139 replies to this topic

[ARTGP]

This is an anomaly. 

Edited by ARTGP, 22 September 2024 - 14:19.

[JimmyClark]

This is an anomaly. 

 

We have 20 drivers who are all pretty decent, cars that are very reliable, and circuits that are becoming ever more sanitised in terms of kerbs (leading to less mistakes/breakages) - I guess it does make sense. 

 

I still count Baku as a safety car incident, btw. So it feels a bit artificial this 'record'. 

[PayasYouRace]

Running roughly 8s of pole pace helps cars keep it on track.

 

That's been the case for most of F1 history, and it didn't stop people from binning it.

[PayasYouRace]

We have 20 drivers who are all pretty decent, cars that are very reliable, and circuits that are becoming ever more sanitised in terms of kerbs (leading to less mistakes/breakages) - I guess it does make sense. 

 

I still count Baku as a safety car incident, btw. So it feels a bit artificial this 'record'. 

 

Baku would have been if it hadn't been right at the end of the race. Still, it's a great run and it's a testament to how good the field is at the moment.

[Planetdune]

Cars are getting way to reliable. I said it before. On tracks where you cannot race they should introduce an "Entertainment Car" that is called up randomly somewhere after the first 5 laps and before the last 5. Acts just as a regular SC and lasts two laps.

Edited by Planetdune, 22 September 2024 - 14:25.

[STRFerrari4Ever]

Cars are getting way to reliable. I said it before. On tracks where you cannot race they should introduce an "Entertainment Car" that is called in randomly somewhere after the first 5 laps and before the last 5. Acts just as a regular SC and lasts two laps.

No thank you.

Edited by STRFerrari4Ever, 22 September 2024 - 14:25.

[JimmyClark]

Cars are getting way to reliable. I said it before. On tracks where you cannot race they should introduce an "Entertainment Car" that is called in randomly somewhere after the first 5 laps and before the last 5. Acts just as a regular SC and lasts two laps.

 

Sounds a bit NASCARy. 

[sterlingfan2000]

Expand the grid man. Let Andretti and Hyundai in and open up Engine Development

[PayasYouRace]

Let's remember that this run of safety car races has not been a run of boring 2004 type processions with only pit stops changing the order. They've been a run of incredible races with on track passing (often for the lead!).

 

What I actually think is that because the racing has become better, driver's aren't making as many desperate moves and causing crashes as they see only a single opportunity to make a pass or nail a fast lap. Better on track racing = fewer accidents.

 

We can't blame the circuits, because they've been ultra safe with tarmac runoffs for decades at this point, at the height of the safety car's usage in F1.

[RekF1]

Let's remember that this run of safety car races has not been a run of boring 2004 type processions with only pit stops changing the order. They've been a run of incredible races with on track passing (often for the lead!).
 
What I actually think is that because the racing has become better, driver's aren't making as many desperate moves and causing crashes as they see only a single opportunity to make a pass or nail a fast lap. Better on track racing = fewer accidents.
 
We can't blame the circuits, because they've been ultra safe with tarmac runoffs for decades at this point, at the height of the safety car's usage in F1.

I mostly agree with this, but drivers aren't making any desperate moves because they overheat their engine or tyres or deviate from the optimal racing line, they'll have their boss on the radio telling them not to push so hard.

Until Miami this was an awful season. Mixed conditions helped spice up a couple of races and RedBull struggling was a nice distraction but I do not like these cars.

[sterlingfan2000]

I mostly agree with this, but drivers aren't making any desperate moves because they overheat their engine or tyres or deviate from the optimal racing line, they'll have their boss on the radio telling them not to push so hard.

Until Miami this was an awful season. Mixed conditions helped spice up a couple of races and RedBull struggling was a nice distraction but I do not like these cars.

These cars and hybrid Engines are just horrible. This season was on of the worst until Miami when FIA made some breaking changes against Redbull

[LolaB0860]

Cars are getting way to reliable. I said it before. On tracks where you cannot race they should introduce an "Entertainment Car" that is called up randomly somewhere after the first 5 laps and before the last 5. Acts just as a regular SC and lasts two laps.

Excuse while I go and vomit now

[PayasYouRace]

I mostly agree with this, but drivers aren't making any desperate moves because they overheat their engine or tyres or deviate from the optimal racing line, they'll have their boss on the radio telling them not to push so hard.

Until Miami this was an awful season. Mixed conditions helped spice up a couple of races and RedBull struggling was a nice distraction but I do not like these cars.

Optimistic moves don’t overheat the engine, unless you forget to change gears or something else that F1 drivers are too good to do. And with the cars as racey as they are nowadays, drivers deviate from the racing line more often en uses they’re able to try different moves.

If you don’t like these cars you must have hated everything back to about 1978.

[SenorSjon]

Optimistic moves don’t overheat the engine, unless you forget to change gears or something else that F1 drivers are too good to do. And with the cars as racey as they are nowadays, drivers deviate from the racing line more often en uses they’re able to try different moves.

If you don’t like these cars you must have hated everything back to about 1978.

Teams still setup cars for free air racing sometimes. That will overheat stuff. But the main problem is the tire thermals being so finicky.

[cbo]

Cars are getting way to reliable. I said it before. On tracks where you cannot race they should introduce an "Entertainment Car" that is called up randomly somewhere after the first 5 laps and before the last 5. Acts just as a regular SC and lasts two laps.

Nah, just install radio-controlled actuators on the oil plugs of all cars and have an algorithm at FIA randomly unscrew one or two at each race.

Nintendo can sponsor it under the "Mario Kart" brand....

[Spillage]

I do wonder if it suggests F1 cars are getting a bit too easy to drive. It's almost certainly just a fluke, but still... driver's don't seem to make that many mistakes nowdays.

[JimmyClark]

I do wonder if it suggests F1 cars are getting a bit too easy to drive. It's almost certainly just a fluke, but still... driver's don't seem to make that many mistakes nowdays.

We still get quite a lot in practice and qualifying. It's just in races they often have to drive within themselves.

[Ruusperi]

It's because the drivers don't have to push. Force them to do 60 qualifying laps in succession, and mistakes are bound to happen.

Also, have 26 cars.

[RekF1]

These cars and hybrid Engines are just horrible. This season was on of the worst until Miami when FIA made some breaking changes against Redbull

I don't think it's fair to blame the PU. It's all fuel at the end of the day, and I would welcome the return of the KERS button. The mapped battery deployment should be limited (or removed) so that the drivers are more responsible for when they use their energy recovery.

Although, since 2014 there has been a more conservative race craft incentive. The Pirelli tyres and unreliable PU's helped to mask the weakness of both. And now the tyres are reliable and the cars are reliable it's inevitably created some predictably boring racing.

[TomNokoe]

We still get quite a lot in practice and qualifying. It's just in races they often have to drive within themselves.

Precisely!!

 

The only hint of a mistake today was from Norris, who was pushing 1s faster than he needed to trying to build a pit stop gap for FL.

 

I really, really cannot emphasise this any more. The sport has been utterly transformed by Pirelli that I think many have forgotten what a proper grand prix looks like.

Edited by TomNokoe, 22 September 2024 - 19:20.

[w1Y]

So question on my head. Is the reduced.number of safety cars in the race partly due to the cost cap being in the instructions to drivers.

I also suspect that because the cars are so heavy overtakes are mainly due to tyre delta which means we get more simple passes in the braking zone.

Edited by w1Y, 23 September 2024 - 01:15.

[southernstars]

I think it's multiple factors:

 

- The cars are more reliable. No more spectacular engine detonations in a shower of flame and smoke. Things happen occasionally, but for the most part, failures are able to be limped back to the pits (ala Albon overheating last night).

 

- The level of driver ability is much higher. For all the jokes about Zhou and Sargeant and Stroll, the level of in-race driver crashes/incidents causing safety cars from them is quite low. Sargeant, for example, despite his "reputation", was involved in just two safety cars this year: Miami, which was very much not his fault, and Canada, which was in the wet (and there were further safety cars afterwards).

 

- The weather. The last wet race was Silverstone. Singapore was the last realistic chance for a wet race until Brazil, and that in itself is likely to be the only race left on the calendar where we might get a wet one.

 

- The tyres. Your tyres legally cannot degrade without your consent. Memes aside, the tyres do still go off (as we saw in Baku) but the cliff is gone.

 

Honestly, I genuinely think we could make it to Interlagos before we get a safety car.

[1player]

I think it's multiple factors:

- The cars are more reliable. No more spectacular engine detonations in a shower of flame and smoke. Things happen occasionally, but for the most part, failures are able to be limped back to the pits (ala Albon overheating last night).

- The level of driver ability is much higher. For all the jokes about Zhou and Sargeant and Stroll, the level of in-race driver crashes/incidents causing safety cars from them is quite low. Sargeant, for example, despite his "reputation", was involved in just two safety cars this year: Miami, which was very much not his fault, and Canada, which was in the wet (and there were further safety cars afterwards).

- The weather. The last wet race was Silverstone. Singapore was the last realistic chance for a wet race until Brazil, and that in itself is likely to be the only race left on the calendar where we might get a wet one.

- The tyres. Your tyres legally cannot degrade without your consent. Memes aside, the tyres do still go off (as we saw in Baku) but the cliff is gone.

Honestly, I genuinely think we could make it to Interlagos before we get a safety car.

Good point, plus the Virtual Safety Car, that the stewards tend to prefer.

Honestly, I am still unsure what the rationale is between activating the Virtual Safety Car or calling Maylander out.

[BRG]

Good point, plus the Virtual Safety Car, that the stewards tend to prefer.

Honestly, I am still unsure what the rationale is between activating the Virtual Safety Car or calling Maylander out.

Race Director can call a VSC almost instantly and end it almost instantly with far less disruption to the racing.  Waking up Bernd and getting him out in front of the leader takes a lot longer, as does the ending of a SC period.  

[PayasYouRace]

Good point, plus the Virtual Safety Car, that the stewards tend to prefer.

Honestly, I am still unsure what the rationale is between activating the Virtual Safety Car or calling Maylander out.

It’s race control, not the stewards, that make those calls. Though perhaps it makes lighter work for the stewards of it reduces the number of incidents to investigate.

[Beri]

So the 9 races, and counting now, is the longest streak in 20 years of no safety car.
The record stands at 11. Which was first set, eerily enough, after it's appearance in the 1994 San Marino Grand Prix. 11 races later, it appeared at the Japanese Grand Prix.
Then again there was an 11 race streak from Australia 1995 till Hungary 1996. And then once more an 11 race streak from the 1997 Italian Grand Prix till the Grand Prix of Monaco in 1998.

Edited by Beri, 05 October 2024 - 20:59.

[Anderis]

So the 9 races, and counting now, is the longest streak in 20 years of no safety car.
The record stands at 11. Which was first set, eerily enough, after it's appearance in the 1994 San Marino Grand Prix. 11 races later, it appeared at the Japanese Grand Prix.
Then again there was an 11 race streak from Australia 1995 till Hungary 1995. And then once more an 11 race streak from the 1997 Italian Grand Prix till the Grand Prix of Monaco in 1998.

One thing to remember is that the number of incidents that would've been dealt with under yellow flags in the 90's and 00's but would cause a SC/VSC/red flag today must have been huge. Recently watched the finishing laps of Belgian GP in 2008 and I couldn't believe how they just left Raikkonen's car sit there under yellow flags for more than a lap, with some cars still on dry tyres sliding all over the place in the rain. And 2008 was not that long ago.

As you can see, part of his car was even on the track and they just left it there, letting the race continue.

Edited by Anderis, 05 October 2024 - 18:33.

[FirstnameLastname]

So the 9 races, and counting now, is the longest streak in 20 years of no safety car.
The record stands at 11. Which was first set, eerily enough, after it's appearance in the 1994 San Marino Grand Prix. 11 races later, it appeared at the Japanese Grand Prix.
Then again there was an 11 race streak from Australia 1995 till Hungary 1996. And then once more an 11 race streak from the 1997 Italian Grand Prix till the Grand Prix of Monaco in 1998.

So if we can get through another couple of races, they can label this as a ‘record breaking season’

[BRG]

With Logan gone, there is a better chance of getting through races SC-free.

 

Maybe they can save them all up for a Safety Car Festival at Abu Dhabi, which is the spiritual home of safety cars.  Maybe get Masi in as guest driver?

[FirstnameLastname]

With Logan gone, there is a better chance of getting through races SC-free.

Maybe they can save them all up for a Safety Car Festival at Abu Dhabi, which is the spiritual home of safety cars. Maybe get Masi in as guest driver?

And he appears with a few laps to go, windows tinted… puts the window down, and does ‘troll face’ out the window

Like WWF/WWE

[sterlingfan2000]

- Grid too small , we need more Teams

- engine are too reliable

- Pirelli Tyres too durable.

[southernstars]

With Logan gone, there is a better chance of getting through races SC-free.

 

Maybe they can save them all up for a Safety Car Festival at Abu Dhabi, which is the spiritual home of safety cars.  Maybe get Masi in as guest driver?

 

Logan was only part of two safety cars this year, and one of them wasn't even his fault, Magnussen yeeted him to the shadow realm.

 

likewise, he did cause one in Canada, but he was also not the only driver to do so that day, in those conditions.

[Ruusperi]

One thing to remember is that the number of incidents that would've been dealt with under yellow flags in the 90's and 00's but would cause a SC/VSC/red flag today must have been huge.

Indeed. Different eras are not comparable. Prior to Suzuka 2014 you would see marshals crossing the live track to push Sutil's car at Hockenheim in 2014 (couldn't find a YouTube clip) or SUV appearing at the end of breaking point under local yellow (also at Hockenheim in 2014):

 

I thought the habit of leaving stranded cars on the side of the track ended somewhere around 2004, but looks like it still continued till the late 00s. It's a shame Charlie Whiting is no longer with us to do Beyond the Grid podcast. I would like to hear his rationale for many of his past decisions and how his tolerance of risk changed between 1997 and 2019.

Edited by Ruusperi, 06 October 2024 - 12:19.

[southernstars]

I saw a recap of the 2007 race at the Nurburgring the other day and I cringed so hard to see cars aquaplaning and sliding off out of control at turn 1, as a tractor trundled across the gravel to retrieve Hamilton. Liuzzi, IIRC, actually did hit the tractor, but he went in backwards and at low speed so it was really more of a love tap. You have to wonder how that didn't raise alarm bells.

[Beri]

Indeed. Different eras are not comparable. Prior to Suzuka 2014 you would see marshals crossing the live track to push Sutil's car at Hockenheim in 2014 (couldn't find a YouTube clip) or SUV appearing at the end of breaking point under local yellow (also at Hockenheim in 2014):

 
I thought the habit of leaving stranded cars on the side of the track ended somewhere around 2004, but looks like it still continued till the late 00s. It's a shame Charlie Whiting is no longer with us to do Beyond the Grid podcast. I would like to hear his rationale for many of his past decisions and how his tolerance of risk changed between 1997 and 2019.

Double waved yellow flags there. So; significant hazard. Drivers must be ready to stop if necessary.
But since no driver has ever respected this rule, in like ever, this picture alone is toe curling. Had the FIA cracked down on drivers not respecting those rules already from the beginning, all this discussion would have been unnecessary.

[Clatter]

Double waved yellow flags there. So; significant hazard. Drivers must be ready to stop if necessary.
But since no driver has ever respected this rule, in like ever, this picture alone is toe curling. Had the FIA cracked down on drivers not respecting those rules already from the beginning, all this discussion would have been unnecessary.

Define what ready to stop means. The rule should include a speed limit.

[Sterzo]

Double waved yellow flags there. So; significant hazard. Drivers must be ready to stop if necessary.
But since no driver has ever respected this rule, in like ever, this picture alone is toe curling. Had the FIA cracked down on drivers not respecting those rules already from the beginning, all this discussion would have been unnecessary.

I spotted the nonsense of this rule when I was nine years old, at my first race meeting in the nineteen fifties. There it was in the race programme, and so obviously unrelated to reality.

[Ferrim]

One thing to remember is that the number of incidents that would've been dealt with under yellow flags in the 90's and 00's but would cause a SC/VSC/red flag today must have been huge. Recently watched the finishing laps of Belgian GP in 2008 and I couldn't believe how they just left Raikkonen's car sit there under yellow flags for more than a lap, with some cars still on dry tyres sliding all over the place in the rain. And 2008 was not that long ago.
As you can see, part of his car was even on the track and they just left it there, letting the race continue.

This one is from the 2006 Malaysian GP:

Edited by Ferrim, 07 October 2024 - 15:59.

[FLB]

Well, we've got our answer now.

[sportyskells]

Thanks to Lewis for spinning in the gravel trap ending the drought