54 replies to this topic

[mariner]

The Monza news was about Ferrai mostly but the Renault engine union strke protest at the planned closue of Vitry also figured

 

Looking it all up I discoverd Renault engines are 4th in wins, 160, with Cosworth  on 176, Mercedes on 218  and Ferrari on 247 . I was surprised how close MB are to Ferrari but then it gets complicated.

 

Google tells me that "one Ferrari private win at the 1961 French Grand Prix." This was actually the  Ferrari technically entered by Federazione Italiana Scuderie Automobilische and driven by Baghetti.

 

One of the Cosworth victories was , of course Rob Walkers privateer win at Brands in 1968

 

So getting back to the old "GP" vesus " F1" discussion how many wins did Cosworth ( or BRM etc. ) have if you define "F1" as any race run to the contemporary FIA F1 regs? i.e with non-Champinship races?

 

I  that would push Cosworth up a lot due tol the early season UK races 

 

 

"

Edited by mariner, 04 September 2024 - 09:15.

[opplock]

 

 

One of the Cosworth victories was , of course Rob Walkers privateer win at Brands in 1968

 

 

"

 

 

How should the Tyrrell team's win at Jarama in 1970 be categorised? Too professional perhaps to be described as privateers but they were not a works team in 1970 until 001 was raced. 

[Sterzo]

You might prompt more answers to this question in the Racing Comments "F1 Crazy Statistics" thread, frequented by people with an amazing command of such things.

[Collombin]

I'll start the bidding at 29 extra wins.

[D-Type]

What about Coventry Climax?  Particularly if non-Championship F1 races are included.

[Collombin]

What about Coventry Climax? Particularly if non-Championship F1 races are included.

97, allowing a margin of error for miscounting.

[68targa]

According to the Wiki site Coventry Climax had 40 Championship GP and 59 non-championship wins. Probably a record for winning more of the latter than the former

[Collombin]

According to the Wiki site Coventry Climax had 40 Championship GP and 59 non-championship wins. Probably a record for winning more of the latter than the former

I feel more confident knowing that Wiki disagrees with my number! As they only list the championship ones it's tricky to check though.

Wouldn't Maserati also be heavily weighted towards non-championship wins?

[Roger Clark]

Ferrari have had a few non-championship wins too.  In 1952-53 do you count non-championship formula 2 wins or formula 1 wins?  The past is a foreign country.

[Collombin]

The opening post seemed to be very specific about F1, so I'd go with that. Especially as even "non-championship" needs clarification in relation to 1952!

[DCapps]

"F1" = the bane of motor sport history...

[BRG]

Looking it all up I discovered Renault engines are 4th in wins, 160, with Cosworth  on 176, Mercedes on 218  and Ferrari on 247 . I was surprised how close MB are to Ferrari but then it gets complicated.

 

Google tells me that "one Ferrari private win at the 1961 French Grand Prix." This was actually the  Ferrari technically entered by Federazione Italiana Scuderie Automobilische and driven by Baghetti.

 

One of the Cosworth victories was , of course Rob Walkers privateer win at Brands in 1968.

 

I am not going to get into the non-WC and pre-WC F1 victories but I would like to amend your totals above.

 

Renault engines have actually won 178 times if we add in the laughably branded "TAG Heuer" motors used by Red Bull:  putting them ahead of Cosworth which surprised me. 

Mercedes get an extra win by virtue of the "BWT Mercedes" engine in the pink Racing Point (or whatever it was called) taking them to 219. 

We can conflate pure Honda, Mugen Honda and Honda RBPT to give us 121 wins for them.

 

The privateer winners that you mention were already included in the grand totals for each engine maker.

[opplock]

 

 

 

So getting back to the old "GP" vesus " F1" discussion how many wins did Cosworth ( or BRM etc. ) have if you define "F1" as any race run to the contemporary FIA F1 regs? i.e with non-Champinship races?

 

 

 

 

"

 

 

If you include non-championship races Chevrolet must be credited with one win. Unless you exclude any race with an F5000 class. Which means you should also exclude F2 so no World Championship races in 52 and 53 count. Nor many GPs held at Nurburgring. A monumental can of worms. How about the Tasman Cup? Not specifically run to F1 regulations but in Jan 1966 I saw Richard Attwood win in a BRM very similar to that which won the Monaco GP a few months later. The various South African races..... The Rothmans 50,000. 

 

Makes estimating the number of mythical beings that can fit on the head of a pin seem like child's play.

[uechtel]

How should the Tyrrell team's win at Jarama in 1970 be categorised? Too professional perhaps to be described as privateers but they were not a works team in 1970 until 001 was raced. 

 

It doesn´t really work to try to press the past under modern-day thinking. The term 'private team' has got a completely different meaning now. Whether 'works' or 'customer' had nothing to do with the source of the engines, just whether a team built its own chassis or bought it from somewhere else. Otherwise, if you regard it the modern way, more or less all teams using Ford-/Cosworth-engines would have to be categorized as 'private'. But Tyrrell did have quite a close connection to Ford, as this was the reason why they had parted with Matra (to which they had a quite interesting status as well). So concerning the relationship to Ford, Tyrrell certainly was as much 'works' level status as Lotus, McLaren or Brabham as well, only that they used a customer chassis.

 

Of course into the 1970ies things became more complicated when teams producing their own chassis had their Cosworth engines tuned and maintained by third party companies like Nicholson etc. So can these still be regarded as 'works' engines...

[Doug Nye]

Statistics.  Without first specifying precise rules of engagement, why bother...  ???

 

DCN

[DCapps]

Statistics.  Without first specifying precise rules of engagement, why bother...  ???

 

DCN

 

Let me add to my earlier comment: Statistics without context = Also a Bane of the history of motor sport...

 

As Doug correctly points out, without any ROE, so what? Just the usual trivia for trivial minds, as they say...

 

Folks such as Doug set the framework, operationally define the terms, set the context, and then present what they find.       

[BRG]

If you include non-championship races Chevrolet must be credited with one win. Unless you exclude any race with an F5000 class. Which means you should also exclude F2 so no World Championship races in 52 and 53 count. 

A F5000 engine did not meet the F1 regulations so it cannot be included.  The F2 engines however did fall within the then still current F1 regulations of 4.5 litre n/a or 1.5 litre supercharged.  There was no rule that smaller engines were not allowed

 

Statistics.  Without first specifying precise rules of engagement, why bother...  ???

 

DCN

 

Let me add to my earlier comment: Statistics without context = Also a Bane of the history of motor sport...

 

WIthout the statistics, you would just be left with the damned lies.  

[DCapps]

 

WIthout the statistics, you would just be left with the damned lies.  

 

Or Alternate Facts as they seem to be referred to these days. 

 

One of the interesting aspects of sport history in general is the way statistics/data/whatever is embedded into the narrative. 

I'm no different, of course, because when I became really interested in motor sport's past in the 1960s, most of the data we have today was simply not available, easily or otherwise.

Even with a decent assortment of magazines and books, the gaps were often lightyears from what we have today.

 

It is when the statistics/data/whatever BECOMES the past and its "history" that you have a problem. Just as the obsession with the vehicular artifacts and their minutiae is myopic and tends to ignore the context of the sport in many cases.

Here and elsewhere there is the Eurocentric (even Anglocentric and/or anglophilic in many instances) focus that tends to distort this history, even, GASP! OH MY!, at TNF.

About several quadrillion "auto racing historians" focus and obsess over F1 (generally simply "borrowing" from FOR or other sources -- no attribution, of course) while maybe eight or so people (almost all of them on TNF it seems)  look elsewhere and delve into those topics within the sport.

 

Oh, well, other things to do today within the realm of historical inquiry.

[rl1856]

We should include Offenhauser in the official count of winning F1/GP engines.  The Indianapolis 500 was included as an official race, counting towards the F1/GP Championship from 1950-1960.  An Offenhauser powered car won all 10 races.  However the link between engine and team was similar to that of Coventry Climax and Ford.  An Offenhauser engine was available for purchase by anyone, and then dropped into whatever chassis was used by the team.   Was each a works team or a privateer ?  Probably the later as most purchased their chassis, then implemented their own development and tweaks.

[BRG]

We should include Offenhauser in the official count of winning F1/GP engines.  The Indianapolis 500 was included as an official race, counting towards the F1/GP Championship from 1950-1960.  An Offenhauser powered car won all 10 races.  However the link between engine and team was similar to that of Coventry Climax and Ford.  An Offenhauser engine was available for purchase by anyone, and then dropped into whatever chassis was used by the team.   Was each a works team or a privateer ?  Probably the later as most purchased their chassis, then implemented their own development and tweaks.

Offenhauser are in the listing, with 11 (not 10) wins - all in the 500 of course - which puts it as equal with Maserati.

[arttidesco]

If you include non-championship races Chevrolet must be credited with one win. Unless you exclude any race with an F5000 class. Which means you should also exclude F2 so no World Championship races in 52 and 53 count. Nor many GPs held at Nurburgring. A monumental can of worms. How about the Tasman Cup? Not specifically run to F1 regulations but in Jan 1966 I saw Richard Attwood win in a BRM very similar to that which won the Monaco GP a few months later. The various South African races..... The Rothmans 50,000. 

 

Makes estimating the number of mythical beings that can fit on the head of a pin seem like child's play.

 

That would actually be two if one includes the 1969  Gran Premio de Madrid de F1  , but as has correctly since been pointed out the Chevy 302 is not a F1 spec engine 

[opplock]

That would actually be two if one includes the 1969  Gran Premio de Madrid de F1  , but as has correctly since been pointed out the Chevy 302 is not a F1 spec engine 

 

Ah, I'd forgotten about that. If the F5000's are excluded presumably for "statistical" purposes the highest placed F1 car is declared to have won. Belated congratulations to Denny Hulme (McLaren M23 Ford Cosworth DFV) and Tony Dean (BRM P261 V12). 

 

I shudder to think what damage Boris Johnson could have done with statistics. 

[arttidesco]

Ah, I'd forgotten about that. If the F5000's are excluded presumably for "statistical" purposes the highest placed F1 car is declared to have won. Belated congratulations to Denny Hulme (McLaren M23 Ford Cosworth DFV) and Tony Dean (BRM P261 V12). 

 

I shudder to think what damage Boris Johnson could have done with statistics. 

 

And what about all the other Libre races won by F1 machines, Rothmans 50,000 et al, cats out the bag now ;-)

[opplock]

And what about all the other Libre races won by F1 machines, Rothmans 50,000 et al, cats out the bag now ;-)

 

Two wins for Martin Brain in a Cooper BRM for starters. The Tasman Ferraris presumably count so I've seen Chris Amon and Graeme Lawrence (both 3 times) and Derek Bell  (once) win in F1 Ferraris. Rewriting history is such fun.  

Edited by opplock, 06 September 2024 - 22:23.

[arttidesco]

Two wins for Martin Brain in a Cooper BRM for starters. The Tasman Ferraris presumably count so I've seen Chris Amon and Graeme Lawrence (both 3 times) and Derek Bell  (once) win in F1 Ferraris. Rewriting history is such fun.  

 

Have you got the Aurora AFX Formula One Championship results factored in ? Does the Group 8 series count ?

[Ray Bell]

Are we counting the Tasman Cup (1966 to 1969) in this?

 

These cars were all eligible for F1 at that time (possibly without the minimum weight limit... but who weighed them?).

 

Also, with regard to smaller engines and their eligibility, I would think that the 3-litre F1 had no lower limit, hence the FVA engines would have been eligible. But again, F2 cars running in the F1 race (as did Jacky Ickx at the Nurburgring) would have been underweight.

[Collombin]

Also, with regard to smaller engines and their eligibility, I would think that the 3-litre F1 had no lower limit, hence the FVA engines would have been eligible. But again, F2 cars running in the F1 race (as did Jacky Ickx at the Nurburgring) would have been underweight.

I only know of the 1961-65 F1 regs having a lower limit (1.3 litres?).

With car groups, there was a rule that cars could only belong to one group (eg a Group 1 touring car could not simultaneously consider itself a Group 3 GT car whenever it suited), but I don't know if anything similar applied to the different formulae (eg whether an F2 car could also be an F1 car, or had to be considered in the lowest formula to which it qualified).

Re Ickx, did he run an F2 car in an F1 race, or was he running in a contemporaneous F2 race?

[BRG]

We seem to have chased the ball into the undergrowth!

 

I think we should only consider races that were specifically run to F1 regulations.  So a race that allowed 5 litre cars does not count nor I think does the Tasman series as an actual F1 car was not eligible. However, there was nothing to stop people entering cars with smaller engines as long as they complied with other rules such as minimum weight. Not sure where that leaves F2 cars such as Ickx at the 'Ring?

 

This does leave national F1 series that will count as long as they were only for F1 compliant cars.

[DCapps]

We seem to have chased the ball into the undergrowth!

 

I think we should only consider races that were specifically run to F1 regulations.  So a race that allowed 5 litre cars does not count nor I think does the Tasman series as an actual F1 car was not eligible. However, there was nothing to stop people entering cars with smaller engines as long as they complied with other rules such as minimum weight. Not sure where that leaves F2 cars such as Ickx at the 'Ring?

 

This does leave national F1 series that will count as long as they were only for F1 compliant cars.

 

 

So, this means only events since 1947 would be considered, leaving those events held using the Formule Internationale de Course then in effect outside the parameters of the survey.

 

After all, Formula One is the Alpha Omega and everything in-between of motor sport, the Holy-of-the-Holies, everything pales before it and is the of the merest insignificance.

 

As mentioned, Motor Sport History only begins with 1950, so even including any events from 1947 to 1949 would be heresy of the worst sort.

 

Not that I would dare venture an opinion regarding all this. Of course.

 

Although I might have missed an earlier reference, there is a mention of the "Formule Internationale de Course" in the minutes of the annual AIACR meeting held on 15 December 1910.

[FLB]

Offenhauser are in the listing, with 11 (not 10) wins - all in the 500 of course - which puts it as equal with Maserati.

If you twist the question asked in this thread a bit and focus in the number of World Championship of Drivers races where the driver had a car powered by a Ferrari engine, the 1952 Indy 500 needs to be taken into account.

[FlyingSaucer]

Two wins for Martin Brain in a Cooper BRM for starters. The Tasman Ferraris presumably count so I've seen Chris Amon and Graeme Lawrence (both 3 times) and Derek Bell  (once) win in F1 Ferraris. Rewriting history is such fun.  

 

Well, if you want to count all of the victories of Graeme Lawrence, they go way beyond 3 with Ferrari. These are all the victories I have registered by the duo 246T/Lawrence

 

04/10/1969 - Bay Park Gold Star (New Zeland Gold Star)

03/01/1970 - Levin International GP (Tasman Series)

15/03/1970 - Ruapuna Gold Star (New Zeland Gold Star)

29/03/1970 - Singapore Grand Prix (F. Libre event)

05/04/1970 - Selangor Grand Prix (F. Libre event)

15/11/1970 - Pukekohe Gold Star (New Zeland Gold Star)

28/11/1970 - Levin Gold Star (New Zeland Gold Star)

 

But, as someone mentioned in a comment above, it all depends on how these races are qualified. Were they truly F1 races? Well, not for me. But should they be counted as Ferrari chassis victories in F1? For me, yes, especially in the cases of Singapore and Malaysia (Selangor), as it would have been inconceivable at that time for a truly F1 event to be held in Southeast Asia. Lawrence's 246T would be as close to a car in the class as one could hope to get in these events tbh.

Edited by FlyingSaucer, 07 September 2024 - 16:53.

[nexfast]

So, if I understand correctly there are several options to rank engine victories in F1:

 

a) All races that were part of the World Driver's Championship (thus including the Indy races and the F2 seasons of 52/53)

b) All races that were part of the World Driver's Championship that were Formula One races (excluding Indy and the F2 seasons)

c) All races that were staged specifically for cars under Formula One rules (starting in 1947 and including all non-championship events)

d) All races where cars complying with Formula One rules participated irrespective of cars belonging to other categories being present (say Tasman, mixed races with F5000, the one won by Roger Laurent in Scandinavia).

 

With no disrespect for all here who give importance to statistics (and therefore would like to have the numbers right), I somehow suspect that the relative position of the engines won't change that much...

Edited by nexfast, 07 September 2024 - 17:55.

[BRG]

With no disrespect for all here who give importance to statistics (and therefore would like to have the numbers right), I somehow suspect that the relative position of the engines won't change that much...

Indeed so.  There is a clear trend, so modifying the parameters a bit won't make a huge difference.  It shouldn't have come as much of a shock to find that Ferrari engines have won more races than the rest.

[opplock]

 

Well, if you want to count all of the victories of Graeme Lawrence, they go way beyond 3 with Ferrari. 

 

I saw him win 3 races in the Ferrari. All at Levin, one of which is on your list. He also won two races during the national meeting held at Levin on 29th November 1969. He probably won a lot more minor races in NZ but in those days I only got to Levin. 

 

  Good luck identifying every race in which cars complying with F1 regulations competed. There would have been hundreds in NZ and Australia alone. Many of them long since forgotten. 

[Ray Bell]

The Amon/Lawrence/Bell Ferraris were F2 cars with enlarged engines (and wheels?)...

 

As such, I'm sure they were underweight for F! rules. Just as the Ickx Matra would have been.

[Ray Bell]

However, I wonder if anyone weighed the Tasman Cooper run by John Love in the 1967 South African GP?

[Tim Murray]

The F2 races run concurrently with the 1967 and 1969 German GPs were completely separate F2 events, with their own starting grids behind the main F1 grids and results declared separately. So Ickx’s Matra in 1967 would definitely have been at the F2 weight limit. The F2 cars that Matra ran in several other 1967 GPs did have to be ballasted up to the F1 weight limit.

[Collombin]

The F2 races run concurrently with the 1967 and 1969 German GPs were completely separate F2 events, with their own starting grids behind the main F1 grids and results declared separately

The 1950s are less clear - the grids seem to be combined (where it's possible to tell) and did we ever establish why nobody got 5th place points in the 1958 German GP?

[Ray Bell]

At that point in the season they'd run out of points to hand out...

 

They had to get a whole new allocation from the FIA later in the month so the Italian GP could have its points awarded.

 

The fifties was a time of shortages in all things.

 

But if you can believe the Wiki page, then it says there that F2 cars were specifically forbidden from earning WDC points. And then there's this noteL

 

"Despite being the fifth-placed Formula One car, Allison scored no points because he finished tenth on the road behind five Formula Two cars."

[Collombin]

F2 cars were specifically forbidden from earning WDC points

That much is clearly true, but if they were also F1 legal then boo hiss to that rule. There were no weight limits then afaik but would the F2 cars have fallen foul of the new fuel regs for F1?

[BRG]

  Good luck identifying every race in which cars complying with F1 regulations competed. There would have been hundreds in NZ and Australia alone. Many of them long since forgotten. 

I think we are only looking at events run to the F1 regulations of the time.  You might have had a race for cars up to 5000cc and enter a F1 car that met that limit, but it wouldn't be a F1 race.

[DCapps]

I think we are only looking at events run to the F1 regulations of the time.  You might have had a race for cars up to 5000cc and enter a F1 car that met that limit, but it wouldn't be a F1 race.

 

The regulations for Formule Internationale de Course No. 1 were, until about the Seventies, fairly broad. During the Seventies, they grew as more and more pages as safety requirements were added along with the usual bureaucratic desire to nail down specificity.

Also, keep in mind that these regulations pertained to the technical aspects of the machines.

From 1981 onward, the technical and sporting regulations were combined.

What is apparent is that many here still seem to conflate the technical regulations of the Formule International de Course No.1 with the sporting regulations governing the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs that ended with the 1980 season into being one and the same.

It seems clear that the CSI and the FISA issued separate regulations fro each with changes noted as necessary for each season until the consolidation for 1981 (those regs for the NEW championship were issued in the October 1980 Bulletin, by the way).

Keep in mind that not until the 1961 regs for the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs that the championship events were mandated to use the current F1.

That said, the Clowns in Blazers at the CSI/FIA did make it clear during the Seventies that if the various organizing clubs wished, they could include F2 and even "USAC" cars in their championship events -- a means to sidetrack the FICA/FOCA teams if necessary.

 

As pointed out, a LOT of events from the 1948 season when the current Formule Internationale de Course became the Formule Internationale de Course No.1 when the F2 went into effect.

 

For the 1952 and 1953 seasons, the organizing clubs could have run the championship using sports cars (or touring cars) if they so chose at the time. Or simply gone Formule Libre for that matter, as long as the ACN designated the nominated event as its "Classic Event" on the Sporting Calendar and its nominee for the championship.

 

If you are going to set some Terms of Reference or Rules of Engagement that reflect the contemporary/concurrent rules/regs in effect, at least try to make up your mind for the pre-1981 events whether you are looking at the cars (the formule) or the championship: apples and oranges.

 

Then, again, do what is done everyday, create your own Alternate Facts. Most people -- as it is apparent here -- wouldn't know the difference.

[Porsche718]

Didn't the yearly South African national championship run to F1 rules?

 

1961 to approx. 1972 (when they then allowed F5000 cars to enter).

 

EDIT: But I don't know about weight limit.

Edited by Porsche718, 09 September 2024 - 20:30.

[AllanL]

If you want to include races won by lovely Dino 246 engined Ferraris, should you perchance include the much rumoured victories in the Argentinian Temporada of '68?

[Ray Bell]

Yes, Steve, and I'd think it was entirely by the FIA rules...

 

As for the Temporada, I thought that was F2 only. The same cars as used in the Tasman but with 1600cc engines.

[AllanL]

Some engines were thought to be more equal than others in Argentina. This may have been people trying to understand why the cars were never as dominant again in the subsequent European F2 races.

[DCapps]

Didn't the yearly South African national championship run to F1 rules?

 

1961 to approx. 1972 (when they then allowed F5000 cars to enter).

 

EDIT: But I don't know about weight limit.

 

SA adopted the incoming Formule Internationale de Course No. 1 regs a year early, 1960, thru 1965, for their championship series and then the next set of F1 regs from 1966 until at least 1971. 

[Porsche718]

DC,

 

I thought 1960 was still formula libre. There was a D-type and other Jaguar and Corvette based cars running in most events.

 

F1 rules probably began for the 60/61 season in late 1960.

 

"Unless I'm very much mistaken" (as MW would say!)

[FlyingSaucer]

If you want to include races won by lovely Dino 246 engined Ferraris, should you perchance include the much rumoured victories in the Argentinian Temporada of '68?

 

Nah. The 1968 Argentine Temporada followed very strictly the Formula 2 regulations (you can check a text I wrote about the subject on 8W Forix, plus the hole story of the evolution of the 60's Temporadas as well there - also, u can check how the organizers of the A.C.A. were always precise in establishing the specs of each tournament). It is a very different parallel to that which can be established between Lawrence's/Amon's Tasman cars and the F1 ones, even though one can consider the 246T an "evolution" of the 166 F2.

Edited by FlyingSaucer, 10 September 2024 - 01:18.

[AllanL]

thanks, that is an interesting read, taking me back to so many of my teenage heroes. Tyre wars were a feature of the time but are now a largely forgotten element of racing.