38 replies to this topic

[mariner]

This should , maybe , be in racing comments but it is worth saying that yesterday was Ferrari's 20th GP win at Monza.

 

With so many F1 races today the victory celebrations can seem a bit anodyne or forced by PR machines. Wth no local drivers or teams to get passionate aboutt that is understandable.

 

But Monza is totally,gloriously different. The Tifosi just go mad in delight and the picture from behind the elveated victory rostrum over the track showing a sea of Ferrari fans all in red shows that passion still runs strong in motor racing 

 

picture copyright BBC 

 

Edited by mariner, 02 September 2024 - 08:33.

[Alan Baker]

Only of you ignore 1949 and the Scuderia Ferrari Alfas in the thirties.

[FastReader]

I was at Monza for the 1979 Grand Prix when Jody Scheckter and Gilles Villeneuve finished 1-2 with Scheckter winning the World Championship that day. I've never experienced anything else quite like it. The tifosi behaved as if it they were witnessing the 2nd Coming. It was quite astonishing and marvellous to watch; I felt privileged to be there. And for the icing on the cake, another tifosi hero, Clay Reggazoni finished third. Happy days.

[BRG]

20 Ferrari wins from 74 Monza GPs in the F1 WC era.  If one was of a suspicious turn of mind, one might wonder a little about that. 

 

But then their oft-times arch rivals McLaren have won 11 times (should have been 12 but for the wretched Aussie screwing it up for them yesterday) and a total of 21 constructors have taken victory there with Red Bull surprisingly only managing a paltry 4 wins.  Although, courtesy of Toro Rosso, Ferrari ENGINES have won 21 times.

[FastReader]

20 Ferrari wins from 74 Monza GPs in the F1 WC era.  If one was of a suspicious turn of mind, one might wonder a little about that. 

 

But then their oft-times arch rivals McLaren have won 11 times (should have been 12 but for the wretched Aussie screwing it up for them yesterday) and a total of 21 constructors have taken victory there with Red Bull surprisingly only managing a paltry 4 wins.  Although, courtesy of Toro Rosso, Ferrari ENGINES have won 21 times.

If it hadn't been for Jean-Louis Schlesser at the 1988 Italian Grand Prix, it would be Ferrari 19, McLaren 12.

[Tim Murray]

Ferrari as a constructor now has 21 wins in the Italian GP. You can’t ignore 1949 just because there was no world championship then.

[BRG]

Ferrari as a constructor now has 21 wins in the Italian GP. You can’t ignore 1949 just because there was no world championship then.

I can, you know.  But if you insist, then we must add two more wins to Alfa's total and with Maserati and Toro Rosso/Alpha Tauri that gives a suspicious 28 Italian victories at Monza.

 

And yet just 4 home wins for Italian drivers.  As opposed to 30 home wins for British drivers at the British GP.  Makes you think, doesn't it?

[sabrejet]

Awesome that a privateer team can still win. I'm sure many will say it's not quite the same as the JOTA win at Spa however.

 

Truly a golden era: congrats to all at AF Corse.

[Doug Nye]

Numbers, schnumbers...as Tim points out above.  In fact the tifosi at Monza react just as positively to Ferrari wins in sports and GT racing there.  Effonecentricity often overlooks too much...  The converse is also telling, when the tifosi either leave early or studiously find something else to fill their time.

 

The most delicious Ferrari defeat I recall there was really Roy Salvadori's Aston Martin victory over the GTOs - backed up by team-mate Lucien Bianchi, third - in the 1963 Coppa Inter-Europa 3-Hour race.  However, the 1973 1,000Kms race was pretty heady for the tifosi, with the Ferrari 312PBs first and second.  The big thing with Monza is just that feeling of being present within that cathedral of speed - to so many of us the spiritual home of world-class motor racing.  The first time I drove round the autodrome was simply electrifying - trying to follow in the wheel tracks of so many heroes.  Its history was palpable. Stirring the blood.

 

DCN

[Gary C]

Within my tenure with FOM I worked on five Italian GPS. I think it was either 1997 or 1998 and I along with two other bodies were picked to de-rig our TV cameras around the circuit. We tried to do a little straight after the race but it was impossible because of the crowd on the track so were repaired to the nearest pizza joint and got stuck into the red while we waited. Come Monday morning we were back at the circuit, we needed to get as much done as we were scheduled to fly home at about 2pm on the Tuesday. We managed to get everything done by around 11am on Tuesday. Now, for this race I happened to be the designated hire car driver that week. As we had a a little time before we left I suggested driving a lap of the circuit and then get on the motorway to the airport, this we did. Now obviously, thete other people not connected to us doing the same sort of job; taking down tents the circuit advets, signage etc. All was going really well intol we came to the second Lesmo, which I took really nicely, hardly lifting...except. Coming out of the corner I was confronting with a massive articulated truck and trailer right in the middle of the track. I had to make a very quick decision whether to go left or right of it, right there were guys working, left was to go across the rumble strips and onto the grass, which we did!
We then made straight for the exit pronto and out on to the auto strade. As Doug says, the place, even more has a real ambience to it. Forza Monza!

[DCapps]

There was a Void prior to 1950, then, Behold! Formula 1! And, the F1 World Championship! And, History was Created!

 

What a bunch of hooey... (spelled Bravo Uniform Lima Lima Sierra Hotel India Tango).

[E1pix]

I was at Monza for the 1979 Grand Prix when Jody Scheckter and Gilles Villeneuve finished 1-2 with Scheckter winning the World Championship that day. I've never experienced anything else quite like it. The tifosi behaved as if it they were witnessing the 2nd Coming. It was quite astonishing and marvellous to watch; I felt privileged to be there. And for the icing on the cake, another tifosi hero, Clay Reggazoni finished third. Happy days.

This is one awesome post.

[D28]

I can, you know.  But if you insist, then we must add two more wins to Alfa's total and with Maserati and Toro Rosso/Alpha Tauri that gives a suspicious 28 Italian victories at Monza.

 

And yet just 4 home wins for Italian drivers.  As opposed to 30 home wins for British drivers at the British GP.  Makes you think, doesn't it?

Italians in 1952 could be complacent, as local drivers had won 3 WC Monza races in a row, 4 if Ascari's pre- WC win is counted. Few would have dreamed that 14 years would pass before Scarfiotti repeated. 58 years later and still waiting would be unthinkable. They have had to be content with winners of Italian heritage, Andretti obviously, and others like Fangio, Fittipaldi and Regazzoni.

[john aston]

It's become fashionable to knock Ferrari,  but I love 'em . They epitomise everything I love about both motor racing and Italy. I have never  been to Monza but even on TV the drama and sheer theatre is palpable . F1 has - ugh - "fans"  no but almost invariably they support a driver and not a team. In the UK it started with Hunt and degenerated to rampant xenophobia with some of Mansell's more rabid followers .Now it's Lando-mania 

 

But the tifosi are different - thy predate modern fandom by decades and they support a  team,  not a driver.  The identity and nationality of a Ferrari driver is immaterial . If Jacob Rees- Mogg stuck a Ferrari on pole at Monza (come on, he's looking for a change of career) he'd never need to buy a drink in Italy again . 

 

I got a taste of tifosi  world when  I went to the San Marino GP in 1987. They were Incredibly friendly , and there were roars of approval every time a red car went by . And the headline of the paper the day after the race ? Not 'Mansell wins ' but 'Rosso sul Podio ' for Alboreto 's third place .

 

And yes , McLaren  have done very well at Monza,. But remind me how often they were using their own engine ? 

[Jack-the-Lad]

Nothing beats the drama of 1988.  There’s probably a thread about it here somewhere. 
 

A friend jokingly told me he’d heard that Enzo had  asked God to do that.  I said no, Enzo told God to do that.

 

Edited by Jack-the-Lad, 02 September 2024 - 15:34.

[DCapps]

I was at Monza for the GP d'Italia 1954-56, 1958-60.

Two years the tifosi were excited (machina rosso, close enough...) and really raging one of those years, the other years, meh, whatever...

I did cross paths for a brief time with OMF in 1959.

My main problem with Ferrari generally has been its fanatics and not so much Ferrari...although there have been times when it has let its mythology carry the team away from its reality.

[Ray Bell]

And I only saw the tifosi go mad at Monaco...

 

When Gilles Villeneuve had that miracle win in 1981. They come alive there too, just a few miles from the Italian border.

[LOTI]

1967 I was lurking in the pits taking some pictures never having seen the tifosi in force before. I took a picture of the grandstand..... some years later I met a tifosi who had a photograph of me taking a photograph of him in the grandstand..... weird or what?

When I broke my leg, earlier that day I was in the middle of a conversation with a tifosi, Lying in a heap in hospital and after visiting hours, a gentleman walked in, in Ferrari kit from head to foot with a huge bunch of red roses. the nurse on duty said that visiting hours were over and anyway flowers were not allowed to which he just shrugged and dumped the roses on the end of my bed...... you have to love them!

I went to Maranello for my 60th birthday, my daughter and her boyfriend came too. I said I would like to go to the museum in the morning and then to the Montana restaurant in the evening. I woke up to a message that I was expected on the factory tour at lunch time [which you know is just for people buying cars, which I wasn't] Heaven..... at supper they presented me with a huge birthday cake, which got shared with the whole restaurant.

Fast forward to Peter Gethin's funeral and a Ferrari clad lady asked me how I was..... she said that Peter [who had worked for Ferrari] heard from my brother what I was up to. He told them I was dying and this was top of my bucket list. [which it was!] what a sweet lying thing to do.

Forza Ferrari! Forza Charles and Carlos!

Loti

[Doug Nye]

That is just lovely, Loti.

 

Perhaps, Don, your distaste for "Ferrari fanatics" really involves a very different type of marque-enthusiast from those tifosi reared to the mindset, within Italy?  

 

I always remember the day we were waiting for the start, I think in '69, on top of the main grandstand roof - special 'photo' passes wangled from the press office - when there was a grunting and gasping behind us...and a couple of dark-tanned, very hairy, 'Monza Gorilla'-type tifosi heaved themselves into sight, having climbed up an enormous tree just there, swarmed out along a near-the-limit bough, and dropped themselves down onto the roof with us...bringing a Ferrari banner with them.

 

If I've got the year right - and I think I have - that is what a great view of their team means to a true tifoso. How many Ferraris started the '69 GP?  Just one - taken over by Pedro Rodriguez during practice, from poor aced-out Tino Brambilla. Pedro brought that dog of a car home sixth, twice-lapped. The true tifosi roared him home...

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 02 September 2024 - 18:49.

[opplock]

And I only saw the tifosi go mad at Monaco...

 

When Gilles Villeneuve had that miracle win in 1981. They come alive there too, just a few miles from the Italian border.

 

Apart from those who left the K stands before Alan Jones hit trouble. They must have been REALLY REALLY p'ed off when they heard the result. 

 

I was near the top of stand K2 Saturday and Sunday. A fantastic weekend. An unexpected bonus was seeing Gilles about 30 minutes after the finish, albeit dwarfed by his police escort.   

[Nick Planas]

If Jacob Rees- Mogg stuck a Ferrari on pole at Monza (come on, he's looking for a change of career) he'd never need to buy a drink in Italy again . 

 

That has just conjured up the most comical image(s) in my head. I also reckon my comedian friend could string out a lot of new material on that thought alone.

 

Can you imagine the interviews...

[DCapps]

 

Perhaps, Don, your distaste for "Ferrari fanatics" really involves a very different type of marque-enthusiast from those tifosi reared to the mindset, within Italy?  

 

 

DCN

 

FORZA MASERATI!!!!!!

 

Yes, there was a small question of "preferences" that schoolboys tend to have that perhaps played a role as well.

 

I have often thought that some of the effort put into books/articles on Ferrari might have been better spent on other marques/topics and better for the sport.

I really have soft spots for the 246/256 Dinos (Mike Hawthorn and Phil Hill made a lot to do with that, of course) and the 250LMs for instance, as well as the 312Bs. 

 

I have always been more of the cerebral sort when it comes to sports I suppose.

 

While I think that the few American here will understand, but there is little in sport that will outdo being a Chicago Cubs fan, which I have been since at least 1954.

We KNOW the price of loyalty, the suffering that one endures season after season after season after season in the hope that Maybe This Is the Year...

[FastReader]

A little bit more context for my 1979 Monza experience: I was 17 and had spent the previous ten days or so travelling Italy on a Transalpino (remember them anybody?) ticket with a friend (a girlfriend but not a girlfriend if you see what I mean) to whom I had made a foolish promise that the trip would not involve any motor racing. As the days passed I realised that I couldn't possibly miss the opportunity of witnessing the Italian Grand Prix so started to go to work convincing my friend that she couldn't possibly miss this opportunity either. Eventually she succumbed but only on the basis that I would pay for her ticket. Big problem because I was running out of money. Anyway, come Saturday 8th September, she decided to spend the afternoon relaxing in the campsite while I went to watch practice and found the solution to my problem: a neatly cut hole in the fence which the tifosi were using as a means of entering the circuit. However, by the following morning a carabinieri was guarding my hole in the fence. No problem though as a short distance further on a tifoso was busy cutting another hole with a set of bolt cutters...

The rest of that heavenly day was spent on the inside of the track on the exit of Parabolica onto the start/finish straight. One particular highlight was Niki Lauda pausing the Brabham-Alfa in front of us at the end of the warm-up lap, raising the engine revs to a scream and then dropping the clutch to do a practice start which was greeted with enthusiastic approval around us. And then at the end of the race, bedlam like you've never seen at a race track, followed by the long journey home to Blighty, tired but very, very happy.

[JacnGille]

 

But then their oft-times arch rivals McLaren have won 11 times (should have been 12 but for the wretched Aussie screwing it up for them yesterday) and a total of 21 constructors have taken victory there with Red Bull surprisingly only managing a paltry 4 wins.  Although, courtesy of Toro Rosso, Ferrari ENGINES have won 21 times.

Should have been 13. Yesterday and God's intervention in 1988.

[AJCee]

Should have been 13. Yesterday and God's intervention in 1988.

And ‘the fuel pixies’ in 1976? 😉

[FastReader]

Should have been 13. Yesterday and God's intervention in 1988.

Jean-Louis Schlesser = God?!!?

[Doug Nye]

Merely a tool deployed by same.  At least that was the implement name used by one leading member of the McLaren team to describe M. Schlesser, without mentioning any divine manipulation of same...  

 

DCN. 

Edited by Doug Nye, 04 September 2024 - 06:54.

[john aston]

Cheeky devil - it wasn't Schlesser who was the naughty boy at Monza but the man who thought he was on a divine mission. 

[opplock]

Cheeky devil - it wasn't Schlesser who was the naughty boy at Monza but the man who thought he was on a divine mission. 

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one to have reached that conclusion all those years ago. 

[Gabrci]

Senna could certainly have done more to avoid it but Schlesser was really clumsy and silly there to be fair. If nothing had happened it would have been a nice story for Jo Schlesser's nephew to get a Grand Prix start at 40 but in reality he had absolutely no business sitting in an F1 car. 

[Sterzo]

Senna could certainly have done more to avoid it but Schlesser was really clumsy and silly there to be fair. If nothing had happened it would have been a nice story for Jo Schlesser's nephew to get a Grand Prix start at 40 but in reality he had absolutely no business sitting in an F1 car. 

He outqualified twelve people to get into that race. He was, in an absolutely literal sense, qualified to be there.

[AJCee]

And several of those qualified behind him never won Le Mans or a World Sportscar title.

[Bordino]

And several of those qualified behind him never won Le Mans or a World Sportscar title.

Jean-Louis never won Le Mans, which he hated, notably when the Mulsanne straight was ... straight.

[AJCee]

Oops, fair enough.

Edit: not many of those who qualified behind him have been second at Le Mans.

[FLB]

Oops, fair enough.

Edit: not many of those who qualified behind him have been second at Le Mans.

He did win the title in 1989 and 1990, though.

 

And was Williams's test driver in 1988, much like Damon Hill and David Coulthard later became.

[FastReader]

He's still not God though.

[DCapps]

I thought God wanted to be A.J. Foyt...

[ReWind]

Major international race wins at Monza powered by Ferrari

 

1949, Jun 26: Gran Premio dell’Autodromo di Monza (F2)

Juan Manuel Fangio (Arg,38) Ferrari 166C V12 2.0

 

1949, Sep 11: Gran Premio d’Italia (F1)

Alberto Ascari (Ita,31) Ferrari 125F1/49 V12 1.5C

 

1950, May 28: Gran Premio dell’Autodromo di Monza (F2)

Luigi Villoresi (Ita,41) Ferrari 166F2/50 V12 2.0

 

1951, Apr 15: Coppa Inter-Europa (GT)

Luigi Villoresi (Ita,41) Ferrari 212MM V12 2.6

 

1951, May 13: Gran Premio dell’Autodromo di Monza (F2)

Alberto Ascari (Ita,32) Ferrari166F2/50 V12 2.0

 

1951, Sep 16: Gran Premio d’Italia (F1)

Alberto Ascari (Ita,33) Ferrari 375F1 V12 4.5

 

1952, Jun 08: Gran Premio dell’Autodromo di Monza (F2)

Giuseppe Farina (Ita,45) Ferrari 500F2 L4 2.0

 

1952, Sep 07: Coppa Inter-Europa (GT)

Bruno Sterzi (Ita,30) Ferrari 225S V12 2.7

1952, Sep 07: Gran Premio d’Italia (F2)

Alberto Ascari (Ita,34) Ferrari 500F2 L4 2.0

 

1953, Jun 29: Gran Premio dell’Autodromo di Monza (GT)

Luigi Villoresi (Ita,44) Ferrari 250MM Berlinetta V12 3.0

 

1954, Jun 27: Gran Premio Supercortemaggiore (Sp)

Mike Hawthorn (Eng,25) & Umberto Maglioli (Ita,26) Ferrari 735S L4 2.9

 

1956, Jun 24: Gran Premio Supercortemaggiore (Sp)

Mike Hawthorn (Eng,27) & Peter Collins (Eng,24) Ferrari 500TR L4 2.0

 

1958, Sep 07: Coppa Inter-Europa (GT)

Luigi Taramazzo (Ita,26) Ferrari 250GT V12 3.0

 

1959, Sep 12: Coppa Inter-Europa (GT)

Alfonso Thiele (USA,39) Ferrari 250GT V12 3.0

 

1960, Sep 04: Coppa Inter-Europa (GT)

Carlo Abate (Ita,28) Ferrari 250GT SWB V12 3.0

1960, Sep 04: Gran Premio d’Italia (F1)

Phil Hill (USA,33) Ferrari 246 V6 2.4

 

1961, Sep 10: Coppa Inter-Europa (GT)

Pierre Noblet (Fra,39) Ferrari 250GT SWB V12 3.0

1961, Sep 10: Gran Premio d’Italia (F1)

Phil Hill (USA,34) Ferrari 156 V6 1.5

 

1964, Sep 06: Gran Premio d’Italia (F1)

John Surtees (Eng,30) Ferrari 158 V8 1.5

 

1965, Apr 25: 1000 km di Monza (Sp)

Jean Guichet (Fra,37) & Mike Parkes (Eng,33) Ferrari 275P2 V12 3.3

 

1966, Apr 25: 1000 km di Monza (Sp)

John Surtees (Eng,32) & Mike Parkes (Eng,34) Ferrari 330P3 V12 4.0

 

1966, Sep 04: Gran Premio d’Italia (F1)

Lodovico Scarfiotti (Ita,32) Ferrari 312 V12 3.0

 

1967, Apr 25: 1000 km di Monza (Sp)

Lorenzo Bandini (Ita,31) & Chris Amon (NZl,23) Ferrari 330P4 V12 4.0

 

1970, Sep 06: Gran Premio d’Italia (F1)

Clay Regazzoni (Sui,31) Ferrari 312B B12 3.0

 

1972, Apr 25: 1000 km di Monza (Sp)

Jacky Ickx (Bel,27) & Clay Regazzoni (Sui,32) Ferrari 312PB B12 3.0

 

1973, Apr 25: 1000 km di Monza (Sp)

Jacky Ickx (Bel,28) & Brian Redman (Eng,36) Ferrari 312PB B12 3.0

 

1975, Sep 07: Gran Premio d’Italia (F1)

Clay Regazzoni (Sui,36) Ferrari 312T B12 3.0

 

1979, Sep 09: Gran Premio d’Italia (F1)

Jody Scheckter (SAf,29) Ferrari 312T4 B12 3.0

 

1988, Sep 11: Gran Premio d’Italia (F1)

Gerhard Berger (Aut,29) Ferrari F1-87/88C V6 1.5T

 

1996, Sep 08: Gran Premio d’Italia (F1)

Michael Schumacher (Ger,27) Ferrari F310 V10 3.0

 

1998, Sep 13: Gran Premio d’Italia (F1)

Michael Schumacher (Ger,29) Ferrari F300 V10 3.0

 

1999, Apr 11: 500 km di Monza (Sp)

Emmanuel Collard (Fra,28) & Vincenzo Sospiri (Ita,32) Ferrari 333SP V12 4.0

 

2000, Sep 10: Gran Premio d’Italia (F1)

Michael Schumacher (Ger,31) Ferrari F1-2000 V10 3.0

 

2002, Sep 15: Gran Premio d’Italia (F1)

Rubens Barrichello (Bra,30) Ferrari F2002 V10 3.0

 

2004, Sep 12: Gran Premio d’Italia (F1)

Rubens Barrichello (Bra,32) Ferrari F2004 V10 3.0

 

2006, Sep 10: Gran Premio d’Italia (F1)

Michael Schumacher (Ger,37) Ferrari 248F1 V8 2.4

 

2008, Sep 14: Gran Premio d’Italia (F1)

Sebastian Vettel (Ger,21) Toro Rosso STR3-Ferrari V8 2.4

 

2010, Sep 12: Gran Premio d’Italia (F1)

Fernando Alonso (Esp,29) Ferrari F10 V8 2.4

 

2019, Sep 08: Gran Premio d’Italia (F1)

Charles Leclerc (Mnc,21) Ferrari SF90 V6H 1.6T

 

2024, Sep 01: Gran Premio d’Italia (F1)

Charles Leclerc (Mnc,26) Ferrari SF-24 V6H 1.6T

 

[2Bob]

Great thread - I really enjoyed it but just a little request.  Please tille things like this, eg recent results, without including a hint of winner. Maybe add 'spoiler alert' to the title, instead eg "Monza result spoiler alert" so that some of us who can't get to see the tv until sometime later (1 day in my case) don't have the suspense made a little unsuspenseful.  Thanks.