768 replies to this topic

[Yoshi]

I saw a video on X during the weekend (has been deleted in the meantime ) from the Mclaren front wing, the flex is quite big.

[jonklug]

I mean, yea. 2021

https://racingnews36...r-flexing-wings

 

 

Formula 1's latest technical directive, issued to the teams on Tuesday, is aimed at closing off any grey areas regarding the flexibility of the rear wings. This comes just a few days after Mercedes' Lewis Hamilton made constant references to the 'bendy' rear wing of the Red Bull RB16B, claiming the team were getting a 0.3 second advantage from the flex.

[SenorSjon]

And yet the front wings of Mercedes were bendy as hell in 2021, yet nothing was done about it.

[AlexPrime]

The cinic in me believes FIA will wait for the WDC to close and then ban Macca wings. Kinda like in 2003 with the Michelin tyres. 

[jonklug]

The cinic in me believes FIA will wait for the WDC to close and then ban Macca wings. Kinda like in 2003 with the Michelin tyres. 

 

The ultra cinic in me believes the FIA will ban them right before next season starts, elevating Ferrari just as they get their new driver line-up going - and screwing McLaren and Mercedes. Having Hamilton fight for the title straight as he joins Ferrari sounds tasty. 

[AlexPrime]

The ultra cinic in me believes the FIA will ban them right before next season starts, elevating Ferrari just as they get their new driver line-up going - and screwing McLaren and Mercedes. Having Hamilton fight for the title straight as he joins Ferrari sounds tasty. 

yup, also looks plausible, but I hope Charles benefits from this 

[jonklug]

Would still be advantage Verstappen in that scenario seeing as Ferrari would have no  #1 and #2. Of course granted RedBull can get their act together which doesn't feel like a given nowadays. Considering 2026 is a lottery and Ferrari can easily screw up the regulation (as has happened in the past), 2025 might be the only chance for a Hamilton Ferrari WDC. If they indeed do this it will be a bit transparent but I don't think people will care. Leclerc vs Hamilton vs Verstappen for the WDC is instant cinema.

[mclara]

And yet the front wings of Mercedes were bendy as hell in 2021, yet nothing was done about it.

just like RB got away with bending wings back in the days. What goes around… 

[Laptom]

just like RB got away with bending wings back in the days. What goes around… 

 

Or Merc in 2021.

They do it all. 

For RB before, the wing was within specification and test limits, but they changed the specification and test to make sure the RB wing was not usable anymore.

Didn't FIA changed the wing rules midway 2017 (or 2018?) season to do the oposite; accomondate the bending front wing of Merc which was out of spec?

Edited by Laptom, 03 September 2024 - 09:47.

[SenorSjon]

just like RB got away with bending wings back in the days. What goes around… 

 

2021

Mercedes wanted stronger rear wing test, got their way. 4-5 teams had to change their rear wings.

Mercedes wanted slower pitstops, got their way

Red Bull wanted the front wings adressed like their rear wing had been, crickets.

[jonklug]

They've issued a clarification, as expected nothing will get changed for this year I don't think:

 

 

“The FIA is examining front wings at every event with numerous checks (conformity of surfaces, conformity of deflections) with respect to the relevant F1 Technical Regulation,” read the statement.

 

“All front wings are currently compliant with the 2024 regulations.

 

“Since the Belgium Grand Prix, the FIA has acquired additional data during FP1 and FP2 sessions to assess dynamic behaviours through an FIA-mandated video camera which captures areas of the front wing that are not visible through the official FOM cameras.

 

“This exercise will continue at least up until Singapore to ensure every team will have been running the mandated FIA camera on different types of tracks (low, medium, high, and very high downforce).

 

“This will ensure a large database allowing the FIA to draw the most objective picture of the situation and quantify differences between the various dynamic patterns observed on track.”

 

The governing body also explained that the current static load tests which check the levels of flexibility might need to be tweaked for 2025 and admitted monitoring the front wings in a uniform fashion has been a challenge.

 

“No component is infinitely stiff, which is the reason why there are load-deflection tests in the Regulations,” the statement continued.

 

“The front wing has been a challenging area throughout the years, because the aerodynamic loading patterns between different competitors varies and it is therefore difficult to find a load vector which will cover all types of front wing construction.

 

“Other areas of the car – including rear wing and floor edges – have much more consistent aerodynamic loading patterns across the grid, making for a more universal load-deflection test.

 

“The FIA has the right to introduce new tests if irregularities are suspected. There are no plans for any short-term measures, but we are evaluating the situation with the medium and long-term in mind.”

[mclara]

2021

Mercedes wanted stronger rear wing test, got their way. 4-5 teams had to change their rear wings.

Mercedes wanted slower pitstops, got their way

Red Bull wanted the front wings adressed like their rear wing had been, crickets.

Thank you for the recap..

FIA have already made clarifications and introduced new techniques to monitor the front wing so RB doesnt have much to complain about if we look at the history. Either the wings are legal or not

[ARTGP]

Thank you for the recap..

FIA have already made clarifications and introduced new techniques to monitor the front wing so RB doesnt have much to complain about if we look at the history. Either the wings are legal or not

 

 

From post 2948: https://forums.autos...9#entry10712671

 

It says that there haven't been any clarifications or changes to testing procedures and that they are still taking time to research the issue:

 

 

“This exercise will continue at least up until Singapore to ensure every team will have been running the mandated FIA camera on different types of tracks (low, medium, high, and very high downforce).

 

“This will ensure a large database allowing the FIA to draw the most objective picture of the situation and quantify differences between the various dynamic patterns observed on track.”
 

The governing body also explained that the current static load tests which check the levels of flexibility might need to be tweaked for 2025 and admitted monitoring the front wings in a uniform fashion has been a challenge.

“The front wing has been a challenging area throughout the years, because the aerodynamic loading patterns between different competitors varies and it is therefore difficult to find a load vector which will cover all types of front wing construction.

“The FIA has the right to introduce new tests if irregularities are suspected. There are no plans for any short-term measures, but we are evaluating the situation with the medium and long-term in mind.”

Edited by ARTGP, 03 September 2024 - 14:23.

[Yoshi]

Clips are on X again

https://x.com/JoaoCa...lnEgcJuJ_g&s=19
https://x.com/JoaoCa...G3PjOhb_Iw&s=19

[lewislorenzo]

2021
Mercedes wanted stronger rear wing test, got their way. 4-5 teams had to change their rear wings.
Mercedes wanted slower pitstops, got their way
Red Bull wanted the front wings adressed like their rear wing had been, crickets.

In the words of CH from 2022 sort out your car😂

[mclara]

From post 2948: https://forums.autos...9#entry10712671

 

It says that there haven't been any clarifications or changes to testing procedures and that they are still taking time to research the issue:

FIA has made it clear that no team is in breach of the regulations.

They have also made provisions to monitor any front wings whenever needed. Teams would be stupid to exploit this if they could get randomly monitored and later found out.

 

This is more than they did back when RB's wings were flexing. As anybody could see on live coverage.

Horner was content with the wings of Mercedes and Mclaren in Spa but I guess since they have fallen even further back its an issue again. Just like he reacted on the zero sidepods of the Mercedes until he found out they were slow

[Yoshi]

It will be banned once other teams are exploiting it as well.
The statement from today is just weak and classic FIA.

Edited by Yoshi, 03 September 2024 - 19:27.

[jwill189]

I saw a video on X during the weekend (has been deleted in the meantime ) from the Mclaren front wing, the flex is quite big.

 

I don't think the Aston Martin front wing from last year flexed a quarter what the McLaren's did and it was banned.

[MikeTekRacing]

nothing new, all teams go through this, they get away with stuff that shouldn't be possible (we see it on the video), or the FiA makes stupid claims like stuff can't flex at all (unenforceable).

Sometimes stuff gets amended and they move on.

 

All front runner teams do this, and always the other ones cry foul (by rotation). Nothing new here too

[JL14]

And here I was waiting on Brown making a comment in the sense of "Horner better worries about the stuff they had to take off their car instead of trying to get legal parts taken off other cars".

(Feel like this was an opportunity to get some clarity on whether Red Bull has been asked to remove certain things or not.)

[pup]

I don't think the Aston Martin front wing from last year flexed a quarter what the McLaren's did and it was banned.

It was banned though because of how it flexed, not by how much.  Their design was circumventing the tests.  

[ClubmanGT]

It was banned though because of how it flexed, not by how much.  Their design was circumventing the tests.  

 

This in theory applies to any design visibly flexing yet passing the tests. 

[pup]

This in theory applies to any design visibly flexing yet passing the tests. 

Not really - as I understood it at least, the AM had a device that would hold the wing within the flex limit while the car was stationary, but would disengage when in motion.  Something about the wing rotating back while in motion so that it was no longer held by the support.  

Edited by pup, 03 September 2024 - 22:04.

[sterlingfan2000]

I think FIA will act on 2025, they probably don't want to in 2024.

FIA really needs to get rid of this flexing Issue this time. It's enough years , when u change the Rule possible in 2025, do it in a extreme way, which would make it impossible to flex

[RekF1]

I'm oofining like I've never oofed.

[ClubmanGT]

Simple. Make it an unappealable penalty, like a kerb strike. A sensor on the wing that picks it up moving out of alignment from the reference plane under load, and once it exceeds a threshold, the sanctions are automatically notified.

 

Those nice little splits in the wing that everyone seems to have would be a real handy place to put it. 

Watch those wings stop flexing real quick.  

[Brian60]

Clips are on X again

https://x.com/JoaoCa...lnEgcJuJ_g&s=19
https://x.com/JoaoCa...G3PjOhb_Iw&s=19

Interesting that it only seems to be the top element that is fleixing.

[Sash1]

Or allow flex. In the end it will be cheaper and easier for every team when you allow it, instead of exploring grey areas every time again (costing money), gaining performance (and gaining money).

[SenorSjon]

The flex in the video is build in. They could connect the two parts sliding past each other and the flex would be gone.

[baddog]

Interesting that it only seems to be the top element that is fleixing.

That is so blatant its not funny really.

[JeePee]

I like how this is ongoing since 2004 or so, and they flex even harder than back then

[PayasYouRace]

Simple. Make it an unappealable penalty, like a kerb strike. A sensor on the wing that picks it up moving out of alignment from the reference plane under load, and once it exceeds a threshold, the sanctions are automatically notified.

Those nice little splits in the wing that everyone seems to have would be a real handy place to put it.
Watch those wings stop flexing real quick.

What’s the allowable flex under your system? It’s impossible to build a perfectly rigid structure, so how much is the threshold between legal and illegal, and how do you arrive at the value?

This is the thing about this topic. It’s impossible to eliminate because any wing, any cantilevered structure, will bend when subjected to a load.

Never mind that aeroelasticity is an emerging field in terms of making vehicles more efficient.

Hopefully with the active aero in the next rules this all becomes irrelevant.

[JL14]

Simple. Make it an unappealable penalty, like a kerb strike. A sensor on the wing that picks it up moving out of alignment from the reference plane under load, and once it exceeds a threshold, the sanctions are automatically notified.

 

Those nice little splits in the wing that everyone seems to have would be a real handy place to put it. 

Watch those wings stop flexing real quick.  

 

Those sensors would get triggered on each kerb ride

[SenorSjon]

What’s the allowable flex under your system? It’s impossible to build a perfectly rigid structure, so how much is the threshold between legal and illegal, and how do you arrive at the value?

This is the thing about this topic. It’s impossible to eliminate because any wing, any cantilevered structure, will bend when subjected to a load.

Never mind that aeroelasticity is an emerging field in terms of making vehicles more efficient.

Hopefully with the active aero in the next rules this all becomes irrelevant.

 

It would help the 3-4 horizontal parts are made of one piece so they flex as a whole and not like you see on the video with flexing aero trickery.

[Clatter]

Or Merc in 2021.
They do it all.
For RB before, the wing was within specification and test limits, but they changed the specification and test to make sure the RB wing was not usable anymore.
Didn't FIA changed the wing rules midway 2017 (or 2018?) season to do the oposite; accomondate the bending front wing of Merc which was out of spec?

Don't think any wings were out of spec. What was changed was the static test, and they still passed.

[PayasYouRace]

I wonder how much the increased stiffness of wings because of flexi wings “controversy” is contributing to the extra weight of the cars. That stiffness doesn’t come for free.

I think if you want lighter cars, you’d maybe want to be a bit more lenient on wing flexing.

[PayasYouRace]

It would help the 3-4 horizontal parts are made of one piece so they flex as a whole and not like you see on the video with flexing aero trickery.

Making them more sensitive to dirty air. Another trade off.

[ensign14]

JUST BAN FRONT WINGS

 

SIMPLES

[jonklug]

The flex in the video is build in. They could connect the two parts sliding past each other and the flex would be gone.

 

Yep, it's clearly intentionally designed that way. Which is why it's so effective and why other teams are reluctant to copy it - and hence awaiting clarification if they will be allowed or not next year. 

[brucewayne]

Yep, it's clearly intentionally designed that way. Which is why it's so effective and why other teams are reluctant to copy it - and hence awaiting clarification if they will be allowed or not next year.

No one wants to waste budget cap resources for something that might get banned. Let’s see what FIA is reporting in Singapore.

[Garagista]

The cynical part of me also think that Would also be a really big ask from Liberty, not to have this end of the season that has the potential of being incredibly close with Norris getting closer every weekend.

 

If Norris was already closer to Max,methinks, it would have been a much easier decision to make!

[DW46]

The pre emptive nerf for 2025.

[TomNokoe]

Am I wrong to say to accept the precedent from 14 years ago? Does that make me bitter and cynical?

If it passes the test, it passes the test.

[vlado]

“Behind this gray area there is not only a gain in terms of drag, the cars stop bouncing if you use the correct interaction between the front wing and the floor in the corners. It directly affects the overall concept.”

https://t.co/IpyVOK9vq3

[catent]

Ferrari and Red Bull have a small amount of flex. Mercedes moderate - arguably significant - flex. McLaren is in a league of their own.

 

This may explain why McLaren (and of recently, Mercedes) tend to run relatively larger/higher surface area front wing compared to most other teams.

 

Edited by catent, 04 September 2024 - 12:39.

[ARTGP]

“Behind this gray area there is not only a gain in terms of drag, the cars stop bouncing if you use the correct interaction between the front wing and the floor in the corners. It directly affects the overall concept.”

https://t.co/IpyVOK9vq3

 

An interesting read.

 

 

 

Red Bull, Ferrari and Williams are in fact dissatisfied with the level of flexibility shown by the front wings of the papaya team, especially with the specification introduced in Austria, and of the former world champion, with the first wing being seen flexing aggressively again on the long straights of Monza while the second shows a much more pronounced flex when the car passes over the kerbs. It is widely believed that Mercedes' steps forward are mainly due to the new front wing, brought to the track from Monte Carlo, on which the Anglo-German team has invested a good part of the budget also in terms of its flexibility, according to a direct competitor. 

[SenorSjon]

Ferrari and Red Bull have a small amount of flex. Mercedes moderate - arguably significant - flex. McLaren is in a league of their own.

 

This may explain why McLaren (and of recently, Mercedes) tend to run relatively larger/higher surface area front wing compared to most other teams.

 

 

How can that be legal? 2021 had much less flex than that.

[Massa_f1]

Amazed the McLaren wing passes the sensor test.

 

It will be band once f1 has had a close championship.

 

You can see why Red Bull and Ferrari are asking the question.

[Laptom]

Ferrari and Red Bull have a small amount of flex. Mercedes moderate - arguably significant - flex. McLaren is in a league of their own.

 

This may explain why McLaren (and of recently, Mercedes) tend to run relatively larger/higher surface area front wing compared to most other teams.

 

 

In 2021 this wing would get banned. I don't want to say it is because of Merc now on the receiving edge, but the rules are exactly to avoid these type of things.

It would not bother me that much, if they didn't banned the legal wing of RB in 2021 by changing the regulations mid-season.

[SCUDmissile]

Just have movable aero.