66 replies to this topic

[P.Dron]

Very interesting...

 

https://youtu.be/xOhZXh_kK-c

[sabrejet]

Wow. I'd love to know what's behind this.

[Bloggsworth]

Your card is marked...

[La Sarthe]

That's a shame. I'd assumed that slotting a DFV into my Cobra would be OK (it's a Ford after all), but not so sure now...

[DCapps]

DAY-AM! So much for the 480 Reynolds/McLaren block in the C3 Corvette then...

[DCapps]

That's a shame. I'd assumed that slotting a DFV into my Cobra would be OK (it's a Ford after all), but not so sure now...

 

The DFV would have to go into your Capri, of course, no problem, same company same country.

[2F-001]

The DFV would have to go into your Capri, of course, no problem, same company same country.

Well, it's been done before...!

Edited by 2F-001, 03 September 2024 - 22:45.

[Ralf Pickel]

So - will the expected lead after one lap for the Newey E less than 5 sec this time ?

[john aston]

It's about more than dodgy Goodwood hot rods- the passage about treating both himself and  officials was spoken with barely suppressed anger . Sounds like there has been an unpleasantness . 

[sabrejet]

Indeed it does. I haven't seen this kind of demeanour before and clearly it's taken something profound to get to that stage.

 

For years we've discussed the incredible way that the circuit has been able to keep low fences and great viewing while many others raise the fencing higher by the year. It wouldn't take much to ruin that forever.

[Gabrci]

Wow, I'd never heard him speak anything like this before. Thinking about it, I'd never heard him be anything but positive before. It seems to be a combination of things that made him use words like cheating and threaten to send people home. I guess this is as furious as a British gentleman can ever possibly allow to show themselves. 

 

In a way the event has become a victim of its own success, winning at the Revival has become too important. 

[ensign14]

Wow, I'd never heard him speak anything like this before. Thinking about it, I'd never heard him be anything but positive before. It seems to be a combination of things that made him use words like cheating and threaten to send people home. I guess this is as furious as a British gentleman can ever possibly allow to show themselves. 

 

Might even escalate to a strongly-worded letter.

[Stephen W]

The DFV would have to go into your Capri, of course, no problem, same company same country.

 

I think the give-away would be the two extra cylinders!

[Odseybod]

Might even escalate to a strongly-worded letter.

Steady on!

 

I suppose black-balling has been ruled out on discriminatory grounds.

[Stephen W]

Does this mean that only genuine period Jaguar E-Type Lightweights will be allowed?

 

This stance may backfire initially as the fake cars are weeded out grid sizes may drop. However, in the long run it might see more original cars entering as they will no longer be uncompetitive against the overly engineered modern replicas. 

[ensign14]

Steady on!

 

I suppose black-balling has been ruled out on discriminatory grounds.

Sending to Coventry won't work, as they simply get their Jags upgraded there.

[GTMRacer]

So does that mean all the Lotus Cortina's will have to actually be Lotus Cortina's and have their suspension pickups put back to the right place? 

[JonnyA]

Fascinating. I've noticed a couple of prominent 'press-on-at-all-costs' historic drivers who've disappeared from Goodwood over the years, presumably after failing to heed reminders about driving standards. Also a couple of clearly not-period cars that did exceptionally well and then never appeared again, e.g. wasn't there a supercharged Morris Minor in the early years? But it's about time a public statement like this was made. Hopefully it'll level the playing field a bit more, e.g. Cobras that handle well beyond anything possible in period and predictably dominate the TT.

[Macca]

Grabbed from FB of testing a few days ago; one of those cars is an E-Type.

Paul M

[Myhinpaa]

https://forums.jag-l...ting-day/450470

 

From the post:

 

"In the pits during a break in testing (while a stand was being roofed from the circuit) a punter questioned whether PS1175 had any special or perhaps illegal modifications. The mechanic to whom these questions were posed was clearly annoyed, not least as the car had been at Silverstone just a few days earlier for the Festival meeting and still wore its scrutineers stickers."

 

Nothing to see there then, obviously.

 

The GT40 next to it are rumoured to have many interesting improvements too...

[rl1856]

Weeding out the......restored......vehicles may have unintended consequences as one moves up the chain.  Casual spectators come to see Ferraris battle Cobras and Jaguars in quite aggressive racing conditions.  Original surviving chassis are now extremely valuable, and owners are hesitant take them into battle on the track.   A tribute, re-creation or toolroom copy allows the public to experience something of what it was like back in the day, and allows enthusiastic owners to have a go.  Strict enforcement of rules or changing of rules to eliminate tribute, recreation or toolroom copies would turn races into moderate speed rallies or processions.   OTOH, lower level classes and cars would be less affected.  Real fans would cheer a track full of authentic Minis or AH Sprites racing at full speed.  Casual spectators may not, and unfortunately it is the casual spectator who pays the bills at high profile events.  A long way of suggesting that non original cars are not going anywhere and will continue to be directly or indirectly accepted. 

[jtremlett]

I take it that someone took exception to being told they couldn't race something blatantly not classic.  

 

I'm sure that won't mean the end of replicas at the Revival.   I interpret it to mean don't go too far and certainly don't get unpleasant if you're found out. 

 

Separately, I do wonder if anyone ever told Karun Chandhok that it wasn't actually a 250 GTO that he crashed in last year?

[JonnyA]

It sounds to me like the issue isn't between originals/replicas, but refers to cars of either type that have been developed far beyond the original design... with the rulebook skirted or ignored according to the owner's taste.

[Myhinpaa]

I take it that someone took exception to being told they couldn't race something blatantly not classic.  

 

I'm sure that won't mean the end of replicas at the Revival.   I interpret it to mean don't go too far and certainly don't get unpleasant if you're found out. 

 

Separately, I do wonder if anyone ever told Karun Chandhok that it wasn't actually a 250 GTO that he crashed in last year?

 

The 250 "GTO" he drove last year was a (not very nice) replica based on a 250 GTE, ch.no. 3731GT

Carlos Mpnteverde owns it, and the proper GTO it's supposed to look like, ch.no. 3851GT, (which is very nice)

 

Replicas have been accepted at Goodwood Revival for many years,

providing they are to correct spec. (??) and that the entrant owns the original too.

 

Which is better than a "genuine" car built to modern spec. using non period parts, materials and methods.

 

PS. Footage from the very first Revival, enjoy! https://www.goodwood...odwood-revival/

Edited by Myhinpaa, 06 September 2024 - 09:17.

[john aston]

Goodwood is sui generis. I hope my 'authenticity' as a spectator is credible but I confess I bloody love the racing at the MM and Revival . Much of it is better than anything I saw in period and I confess I don't waste much sleep on the provenance of the cars. Even a 100% authentic Sixties car would be unlike its original spec - tyres, rollbars, seatbelts and the standard of preparation is far better than in the past. We don't ask drivers to race in shirtsleeves , or get them to throw  away those pesky HANS devices , the marshals no longer wear Barbours, or spark up an Embassy Tipped mid race - and I bet the fire extinguishers work too. Unlike the crap I was given as a teenage marshal.

 

Goodwood is what The Good Old Days was on TV - a pantomime which evoked the past but not in every minute detail. At Goodwood nobody wore Marilyn Monroe or Wing Commander outfits in 1965 and they'd have been laughed at  if they had. It's a glorious show - no championships involved , no privacy tape or similar nonsense. I celebrate it for what it is , not mourn it for not being something else. 

 

I'll repeat what I once said in a similar thread - criticising Goodwood is like complaining that the PA of a Beatles tribute band sounds too good . 

[nicanary]

Goodwood is sui generis. I hope my 'authenticity' as a spectator is credible but I confess I bloody love the racing at the MM and Revival . Much of it is better than anything I saw in period and I confess I don't waste much sleep on the provenance of the cars. Even a 100% authentic Sixties car would be unlike its original spec - tyres, rollbars, seatbelts and the standard of preparation is far better than in the past. We don't ask drivers to race in shirtsleeves , or get them to throw  away those pesky HANS devices , the marshals no longer wear Barbours, or spark up an Embassy Tipped mid race - and I bet the fire extinguishers work too. Unlike the crap I was given as a teenage marshal.

 

Goodwood is what The Good Old Days was on TV - a pantomime which evoked the past but not in every minute detail. At Goodwood nobody wore Marilyn Monroe or Wing Commander outfits in 1965 and they'd have been laughed at  if they had. It's a glorious show - no championships involved , no privacy tape or similar nonsense. I celebrate it for what it is , not mourn it for not being something else. 

 

I'll repeat what I once said in a similar thread - criticising Goodwood is like complaining that the PA of a Beatles tribute band sounds too good . 

Agree with this post. As for a supercharged Minor, that would easily have been allowed in period - 5-lap handicap for closed cars etc..

 

I don't think His Grace's address is to do with the antics at the Ferrari OC meeting. This seems far more serious. I wouldn't be surprised if one of his favoured regular entrants has  "gone too far"". Extracting the urine, so to speak.

[sabrejet]

I think it seems pretty obvious what the message is: respect the event and respect its representatives.

 

Simply put, if something wasn't done in period, it shouldn't be eligible. And if you are challenged by an official of the meeting, you should abide by their judgement. And if you don't agree with that judgement, there are ways to behave.

 

None of this precludes the entry of replicas, tool-room copies, sanctions or whatever term is required. In fact this is the only way we'll see GTOs racing in future; and the list of 'too valuable to race' types will only expand.

 

But there will still be grey areas: tyres for a start will not be remotely similar in compound to those raced in period. Good job too.

 

I'm not sure how you'd ever police engine internals though. I have noted on occasion that when cars of a similar type are running on track at the same time, some sound very different. This was the case in the all-Mustang race last year (was it last year? tempus fugit). I've noticed it with GT40s too.

 

Hopefully things will settle down and this year's will be one to remember for all the right reasons. 

[sabrejet]

Incidentally, from Myhinpaa's link above: no threads showing on a wheel stud/nut combination is not "attention to detail" - I'd say it would be rejected by a scrutineer as unsafe.

 

Anyone care to comment?

 

[JonnyA]

My father, an aerospace engineer, taught me that the stud/bolt must have at least 1.5 threads visible beyond the nut. Seems sensible to me, no idea though what modern practice is.

[Myhinpaa]

1.5 threads protruding from the nut is a very good, sound established practice.

At the minimum it should have been flush with the 45 degree chamfer protruding + the machined radius.

 

Compare this with the photo of the original D-type wheel, with 1.5 threads showing, coincidentally...

 

Surely, at one stage it will be known what led the Duke to issue his quite stern statement.

[jtremlett]

Goodwood is sui generis. I hope my 'authenticity' as a spectator is credible but I confess I bloody love the racing at the MM and Revival . Much of it is better than anything I saw in period and I confess I don't waste much sleep on the provenance of the cars. Even a 100% authentic Sixties car would be unlike its original spec - tyres, rollbars, seatbelts and the standard of preparation is far better than in the past. We don't ask drivers to race in shirtsleeves , or get them to throw  away those pesky HANS devices , the marshals no longer wear Barbours, or spark up an Embassy Tipped mid race - and I bet the fire extinguishers work too. Unlike the crap I was given as a teenage marshal.

 

Goodwood is what The Good Old Days was on TV - a pantomime which evoked the past but not in every minute detail. At Goodwood nobody wore Marilyn Monroe or Wing Commander outfits in 1965 and they'd have been laughed at  if they had. It's a glorious show - no championships involved , no privacy tape or similar nonsense. I celebrate it for what it is , not mourn it for not being something else. 

 

I'll repeat what I once said in a similar thread - criticising Goodwood is like complaining that the PA of a Beatles tribute band sounds too good . 

I agree that Goodwood is theatre and to be celebrated and enjoyed for what it is and I don't have a problem with replicas racing at the Revival any more than I have a problem with the "replica" Dad's Army or the "replica" Glam Cabs.  Although, of course, it is necessary to enforce some degree of equity amongst the entrants or it just becomes a technical race in the workshop and not an actual race on track.  That said, I thought the Karun Chandhok GTO incident was dishonest because nowhere, in any of the reporting I saw, did anyone admit it was a replica.  

[john aston]

It's hardly 'dishonest ' - it just wasn't important . I'm sure it's life and death to some (and I'd like to have been told) but for 99% of the people who enjoy the racing at Goodwood - it just  doesn't matter very much , or at all  .  

[FastReader]

 

Surely, at one stage it will be known what led the Duke to issue his quite stern statement.

 

I wonder if Doug Nye has any thoughts on this?

[jtremlett]

It's hardly 'dishonest ' - it just wasn't important . I'm sure it's life and death to some (and I'd like to have been told) but for 99% of the people who enjoy the racing at Goodwood - it just  doesn't matter very much , or at all  .  

Not important in relation to the racing, the event and most of the spectators.  But it is dishonest when it is being subsequently reported although I suppose one might equally argue that it just is the standard sloppy reporting you get for just about everything these days.

[sabrejet]

I wonder if Doug Nye has any thoughts on this?

 

I suspect he is understandably keeping his thoughts to himself. 

[F1matt]

After watching that video I would be keeping my thoughts to myself, the Duke sounded quite irate. 

[BRG]

After watching that video I would be keeping my thoughts to myself, the Duke sounded quite irate. 

No, just being firm but fair in a paternalistic and proprietorial sort of way. 

 

You cross swords with the aristocracy at your peril, even in these woke days.

[9203RW]

I still don't get it.  I watched the video and the message seemed very clear.  Yet why has the Newey E-Type been invited back?  Even if it did start life as the Phil Scragg car, its departure from original specification is surely far wider than is the case with some of the replica GT40s (for example).  Just maybe, we can look forward to next year's 'TT Celebration' entry list looking more like that of, say, 20 years ago.

[bsc]

I still don't get it. I watched the video and the message seemed very clear. Yet why has the Newey E-Type been invited back?

The spec of the Newey car is well documented and Goodwood would have issued an invite in the full knowledge of what it is. I wonder if the bigger issue is people turning up with cars of radically different specifications to those expected.

[brucemoxon]

My expertise, such as it is, is in touring cars. And over the years (via video only, from the Antipodes) I've seen a couple of performances that raised an eyebrow or two. John Fitzpatrick in the Austin A95/105 Westminster that seemed to have Actual Brakes was one. My father raced one here and while he said the straight-line speed was impressive, getting rid of it before the next corner was a major drama. 

 

And the 48/215 Holden the late Peter Brock raced - had the wrong engine (red, not grey - very different engines), disc front brakes and four-speed gearbox, didn't it? Hardly period-correct. 

 

I have heard of fudges with the wheelbases of Cortinas, too. 

 

Over here, we seem a bit stricter one what's allowed and what's not - if it was done at the time and inside the then-rules, it's what you do now. 

 

 

 

 

BRM

[Doug Nye]

I feel the message is perfectly clear to those tempted to go too far - for commercial reasons, for reasons of personal aggrandisement, due to uncontrolled and unacceptable sociopathy, or for some split-second reasons the perpetrators might instantly regret and remember to their own embarrassment for years to come.  It is a question of enjoy the event - but do not exceed perfectly justifiable limits to do so.  

 

It depends upon what part of "One strike and out" will they not understand?  From the race organising aspect, there are in most classes plenty of would-be alternative runners, riders and drivers who will eagerly take a proven cheater's, or verbal aggressor's, place...

 

The interesting aspect to me is the number of entrants and drivers who have reacted with concern, asking earnestly about infringements they might commit 'involuntarily'.

 

Hah!  Simple self-control springs to mind...

 

And, to add perspective, this is not only a Goodwood tightening of standards, although Goodwood events have perhaps been more liberally policed in favour of The Show, and simple spectator enjoyment, than most similar fixtures - which generally attract far smaller, and more specialised-interest, audiences.  Other areas of the Historic racing world are now also paying parallel attention to enforcing better behaviour standards.

 

Any participant who might not like increased heat can simply shape up ... or leave the kitchen.  It has become high time for this to be made clear.

 

DCN

[2F-001]

I did get the impression that this was as much to do with behaviour and attitude as it was about technical matters.

(And I did wonder if someone had taken ill-mannered exception to being told - or more likely asked politely - to keep ‘on side’, bringing matters to a head.)

Edited by 2F-001, 06 September 2024 - 10:24.

[Andrew Stevens]

I think it's well overdue. Speaking as a historic car and racing enthusiast that grew up in the Australian system of much stricter enforcement of the rules as they stand, I was always a little uncomfortable with some of the 'free' specifications of 'historic' cars that were a fair distance from what they were like originally. 

 

Still grateful for the event and the chance to see some wonderful cars in actions, but also glad from a purist point of view that it appears that there will be no longer 'lowline' Cobras, GT40s with unusual firing orders, saloon cars with much greater engine capacity and dic brakes when not fitted originally etc etc. Good on the Duke for using his special position as the gatekeeper for this event to reinforce some standards.

 

As mentioned above, fine to run toolroom replicas etc, but identify them compared to period cars. Maybe have a different colour number or something like that?  

Edited by Andrew Stevens, 06 September 2024 - 20:48.

[LittleChris]

Might seem a bit simplistic, but I'd want to know:

 

From a technical point of view, who were the Chief Scrutineer's when all this was going on over the past 26 years ?

 

From a non technical point of view who was responsible for issuing the invites to competitors ?

[Andrew Stevens]

Interesting watching the live feed for Friday's running and watching Tom Kristensen (spelling?) shift up to 5th gear in a 250 SWB from the in car camera... Unusual for a 4 speed car...

[BRG]

Might seem a bit simplistic, but I'd want to know:

 

From a technical point of view, who were the Chief Scrutineer's when all this was going on over the past 26 years ?

 

From a non technical point of view who was responsible for issuing the invites to competitors ?

I don't think you should point a finger at the scrutineers.  Eligibility is a separate issue decided by the event organiser, not the scrutineers.  Their priority is safety and compliance with all the rules surrounding that.

 

As for the invites, I may be wrong, but wasn't DCN advising Goodwood in this area?

[Doug Nye]

I was - but in this area not substantially for some years now... 

 

DCN 

[jonpollak]

Enjoyed todays broadcast.

 

Jp

[AllanL]

From personal experience, the giving of advice does not guarantee acceptance or action, or even acknowledgement, on the advice by those in receipt of the advice should it not suit what they want to hear.

I was curious to know what could be the source of the following advice in bold text on dress code from the Revival Dress code web page :

"We ask that your sartorial choices are made with care. Guests are discouraged from making controversial uniforms and culturally appropriated items a part of their Revival looks. Everyone should feel welcome and respected at Revival; Goodwood therefore reserves the right to ask visitors who are inappropriately attired to leave the event."

The usual rules include the comment requesting a dress or suit for the ladies including no bare midriffs. It was heart warming to see the following adherence to the rules:

https://imgur.com/uvmCKCU

[jonpollak]

After clicking your link....

 

Standards need maintaining..for society..ffs.

Jp