35 replies to this topic

[Magoo]

With my 2020 Tesla 3 RWD approaching 47,000 miles, it was time for new tires. The OE Continental ProContacts (235/40R19) were down to 4/32" (3 mm and change) and had grown progressively noisier. By the way, that is considered exceptional tire life for a Tesla 3. Apparently I really do drive like an old woman. 

 

So I looked into the new generation of EV-specific tires and ultimately chose the Hankook Evo Ion, partially on the info in the video below from our friend Jason Fenske. These tires feature an EV-specific compound, construction, sidewall profile, and tread design, as well as a sound-damping foam insert under the tread. This was my first go with Hankook. On my daily drivers, I usually just get Michelins and forget about it. Michelin has a tire recommended for Tesla called the Cross Contact. It's reportedly very quiet, but when I look at the tread it resembles an old-school snow tire to me, so I passed. I suppose that shows what I know about tread design. 

 

After 500 miles or so, I can report that I am very pleased with the Hankook Evo Ions. Grip is indistinguishable from the Contis; on-center feel might be slightly less but they're new. Number one for me is they are astonishingly quiet. I got a 6 dB noise reduction in the cabin at 70 mph, which is a little hard to believe, but then the Contis were well worn. To be honest, noise was my arch consideration in this tire selection. EVs make very little sound elsewhere so tire noise becomes relatively deafening. 

 

Also hard to believe: I saw an apparently huge improvement in energy efficiency, from 219 Wh/mi to 191 Wh/mi average in non-highway driving. Frankly, that is hard to swallow. Something must have changed in my daily driving habits. Also, I was running the Contis at 41 psi for better ride while so far the Hankooks are at 45 psi. Anyway, this is what I've found and you might find it interesting. 

 

 

Edited by Magoo, 25 August 2024 - 19:12.

[Nathan]

That looks like a copy/paste corporate write up.. Has anyone tried regular non-ECO tires to see if they have more durability?

[Magoo]

It's a sponsored video and he's obviously using their B-roll but I trust him to tell it on the level. 

[jcbc3]

Yes, but....

 

If it was so easy and there is absolutely no downside to tires of this construction (and rightly, hats off to Hankook) why are gas engined car tires so shite in either, roadholding, comfort, noise, rain dispersement etc. I have yet to see an independent test where any one tire score top mark in all categories. There is ALWAYS a trade of. And he fails to tell us for this specific tire.

[just me again]

If you are allowed to drive with 200km/h tyres, then the Michelin tyres the Highland are fitted with are a good choice.
Tesla lowered the top speed on the Highland to be able to run tyres with a lower resistance!

[Magoo]

If you are allowed to drive with 200km/h tyres, then the Michelin tyres the Highland are fitted with are a good choice.
Tesla lowered the top speed on the Highland to be able to run tyres with a lower resistance!

 

Which Michelin tire is that? 

[MikeTekRacing]

I have 32k miles on my LR model Y and I think I have about 10-15k miles in them max.
I'll keep a close eye on replacement. Had 2 flat tyres with nails, rotated the tyres front->back about every 10k miles.

I drive a lot of highway, I don't push them too hard in corners (try to take care of my safety score for FSD) but I do launch pretty often (doesn't affect safety score so i do it)

[Greg Locock]

"why are gas engined car tires so shite in either, roadholding, comfort, noise, rain dispersement etc" Because tires are an engineered compromise. There is no magic solution that delivers everything to every customer. Typically we use a radar plot for various attributes, and as you push for (say) longer life, then dry lateral grip will reduce. If you want wet weather grip, dry road noise will increase. And so on and so on. In particular our glorious government pushes for reduced driveby noise, of which tire noise is the dominant component these days. To reduce that we have to reduce wet road long grip. So team nuff-nuff are saying that noise is more important than safety.

 

It's not really a science, but there are sciencey bits. Of the various manufacturers Michelin probably lead the pack for analytical abilities, other companies come up with good tires sometimes (my favorite tire on a Falcon was a Yokohama, but I wouldn't want to keep them very long). Michelin's QC is a factor of 2 better than some other manufacturers. It took one manufacturer two years to come up with a tire as good as our image tire, which was being produced in hundreds of thousands per year.

[jcbc3]

...

 

We agree. The reference to gas engine tires was to ask why this particular video did NOT tell us about the trade-off(s)

[Magoo]

I agree on the superiority of Michelin tires. For a number of years there, it seemed as though Michelin was manufacturing tires and everyone else was making black, approximately round things. Especially the U.S. tire makers. 

 

In fact, would have purchased Michelins in this most recent go-around except for this: Below is the recommended all-season tire for Tesla, the Cross Climate. I don't know what to make of this tread design. It's said to be extremely quiet, but I had doubts. 

 

I would expect that once the tire runs a few thousand miles, the tread ribs would wear at a slightly uneven rate and start to sing like an old snow tire. Now, I am told that the ribs are interconnected in some special, subtle way to prevent it, but I don't know about that. So I passed and went with the Hankooks. it was time to try something new and different anyway. A tire-buying adventure. If it doesn't work out I have no one to blame but myself. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Magoo, 28 August 2024 - 22:09.

[cbo]

I agree on the superiority of Michelin tires. For a number of years there, it seemed as though Michelin was manufacturing tires and everyone else was making black, approximately round things. Especially the U.S. tire makers.

In fact, would have purchased Michelins in this most recent go-around except for this: Below is the recommended all-season tire for Tesla, the Cross Climate. I don't know what to make of this tread design. It's said to be extremely quiet, but I had doubts.

I would expect that once the tire runs a few thousand miles, the tread ribs would wear at a slightly uneven rate and start to sing like an old snow tire. Now, I am told that the ribs are interconnected in some special, subtle way to prevent it, but I don't know about that. So I passed and went with the Hankooks. it was time to try something new and different anyway. A tire-buying adventure. If it doesn't work out I have no one to blame but myself.

I've got the CrossClimate tires on my PHEV. They are bit louder than the Hankook summertires the car was sold with, but less noisy than the Continental Wintercontact tires I used for winter driving.

[just me again]

Which Michelin tire is that?

It's the e-primacy. 235/14-18. But it's V rated. So not a 200km/t tyre!!

I think the first press cars. Might have had 200km/h rated Hankook tyres!

[desmo]

Quattroruote in their April issue found a remarkable difference of 137 km range difference in the urban cycle(!) in their Hyundai Kona EV testing simply by changing the wheels/tires to those speced for the Eco version onto the normal car. The Eco tires/wheels are 17", whereas the stocks are 19". Biggest downside noted were, unsurprisingly, an increase in braking distances.

[404KF2]

It's the e-primacy. 235/14-18. But it's V rated. So not a 200km/t tyre!!

Not only 200 - V is 240 km/h

[Greg Locock]

Desmo- same tire pressures? That is an astonishing difference, I hadn't thought rolling resistance due to construction was such a big contributor. eg fig 6 here shows a 40% change in RR gives a 5% change in energy consumption https://www.scienced...361920921003801

 

still, more data is good.

[404KF2]

Agree, that sounds like a nutso difference . I notice none between my all season and X-Ice snow tires, on the B200.

Edited by 404KF2, 03 September 2024 - 21:50.

[cbo]

Quattroruote in their April issue found a remarkable difference of 137 km range difference in the urban cycle(!) in their Hyundai Kona EV testing simply by changing the wheels/tires to those speced for the Eco version onto the normal car. The Eco tires/wheels are 17", whereas the stocks are 19". Biggest downside noted were, unsurprisingly, an increase in braking distances.

The new Hyundai Ioniq 5 RWD long range looses 40km WLTP range (from 570 km to 530 km) by going from a 19" (235/55)to a 20" (255/45)(7%).

The Ioniq 6 RWD long range looses 69 km WLTP range (from 614 to 545 km) going from a 18" (225/55) to a 20" 245/40) (11%).
The 4WD version goes from 583 km to 519 km, loosing 64 km WLTP range (11%).

The Ioniq 6 is a much more efficient car and takes a bigger hit when using the larger tire. Allegedly because it disturbes some of the aerodynamics.

Being WLTP, it may not reflect what happens once you get the car on an actual road.

BTW, the Kona WLTP range drops from 508 to 472 km - 36 km (7%) - when going from 17" to 19" - a lot less then the urban cycle test by the Italian magazine suggests.

Edited by cbo, 05 September 2024 - 12:57.

[Greg Locock]

These changes in ranges are useful, but we need to know the baseline to make it very useful.

[cbo]

These changes in ranges are useful, but we need to know the baseline to make it very useful.

I have amended my post - there was also some confusion between the old and new model of the Ioniq 5....

[Greg Locock]

Good job. 10%ish is still pretty surprising to me. Engine guys would kill for 10%

[gruntguru]

IMO all because:

 1. The very nature of an EV (regen braking, almost constant energy conversion efficiency) means a far higher proportion of the stored (battery) energy is expended on overcoming road losses (friction and drag) than ICE cars.

 2. EV designers are more focused on minimising road losses thanks to: a) the importance of range, b) the inability to make much improvement elsewhere (driveline).

 

Hence "range" is far more sensitive to friction and drag than an ICE car.

[Magoo]

I am still marveling at the huge improvement with the Hankook Evo Ion tires and trying to rationalize it. Beats me, so far. 

[Greg Locock]

rule of thumb is that regen reduces the urban cycle sensitivity to mass by 40% (that's an old Prius result). Another is that the loop of regen=> acceleration is about 60% efficient overall. So loss of KE by regen->battery-> motor =>gain of KE loses about 40%.

[mariner]

The late John Miles , of  Lotus F!, Lotus dynamics and Multimatic,  is the only top level car dynamics guy I have ever held a long conversation  with but as his CV was pretty impressive i wil trust this comment of his on tyre wear. " it's not high lateral forces which wear tyres out, it's high londitudinal forces"

 

On that basis I would suspect any EV with frequest or heavy  regen. would use its tyres faster?

 

Also it would be interesting to know if EV tyres have the wear index (WI) moulded in as do many tyres in USA. Given that the SCCA etc. mandate "200 or higher"  WI some cynics suggest ti's not too accurate on control tyres. However if it is put on EV tyres what is the number?

 

Speaking of teh SCCA an article  in Grassroots Motorsport magazine about racing , or at least lapping a Tesla was interesting. The one thing the tuner emphasied heavily was " use forged wheels" becuase Tesla's are heavy and cast ones are not safe. 

 

Do all l EV's use forged wheels or teh raod I wonder?

Edited by mariner, 08 September 2024 - 16:33.

[Greg Locock]

Aftermarket alloy wheels are often gravity cast. We were not allowed to use them on public roads.

[gruntguru]

On that basis I would suspect any EV with frequent or heavy regen. would use its tyres faster?

 

Perhaps true for heavy regen on 2WD EVs. Even then it would be straightforward to:  limit the regen, add braking at the other axle if additional retardation is required, add braking at both axles at higher levels.

For AWD EVs it shouldn't matter how the retardation is applied.

In either case, electronically controlled braking should be capable of controlling slip percentage and potentially offer less tyre wear than manual braking.

[Greg Locock]

I'd agree with John, the bulk of tire wear is in braking and acceleration, simply because in road use the accelerations are higher. Also when flat trac testing we only do the bare minimum of longitudinal testing as it chews the tire up faster than the lateral sweeps.

[gruntguru]

Getting back to EV tyre wear, the tyre wear resulting from deceleration is determined by the driver and not the fact of the car being an EV.

[Magoo]

I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying I must not be following the reasoning that regen braking results in greater longitudinal wear than mashing the pedal with one's foot. 

 

The decel rates are similar to foot braking but more consistent. When I learned one-pedal driving with the Tesla, which has an aggressive regen program, I discovered that when I came out of the throttle, the car would brake itself to a stop right around where I would have, at the signal. That's my personal experience, anyway. 

[MikeTekRacing]

yeah, you learn to raise your foot off the throttle to modulate regen. Very rarely do I touch the brakes, mostly when I am driving too fast/aggressive and of course i need to stop on a dime

[Magoo]

Leaving the brake pedal alone is also an effective way to keep your Tesla Safety Score high. 

 

My Safety Score runs 97-98. I estimate that Full Self Driving might score around 70.

 

I'm not saying FSD drives in an unsafe manner, but it is considerably less smooth than I like to drive. 

Edited by Magoo, 10 September 2024 - 21:58.

[desmo]

Does air volume within the tire air chamber matter in automotive practice as it does in bicycles?  For decades among bicyclists it was accepted that lower volume tires at higher pressures will minimize rolling resistance. That's intuitive, right? Turns out not to have been true. I wonder if it could be as simple as smaller wheels and increased tire volume lowering rolling resistance in a similar way? 

[Greg Locock]

In 1992 Michelin developed a solar racing tire for us-up until then the consensus had been that Avocet BMX tires with natural rubber inner tubes were the way to go. They also sent a nice graph of rolling resistance of a vehicle vs tire pressure. If you take the pressure too high you pump more energy into the dampers, thereby increasing RR. I'd guess we had more air volume than the Avocets, but the big change is that instead of a long thin CP, we had a short wide one.

[Magoo]

I can report one negative property in the Hankook Evo Ion tires: they tramline a bit.

 

On concrete roads with longitudinal rain grooves, they are a little wiggly. Certainly not significant but noticeable. 

[Greg Locock]

EV tirewear - cybertruck owners moaning that if they do burnouts (longitudinal traction) the tires wear.

 

Well, whiny self entitled gits yes, that's how the world works.

 

https://www.thedrive...ting-6000-miles

 

I can kill (and have killed) a set of street tires in 400 miles. On public roads. Without getting arrested.

[404KF2]

In wore a front set of new Michelin XZX out in a weekend at the slalom track on my R-5 in 1979. Those were hockey puck hard.