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Is F1 taking head injuries seriously enough?


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#1 SophieB

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 16:26

This is inspired by, but not limited to Antonelli’s crash yesterday. Hadn’t heard he’d cancelled interviews due to dizziness. My ongoing view is that there isn’t enough saving teams and drivers from themselves when both are desperate for the driver to just get back in the car.

 

@DreHarrison1ø1

The most concerning thing about Antonelli isn’t the pace? It’s the fact the man had a 42G impact, cancelled his media commitments citing dizziness, then got back in an F2 car again to qualify. 

 
We’re still deeply unserious on head injuries in Motorsport.


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#2 FLB

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 16:28

Post-concussion symptoms would explain his F2 race today...  :(



#3 Hellenic tifosi

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 16:35

There is also a very real possibility that he just wanted an excuse to avoid the media.

#4 AustinF1

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 16:37

 

This is inspired by, but not limited to Antonelli’s crash yesterday. Hadn’t heard he’d cancelled interviews due to dizziness. My ongoing view is that there isn’t enough saving teams and drivers from themselves when both are desperate for the driver to just get back in the car.

 

@DreHarrison1ø1

The most concerning thing about Antonelli isn’t the pace? It’s the fact the man had a 42G impact, cancelled his media commitments citing dizziness, then got back in an F2 car again to qualify. 

 
We’re still deeply unserious on head injuries in Motorsport.

 

I think they still aren't serious enough about it in most sports, including F1. In American football, they make a big show of the concussion protocol, but it all smells very much imho like they're just doing lip service to it, covering their asses.



#5 SenorSjon

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 16:42

There is also a very real possibility that he just wanted an excuse to avoid the media.


This is the most logical explanation. Imagine having to tell the world how your 1.8 hotlap went until you binned it.

#6 SophieB

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 16:46

There is also a very real possibility that he just wanted an excuse to avoid the media.

Possibly, but it’s not great if the collective reaction on hearing this news was ‘oh, right, well anyway, hope the concussion symptoms wear off before quali’ rather than ‘wow, how unfortunate that this massive F1 crash will mean you’re clearly not going to be fit to drive in F2 either’.

 

In other words, if it’s an excuse, it’s one you’d only make if you knew you were in a culture where no-one took head injuries seriously.



#7 Hellenic tifosi

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 16:55

Possibly, but it’s not great if the collective reaction on hearing this news was ‘oh, right, well anyway, hope the concussion symptoms wear off before quali’ rather than ‘wow, how unfortunate that this massive F1 crash will mean you’re clearly not going to be fit to drive in F2 either’.

In other words, if it’s an excuse, it’s one you’d only make if you knew you were in a culture where no-one took head injuries seriously.


True.

#8 Disgrace

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 17:02

There is also a very real possibility that he just wanted an excuse to avoid the media.

 

Hmm... Domi Aegerter will testify that this is a risky strategy.

 

Following a Race 1 crash for Dominique Aegerter in the FIM Supersport World Championship on Saturday afternoon, he was declared unfit with suspected concussion, as ruled by the medical team. However, after further medical assessments and an FIM Stewards investigation, clarification needs to be communicated.

 

On Saturday afternoon, Aegerter was rescued on the track and checked by the Chief Medical Officer (CMO) at the Medical Centre was declared unfit due to the presence of possible concussion symptoms. On Saturday evening, Aegerter went to the Hospital for further assessments and on Sunday morning he admitted the simulation of symptoms to the CMO, and after a deep re-check was declared able to ride.

 

Following an FIM Stewards investigation, FIM Stewards ruled that Aegerter acted in an unsporting manner by simulating a medical situation in order to delay the recovery process and thus force a stoppage of the race by red flag. This is something that the 31-year-old Swiss rider admitted to with a supporting statement, submitted medical staff and then to the FIM Stewards. For his unsporting behaviour, he has been given an immediate one race ban, which means he did not take part in Race 2 at Most.

 

After clarifications of yesterday’s behaviour to the Chief Medical Officer of the circuit and the subsequent further medical assessments and examinations that have been made, it is declared that Dominique Aegerter would have been fit to race but did not take part due to the FIM Stewards’ ruling.



#9 Secretariat

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 17:04

There is also a very real possibility that he just wanted an excuse to avoid the media.

True. However, the qualifier for this is "being dizzy". In contact sports (or when you collide at a high G load) this is a euphemism akin to the older generations saying, "I got my bell rung" which often was describing concussive effects.


Edited by Secretariat, 31 August 2024 - 17:05.


#10 loki

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 17:08

After Askew Indycar implemented a tighter protocol.  The Nascar touring series also have a strict protocol.  



#11 ARTGP

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 17:17

I was going to comment about this yesterday. Antonelli's comments about diziness were not good. 


Edited by ARTGP, 31 August 2024 - 17:18.


#12 ensign14

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 17:43

After Askew Indycar implemented a tighter protocol.

Although given Jack Harvey went from exciting talent to poor man's King Hiro after a head injury - and is still in that pretty woeful performance state - suggests it's not tight enough.



#13 ARTGP

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 17:45

There is also a very real possibility that he just wanted an excuse to avoid the media.

 

 

This is the most logical explanation. Imagine having to tell the world how your 1.8 hotlap went until you binned it.

 

It was a 42G impact. He was feeling something and it's not even speculating to believe that. 



#14 frosty125

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 17:54

As someone who has suffered multiple TBI and knows some of what it is like to suffer PCS there is absolutely no way that it is right for him to race.

Anyone with any knowledge of TBI knows that successive TBI especially before the brain has healed can be devastating.

#15 Beri

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 18:19

Sideway impacts are the ones where the driver is protected the least. I think this should be addressed.

#16 loki

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 18:30

Although given Jack Harvey went from exciting talent to poor man's King Hiro after a head injury - and is still in that pretty woeful performance state - suggests it's not tight enough.

There are accelerometers in the radio earpieces that measure and log.  A hit above 80G automatically takes you out of the race and hits under that are judged on a case by case basis.  They need to be cleared by a neurologist that specializes in sports TBI.  It consists of CT scans, EEG and physical evaluation.  If the doc clears them that’s about all one can ask for.   I don’t see how it could be more comprehensive.  



#17 SophieB

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 18:36

There are accelerometers in the radio earpieces that measure and log.  A hit above 80G automatically takes you out of the race and hits under that are judged on a case by case basis.  They need to be cleared by a neurologist that specializes in sports TBI.  It consists of CT scans, EEG and physical evaluation.  If the doc clears them that’s about all one can ask for.   I don’t see how it could be more comprehensive.  

It’s a really frustrating feeling I have sometimes that F1 seems less, not more, inclined to adopt things or policies that other series developed first when we could all be sharing best practices.



#18 Broekschaap

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 18:41

The kid is 18. Should be protected. My old manager always said: if you can't go to the supermarkt and cook yourself a meal we don't need you at work. First get better. Maybe the same priciple could be used for a driver that doesn;t feel up to talking to the press because of dizziness.



#19 AustinF1

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 18:48

It’s a really frustrating feeling I have sometimes that F1 seems less, not more, inclined to adopt things or policies that other series developed first when we could all be sharing best practices.

You are not alone in this thinking. I couldn't agree more.



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#20 pdac

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 20:53

There needs to be a culture of safety. Sadly, the culture is all about racing and safety takes a back seat until they need to explain why something bad happened (usually with the explanation being that nobody could have anticipated it).



#21 Anja

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 21:09

There needs to be a culture of safety. Sadly, the culture is all about racing and safety takes a back seat until they need to explain why something bad happened (usually with the explanation being that nobody could have anticipated it).

 

Motorsport's approach to safety has always been reactive rather than proactive. Which, as bad as it sounds, is ultimately pretty natural for the kind of sport that always has to balance the thin line between "extreme" and "outright dangerous". That being said, in this particular case they really wouldn't lose any "edge" by employing stricter safety standards. 


Edited by Anja, 31 August 2024 - 21:11.


#22 pdac

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 22:11

Motorsport's approach to safety has always been reactive rather than proactive. Which, as bad as it sounds, is ultimately pretty natural for the kind of sport that always has to balance the thin line between "extreme" and "outright dangerous". That being said, in this particular case they really wouldn't lose any "edge" by employing stricter safety standards. 

 

It's exactly because of that balance that they need to be extremely serious about anything that is considered a safety matter. It's exactly because drivers and team personnel would rather take risks then face the prospect of losing out that those in charge need to protect these people from themselves. But, unfortunately, those in charge are also involved in ensuring that a great show is put on, so have a vested interest in sidelining safety for the spectacle.


Edited by pdac, 31 August 2024 - 22:13.


#23 Myrvold

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Posted 31 August 2024 - 23:29

 

This is inspired by, but not limited to Antonelli’s crash yesterday. Hadn’t heard he’d cancelled interviews due to dizziness. My ongoing view is that there isn’t enough saving teams and drivers from themselves when both are desperate for the driver to just get back in the car.

 

@DreHarrison1ø1

The most concerning thing about Antonelli isn’t the pace? It’s the fact the man had a 42G impact, cancelled his media commitments citing dizziness, then got back in an F2 car again to qualify. 

 
We’re still deeply unserious on head injuries in Motorsport.

 

 

To answer the question of the thread. The answer is a solid no.

 

As someone who has suffered multiple TBI and knows some of what it is like to suffer PCS there is absolutely no way that it is right for him to race.

Anyone with any knowledge of TBI knows that successive TBI especially before the brain has healed can be devastating.

 

While my TBI was more than a concussion, it obviously was a concussion, but it was also a broken skull, brain hemorrhage. To later learn that it "was good that you cracked you skull as then we didn't have to drill a hole to relieve the pressure from the bleed" was... interesting.

 

Regardless, this was in September on my way to school, I had just come off a my best ever karting-results the day before, 2nd in the unofficial junior championship in my country (not official due to rules about official championships for youth in all sports here), and obviously wanted to get back ASAP.
I spent a week at the hospital, they wanted to keep me for another week, but with an aunt who worked at the hospital as a nurse, and she, together with the doc giving me and my parents extremely strict rules of what I could do (not what I couldn't do, as the list of what I could do, meant anything outside that list was strictly not allowed). In reality the only difference being at home was that I was home and could lie in other places. I was not allowed to do anything other that eat, drink, walk around at home and sit/lie down. At the end of the 2nd week, I was allowed to read comics, as there were more pictures than text, so it didn't "wear" on my brain.

It took me over 2 weeks to be allowed to watch 1hr of TV each day, and it took me until late Jan/early Feb before I was allowed to do PE at school, but then, only running and "alone physicals".
I was allowed to step back in a kart in April the next year. It took over 6 months from the accident until I was allowed to do any laps again. I felt totally fine in November already, just some issues with speech as that's where the brain bleed was, so I had aphasia when I was at hospital. While the brain healed as much as it could, I have scarring and scar-tissue on my brain, which does mean I have a lasting brain injury. Regardless, even though I felt fine, it took a bit over 4 months from I felt fine until I got the clear from the different docs. Well, I got a "We cannot recommend it, but you are now allowed to if you want", and a "The brain often heals well from the first injury, if you get a new injury it much less chance of a recovery".

Over two years later I had my last tests to check for lasting damage, and apparently have some damage that will impact, to some degree, the speech, short-term memory and fine motorics on the right side of my body.

I did go back to karting, got another 2nd place almost on the date, 1 year after my accident (the weekend before), but money fizzled out and that was my career. Did some RX later, and have tried to do one race a year the last 7-8 years in some form, usually a 6hr race. However, there are times where I get aware that it is extra risky in case of an accident. I don't have that danger when being in race control, or a steward, scrutineer or similar. But that doesn't give me that calmness inside either.

 

But.. there should be extremely strict protocols for head injuries, and they should strive to have an as neutral part as possible do it. As the teams don't want to be a car down, or find a very late replacement, and the FOM & FIA don't want to lose a name like Hamilton or Verstappen, and shouldn't be able to have any impact on the decision.



#24 kumo7

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Posted 01 September 2024 - 01:25

yup, I think Formula One can take head injury much more serious.

One of the answer will be to judge not only drivers skill by the license status, especially of a young driver, but to see the strength of the neck by inventing serious tests before he even get into a Formula One car.

It’s quite clear if he suffers his head injury it will be a long-term issue so the team must be ready and clear and be prepared for arguments for such case so it is for Team‘s interest as well.

And I think this will go down to formula 2, formula three and so forth.

#25 BRG

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Posted 01 September 2024 - 09:16

I think  F1 relied on Pref. Sid Watkins so much and for so long, that it hasn't adapted to his departure.  Back in his time, if Prof Sid told you that you weren't racing anymore after a crash, that was the end of your weekend.  Nobody argued with him, he was universally respected.  But who do they have now with the same authority?   In the absence of such a figure (and it is probably impossible to find another Sid) they need some strict protocols that are  well understood and respected.  

 

This has become an issue recently  in pro-cycling where riders who have crashed hard get a roadside check for concussion from the race doctor before they are allowed to remount and continue.  But that still seems pretty inadequate.



#26 Myrvold

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Posted 03 September 2024 - 00:27

x-post from the F1 Silly Season thread about a non-clearing concussion that ended Alguersuari's FE and thus racing career: https://forums.autos...4#entry10712022