F1 workers? They're as human as all of us.

 

The summer break is four weeks between races, but teams will have to work the week previous to the restart (preparing and sending the cars, etc.). That leaves three weeks, which is the standard summer vacation period for European companies.

[danmills]

Not sure a standard summer vacation period is actually a thing, at least I have never heard of it in the UK. Might exist in words but it's certainly not materialised into any sort of agreed allowance?

 

Either way, I think opening the development options for the bottom three would be good. Be it open doors over summer or an extra test.

[ARTGP]

Not sure a standard summer vacation period is actually a thing, at least I have never heard of it in the UK. Might exist in words but it's certainly not materialised into any sort of agreed allowance?

 

Either way, I think opening the development options for the bottom three would be good. Be it open doors over summer or an extra test.

 

The backmarkers already have a lot of extra windtunnel time. The problem is that they have the same budget (or less) than the others. 

 

If you were going to spend all of the budget cap in the season, what difference would it make if you had 2 more weeks to spend it vs the competition? The quantity of work allotted is the same. 

Edited by ARTGP, 16 August 2024 - 19:52.

[aportinga]

So their staff doesn't need any holidays then?

 

 

 

Punish the back markers with no break.
fckuin’ stupid idea dude.
Sheesh

 

 

"What if they were allowed"

 

It's not the "fckuin" gulag for gods sake.

 

Edited by aportinga, 16 August 2024 - 20:01.

[messy]

I really thought we were going to get pictures of Guanyu Zhou invigilating an A-level geology exam, or Logan Sargeant waiting tables at TGI Fridays here, following on from Seb Vettel picking apples and turning them into petrol or whatever the other year. Disappointed.

[Anderis]

This defeats the purpose of the summer break.

 

It may also defeat the purpose of the OP. Imagine that what actually ends up happening is engineers being more reluctant to sign with bottom 3 teams because they wouldn't get a summer break. I don't think that would help the bottom teams.

[Myrvold]

Not sure a standard summer vacation period is actually a thing, at least I have never heard of it in the UK. Might exist in words but it's certainly not materialised into any sort of agreed allowance?

 

At least 4 weeks paid holiday a year for EU. That is a mandate that all EU countries must grant by law.

Apparently in the UK you are entitled to 28 days (5.6 work weeks/4 full weeks), those does however include the public holidays.

 

E.g in Norway we say that we have 4 weeks + 1 day. As it is a minimum of 25 days, and a "work week" is Mon-Sat. Public holidays are not included in those days, and unless you are paid by the hour, public holidays are... well, just an extra day off.
Here we have the right to have 3 weeks of these in a row anywhere between 1st of June and 30th of September. We are allowed to spread them more through the year, but that is the choice of the employee, not the employer.

[noikeee]

Yeah exactly it's a workers right by law in all of Europe. Not necessarily having a whole straight month in summer, but having right about that amount of days per year.

It could work if there's enough staff I guess, if they don't all take holidays at the same time, might be even better for the staff as they could then pick some other days for holidays without being forced to take it in August, but then these teams are exactly the ones with the least staff.

It's just easier to use or extend the already existing catch-up mechanisms of the backmarkers having extra wind tunnel hours.

Edited by noikeee, 16 August 2024 - 22:21.

[loki]

I was able to work many summers in Europe because of the vacation schedule.  In the olden days it was difficult to get some specialized things done particularly in Spain, Italy or Greece.  Worst case we had to have something flown in from Jolly Old.  However if you wanted to do things like shopping, dining, tourist things or entertainment there was quite a bit.  Big fan of mandatory time off.  I get 25 work days a year, have to take some mandated time off (like this week), can only cash out a week a year and can't carry over more than 80 hours.  I don’t know that I’d make it during a race season but everyone needs some breaks.

[danmills]

Bit of a language barrier got that misunderstood. We call it annual leave in the UK or generally holiday leave.

 

When you said a standard summer vacation break I thought you implied we had a mandatory break allowance specifically for summer.

 

Holiday can be taken any time. All of January if desired. Obviously most spread it over the year, or typically off in summer because many have kids out of school term time.

 

It was easier in the 90s and 00s. Today schools fine parents if they take holiday in term time. My parents took us out to Florida many times in May during term, teachers were absolutely fine. They felt seeing the Kennedy Space Centre or watching Turtles lay eggs was more valuable than ordinary school and two weeks wouldn't matter in the wider picture. 

 

So yeh, the summer break probably helps parent's predominantly.

Edited by danmills, 16 August 2024 - 23:19.

[Mat13]

They’d lose their staff to teams who did break.

[Clatter]

Bit of a language barrier got that misunderstood. We call it annual leave in the UK or generally holiday leave.

When you said a standard summer vacation break I thought you implied we had a mandatory break allowance specifically for summer.

Holiday can be taken any time. All of January if desired. Obviously most spread it over the year, or typically off in summer because many have kids out of school term time.

It was easier in the 90s and 00s. Today schools fine parents if they take holiday in term time. My parents took us out to Florida many times in May during term, teachers were absolutely fine. They felt seeing the Kennedy Space Centre or watching Turtles lay eggs was more valuable than ordinary school and two weeks wouldn't matter in the wider picture.

So yeh, the summer break probably helps parent's predominantly.

In the UK factories used to have mandatory breaks. They would close for one or two weeks during the summer.

[Joseki]

Entirely pointless.

 

1- Two weeks are in the F1 world almost no time. Two weeks is the production time of some of the more complex parts of a F1 car. An update package is studied for 1-2 months in CFD/wind tunnel before going in production.

2- With the budget cap, there isn't even the money to do "extra" work, they only thing that will realistically achieve is bringing forward an update package 1 or 2 races.

 

Also please let the team worker rest. They have families, they stay away from home 24 race weekends + testing, they deserve it.

[Secretariat]

Just thinking over the course of the break, what if the back of the grid was allowed to continue to develop the car and test?

 

Whether it is possible or not, could it provide an opportunity for gains of any sort?

In answering the sporting question asked, I think that there would be some performance gains. However, I think those gains would be lost as it relates to the race outcomes due to mistakes (pit errors, quality control at races and so on) due to overworked staff. So, gaining a tenth but losing positions or not gaining any due to errors would probably twice as frustrating. 

[pdac]

Personally, I think if the back markers were allowed to keep their factories open, they would just close them anyway. If all teams were allowed to, they would. But if only some teams are allowed, the probably would think it's better for staff morale to close like the others.

Edited by pdac, 18 August 2024 - 13:41.

[danmills]

In the UK factories used to have mandatory breaks. They would close for one or two weeks during the summer.

 

Was this 70s Labour by chance?

[Clatter]

Was this 70s Labour by chance?

No, it was tradition from years before. It wasn't set by the government, by mandatory I meant the factory bosses ruled that everyone would take their leave at the same time. It was cheaper to close for a week or 2, than run short staffed.

[pdac]

Was this 70s Labour by chance?

 

More to do with factory owners. It's difficult to keep your production line running efficiently if half of your staff are away on annual leave. Much better to get everyone to take their leave at the same time and close the entire operation down for two weeks.

 

It's not just factories, though. I used to work for a smallish company that gave everyone the 3 days between Christmas and New Year off. They did that because it was pleasing to the staff, but also because it was a slow time of year anyway and also because otherwise many would take the time off anyway but they would still have to keep the heating and lighting running for those that did not. It was very little extra cost to the company just to shut down.

Edited by pdac, 18 August 2024 - 17:12.

[PayasYouRace]

Our factory still does a shutdown over the Christmas and New Year fortnight. 

[danmills]

No, it was tradition from years before. It wasn't set by the government, by mandatory I meant the factory bosses ruled that everyone would take their leave at the same time. It was cheaper to close for a week or 2, than run short staffed.

 

So a very outdated requirement by comparison to today and this example then!

[danmills]

More to do with factory owners. It's difficult to keep your production line running efficiently if half of your staff are away on annual leave. Much better to get everyone to take their leave at the same time and close the entire operation down for two weeks.

 

It's not just factories, though. I used to work for a smallish company that gave everyone the 3 days between Christmas and New Year off. They did that because it was pleasing to the staff, but also because it was a slow time of year anyway and also because otherwise many would take the time off anyway but they would still have to keep the heating and lighting running for those that did not. It was very little extra cost to the company just to shut down.

 

I think many still do this, my company still enforces the 3 day Xmas thing because we reflect our major clients that also do it. No point working when the recipients of our efforts are away.

[JonTon]

I think it's an interesting idea but not fair on the team personnel to make breaks any shorter than at present. Maybe it could be an option in some way if the mid season break was increased to be achieved by reducing the number of races.

[Clatter]

So a very outdated requirement by comparison to today and this example then!

The reasons might be different, but not sure it's really that different otherwise.