240 replies to this topic

[SenorSjon]

Would it really hurt their credibility though? Russell is a very good driver, but Verstappen is by far and away the best driver on the grid. If he becomes available you have to take him

Not only that, you don't want your competitor having him.

[Brawn BGP 001]

Sargent, Zhou, Perez, Magnussen.

Three of them aren't the on the grid next year, good to see the deadwood finally going.

[garoidb]

Again, I didn't say he was going anywhere. I have only said that Lawrence isn't in the game purely because of Lance.

 

Lawrence got Force India for £90m. It's now worth £1.5 billion. So I think there's been something else in it for him, you know. Other reasons to get more involved, more involved in a sport he'd already been involved in for 28 years.

 

What first attracted you to making this business deal that generated £1.41 billion in six years Mr Stroll? Oh my son was whining and didn't fancy playing tennis is all it was. I'd pack it all in tomorrow and buy him a racket if he asked, but he still says he wants to drive so I'm stuck with raking it in for a while longer unfortunately.

 

If a billionaire wanted to create a situation where his son got a drive with a top team, capable of winning Grands Prix and the WDC, how would he do it? They can't simply buy a top team like Ferrari, Red Bull, Mercedes or McLaren any time they like and tell all the people there that a son is now the focus of the team. First of all, such teams are usually not available to buy while they are in good shape. If one did become available while performing at the required level, it would start to disintegrate as soon as the new raison d'etre of the team became apparent. Any big ownership or management change can cause that - like we see at Red Bull now. Becoming a vehicle for a well connected driver to gain unearned privileges and, ultimately, international honours would certainly cause movement and disengagement from a team.

 

So, the billionaire would most likely buy a midfield or backmarker team at an earlier point and build it up with selected people and partnerships who are aligned with, or not dissenting from, the objective. The team then becomes a top team over a period where those involved were always aware of the importance of helping a particular driver. Important engine partnerships can be brought forward, mentor drivers can be recruited to show the young protégé how to go about his mission and top technical staff can be brought on board. The point is that this arrangement is not being foisted on a pre-existing elite team of people. They all understand it from the start. Now, they may choose to believe that the team will be well represented by whatever other driver is also in the team - and these drivers could always have been excellent performers. But when the other driver comes to be replaced, as all drivers are, mightn't the billionaire just fumble the process of getting another superstar on board and, regretfully, have to sign a journeyman for a year or two? They could keep key people on board with a plan to bring in a superstar the following year or the year after that. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. But, to me, that is the only way to have a crack at it. The financial side works out well either way.

Edited by garoidb, 14 September 2024 - 20:43.

[Nathan]

Norris's first year at McLaren was a paid drive.  I remember that coming out when he signed his long-term deal.  Let's say after getting the cold truth from the FDA, Papa Stroll was able to have done similar, I don't think Lance would have earned his boots in a season or two in a quick car like Norris did.  In a way you could say that is the opportunity he got at Williams, which was a 5th place team when he was testing and then a rookie.  Really, I think Stroll had his chance to prove himself a top level talent in his first two years.  As Ferrari found out/pointed out, that talent level isn't there and now at best, he can work himself into a good journeyman that could probably win the odd race while playing support driver role in a championship team Bottas/Perez style.

[Alfisti]

Suspect Antonelli is gonna spank George to be honest and make it a nice and easy decision for Toto.

I'd place a large sum of money on Russell finishing the year ahead on points.

[DW46]

I'd place a large sum of money on Russell finishing the year ahead on points.

We shall see, it’s one of the most interesting battles next year.

[krapmeister]

I'd place a large sum of money on Russell finishing the year ahead on points.

Yeah I think that is likely - Kimi may have some pretty impressive highs but I am sure there will be some Monza FP1-like moments as well.

[Sterzo]

If a billionaire wanted to create a situation where his son got a drive with a top team, capable of winning Grands Prix and the WDC, how would he do it?

Of course Lawrence funds Lance's drive, like many racing fathers. The implication which many make (or assert) that it's his prime motivation in owning Aston Martin is clearly nonsense. Lawrence bought a racing circuit whern Lance was two. Lawrence raced himself when Lance was four or five. Lawrence is a lifelong business owner and entrepreneur; running businesses is what he's always done. He's a car nut. It's what he's always been.

[jonklug]

Suspect Antonelli is gonna spank George to be honest and make it a nice and easy decision for Toto.

 

Don't know where this Antonelli hype is coming from tbh. If he spanks George then he is better than ... Lewis Hamilton. That's a pretty big ask, and looking at his F2 season - there have been good moments and quite forgettable ones. 

 

You may be right of course, I am just skeptical at the moment. Then again, I also didn't believe the Verstappen hype initially. (I tend to really dislike when youngsters get overhyped and labeled as the next F1 great before they've had their first F1 race).

 

Personally I think George will have the measure of him next year, but let's see 

[garoidb]

Of course Lawrence funds Lance's drive, like many racing fathers. The implication which many make (or assert) that it's his prime motivation in owning Aston Martin is clearly nonsense. Lawrence bought a racing circuit whern Lance was two. Lawrence raced himself when Lance was four or five. Lawrence is a lifelong business owner and entrepreneur; running businesses is what he's always done. He's a car nut. It's what he's always been.

 

If it's clearly nonsense then it is one hell of a coincidence. Of course he has been active and interested in racing for a long time, and that is inextricably linked with why Lance followed this particular path. You don't need to own and develop an F1 team for that, though. You do need to if you want to have a top level team over which you have a unique say in determining the driver line-up. 

 

For the record, I think Lance is fine for F1. This wouldn't work if he wasn't. 

[DW46]

Don't know where this Antonelli hype is coming from tbh. If he spanks George then he is better than ... Lewis Hamilton. That's a pretty big ask, and looking at his F2 season - there have been good moments and quite forgettable ones.

You may be right of course, I am just skeptical at the moment. Then again, I also didn't believe the Verstappen hype initially. (I tend to really dislike when youngsters get overhyped and labeled as the next F1 great before they've had their first F1 race).

Personally I think George will have the measure of him next year, but let's see

I tend to find if I’ve heard of someone when there 12 it means something, but just feeling no other evidence but gut.

Really looking forward to seeing it, I don’t rate Russell anywhere near prime Hamilton I reckon he’s about par with 40 yr old Hamilton.

I’m not expecting it just don’t feel youngsters need as much time to bed in as people suggest and I haven’t seen him look like a word beater since Sakhir 20.

Verstappen looked special from day one but he also is hard to measure as his only decent teammates raced him when he was at his youngest and most raw. The h2h with Sainz was telling about how good he was going to be for me.

Edited by DW46, 15 September 2024 - 10:51.

[renzmann]

One thing is for sure: Verstappen will want to switch in 2026 no matter what. RBR is falling apart on all fronts.

 

Inititally, I wondered why people were so sure he could switch in the first place, as - apparently - he was forbidden to go in 2025. Why 2026 then? I reckon Newey leaving the team and a probably terrible season 2025 with very little wins will give him some leverage though. Surely he will have some useful clauses considering the long contract he signed?

Edited by renzmann, 15 September 2024 - 14:32.

[Nathan]

Don't know where this Antonelli hype is coming from tbh.

 

Find another driver of his generation that achieved as much at his age.  Probably have to work with him too to get a true idea ;)

 

I think the other thing, we value F2 too much and it doesn't seem to provide a true reflection.

[George Costanza]

Yet equally, driver fitness levels etc have improved massively over the years. One of the side-effects of that will be that drivers can and will be able (physically) to carry on in the sport for much longer than they have done once the cars became very physical. IIRC it was Senna who started showing how driver fitness could enhance performance, and Schumacher who really took it another level.

It really was Niki Lauda and Alain Prost who started that trend of fitness.

Edited by George Costanza, 15 September 2024 - 23:52.

[George Costanza]

Unpopular opinion: I don't think ALO wins another race on merit. Respect where due, he's a good interview, I like his opinions. But he's the Brett Favre of F1.

Fernando is much better than Brett Favre. He is more like John Elway.

[DRSwing]

Unpopular opinion:  I don't think ALO wins another race on merit.  Respect where due, he's a good interview, I like his opinions.  But he's the Brett Favre of F1.

 

 

Fernando is much better than Brett Favre. He is more like John Elway.

No idea who these guys are but I am sure Alonso will still deliver if he has a competitive car.

 

Some people keep saying he has lost it but he has shown time and again this year that he can still extract the maximum out of a car,  like during this race weekend. 
 

We have seen the young hotshots like Lando throwing away a number of wins despite having the fastest car, and even Max,  the best on the grid, now not looking as perfect when his car isn’t as competitive, yet some are still harping on how the oldies have lost it when their car aren’t as competitive.

 

Age is just a number, if you are already good, you are old enough, if you are still good, you are young enough. 

[Colbul1]

Norris's first year at McLaren was a paid drive. I remember that coming out when he signed his long-term deal. Let's say after getting the cold truth from the FDA, Papa Stroll was able to have done similar, I don't think Lance would have earned his boots in a season or two in a quick car like Norris did. In a way you could say that is the opportunity he got at Williams, which was a 5th place team when he was testing and then a rookie. Really, I think Stroll had his chance to prove himself a top level talent in his first two years. As Ferrari found out/pointed out, that talent level isn't there and now at best, he can work himself into a good journeyman that could probably win the odd race while playing support driver role in a championship team Bottas/Perez style.

Lando Norris has never been a pay driver, not sure why some people persist in continuing this lie. As has been said ad nauseum, his accounts are free to view at Companies House, in 2019 he was paid 1.2 million (including points bonuses) for the season. And no, he didn't ever pay McLaren, something he has explained himself in an interview.

[Sterzo]

No idea who these guys are but I am sure Alonso will still deliver if he has a competitive car.

 

Some people keep saying he has lost it but he has shown time and again this year that he can still extract the maximum out of a car,  like during this race weekend. 
 

We have seen the young hotshots like Lando throwing away a number of wins despite having the fastest car, and even Max,  the best on the grid, now not looking as perfect when his car isn’t as competitive, yet some are still harping on how the oldies have lost it when their car aren’t as competitive.

 

Age is just a number, if you are already good, you are old enough, if you are still good, you are young enough. 

Whether it's age, or length of time in the sport, I do think drivers eventually lose their edge. The first thing to go (I suspect) is the relentless commitment which meant they would outdrive a box of nails lap after lap, race after race. Maybe after a decade or two you can still rise to the real opportunities, but when the car is hopeless it's more difficult to give it your all. Alonso and Hamilton both look as though they are possibly in this phase.

[Beri]

Lando Norris has never been a pay driver, not sure why some people persist in continuing this lie. As has been said ad nauseum, his accounts are free to view at Companies House, in 2019 he was paid 1.2 million (including points bonuses) for the season. And no, he didn't ever pay McLaren, something he has explained himself in an interview.

 

Yeah well, Latifi was on the paylist at Williams for a million per annum. So this doesnt mean a thing. You can be a paydriver and still get paid. Ask Lance Stroll. He was paid 1.8 million in 2018.

[GhostR]

Yeah well, Latifi was on the paylist at Williams for a million per annum. So this doesnt mean a thing. You can be a paydriver and still get paid. Ask Lance Stroll. He was paid 1.8 million in 2018.

 

Yup, you can't just look at the direct team <-> driver money flows. If a driver brings a big sponsorship package, it's likely they still get paid a salary direct from the team. It's just the source of the money that the team uses to pay the driver is via sponsors they otherwise would not have had.

 

But I think in the case of Norris ... he was a contracted McLaren junior before he was promoted to race driver. Even if he brought a sponsors package that was worth more than his salary, McLaren placed him at the team due to performance, not money. Pretty sure Alonso has, for parts of his career, had sponsors follow him around who pay more into the team than the team pays out to Alonso.

[DJH63]

Lando Norris has never been a pay driver, not sure why some people persist in continuing this lie. As has been said ad nauseum, his accounts are free to view at Companies House, in 2019 he was paid 1.2 million (including points bonuses) for the season. And no, he didn't ever pay McLaren, something he has explained himself in an interview.

You’ve made the mistake of thinking ‘pay drivers’ don’t get a salary, whereas in reality they get paid out of the funding they bring to the team.

[messy]

Don't know where this Antonelli hype is coming from tbh. If he spanks George then he is better than ... Lewis Hamilton. That's a pretty big ask, and looking at his F2 season - there have been good moments and quite forgettable ones.

You may be right of course, I am just skeptical at the moment. Then again, I also didn't believe the Verstappen hype initially. (I tend to really dislike when youngsters get overhyped and labeled as the next F1 great before they've had their first F1 race).

Personally I think George will have the measure of him next year, but let's see

It'll be interesting. Historically whenever this kind of thing happens - a Lewis Hamilton, Max Verstappen or even Kimi Raikkonen or Jenson Button gets promoted surprisingly into such a high profile role at such a young age, they do well, don't they? Every time. Because these are the exceptions for a reason.

So I expect Antonelli to also do well. Because that's how it works. All I'd say is that if it doesn't, I'm really not sure what happens from there because that's unchartered territory for the 'young whizzkid gets top F1 drive, still in nappies" narrative. Am I totally convinced by what I've seen from Antonelli? Not sure. I'm not not impressed, put it that way - but this is a gamble, no doubt.

Edited by messy, Yesterday, 14:01.

[KWSN - DSM]

They are all 'pay drivers' - When a Spanish company move along with a Spanish driver, it may be glossed over in various PR, marketing mumbo jumbo, the team would most times have hired the Spanish driver anyway, but Spanish money follow a Spanish driver and pay part of the expense of paying said Spanish driver.

 

That is what a 'pay driver' for the most part is, there are very few drivers employed entirely through the money they bring along in sponsorship.

[sterlingfan2000]

Jos Verstappen has agreement with Mercedes for 2026 , because they know , Mercedes Engine is overpowered. Jo's asked that Mercedes declare Verstappen to be the nr.1 Driver and no strong driver next to him, Russel will leave Mercedes, The Driving pairing will be Antonelli and Verstappen no matter how bad Antonelli performs.

The Current Rumours

Edited by sterlingfan2000, Yesterday, 19:23.

[garoidb]

Jos Verstappen has agreement with Mercedes for 2026 , because they know , Mercedes Engine is overpowered. Jo's asked that Mercedes declare Verstappen to be the nr.1 Driver and no strong driver next to him, Russel will leave Mercedes, The Driving pairing will be Antonelli and Verstappen no matter how bad Antonelli performs.

The Current Rumours

 

You mean they have signed Jos but think they have signed Max? 

[Yoshi]

Jos Verstappen has agreement with Mercedes for 2026 , because they know , Mercedes Engine is overpowered. Jo's asked that Mercedes declare Verstappen to be the nr.1 Driver and no strong driver next to him, Russel will leave Mercedes, The Driving pairing will be Antonelli and Verstappen no matter how bad Antonelli performs.

The Current Rumours

Seems like its coming from F1insider based on X.

[balage06]

Jos Verstappen has agreement with Mercedes for 2026 , because they know , Mercedes Engine is overpowered. Jos asked that Mercedes declare Verstappen to be the nr.1 Driver and no strong driver next to him, Russel will leave Mercedes, The Driving pairing will be Antonelli and Verstappen no matter how bad Antonelli performs.

 

[Beri]

Jos Verstappen has agreement with Mercedes for 2026 , because they know , Mercedes Engine is overpowered. Jo's asked that Mercedes declare Verstappen to be the nr.1 Driver and no strong driver next to him, Russel will leave Mercedes, The Driving pairing will be Antonelli and Verstappen no matter how bad Antonelli performs.
The Current Rumours

These are the rumors who are getting traction indeed.

Coincidentally my scenario that I have been advocating since some months now. A scenario that can only be "ruined" if Aston Martin steps in.

[Racer3000]

What if Antonelli destroys Russell in 2025? Will they demand Mercedes to keep Russell and fire Antonelli? I doubt Mercedes would do it.

[BRG]

I would file these rumours alongside the Newey to Ferrari rumours.

[Beri]

 

What if Antonelli destroys Russell in 2025? Will they demand Mercedes to keep Russell and fire Antonelli? I doubt Mercedes would do it.

 

 

What is your point about?

[Gambelli]

We shall see, it’s one of the most interesting battles next year.

 

If George does cop a beating he might end up fighting with Oscar over a #1 drive down the other end of the pits at Audi for 2026!

[Gambelli]

Jos Verstappen has agreement with Mercedes for 2026 , because they know , Mercedes Engine is overpowered. Jo's asked that Mercedes declare Verstappen to be the nr.1 Driver and no strong driver next to him, Russel will leave Mercedes, The Driving pairing will be Antonelli and Verstappen no matter how bad Antonelli performs.

The Current Rumours

 

What I'm getting from this wording, is that Jos has got the drive, but has insisted that they don't hire Max next to him, and instead keep Antionelli.

 

So, a Verstappen at Red Bull and Mercedes, will they then be JVE and MVE on the timing screen?

[jonklug]

Jos Verstappen has agreement with Mercedes for 2026 , because they know , Mercedes Engine is overpowered. Jo's asked that Mercedes declare Verstappen to be the nr.1 Driver and no strong driver next to him, Russel will leave Mercedes, The Driving pairing will be Antonelli and Verstappen no matter how bad Antonelli performs.

The Current Rumours

 

'The Current Rumours' is quite a trustworthy publication, it's settled for me then. 

[Racer3000]

What is your point about?

 

My point is that if Antonelli destroys Russell he will prove to be a very strong driver, something that, according to the rumour posted above, Jos doesn't want Max to have next to him at Mercedes. So I wonder what Mercedes would do. My guess is that if Antonelli really impresses, they will just forget about Max. 

[IrvTheSwerve]

My point is that if Antonelli destroys Russell he will prove to be a very strong driver, something that, according to the rumour posted above, Jos doesn't want Max to have next to him at Mercedes. So I wonder what Mercedes would do. My guess is that if Antonelli really impresses, they will just forget about Max. 

Let’s see Kimi drive in a single Grand Prix first before talk of him destroying the very quick and capable George Russell, shall we?

 

If Merc have agreed to dump Russell without Kimi even starting his F1 career yet, that would be idiotic. The hype is mental.

[Racer3000]

Let’s see Kimi drive in a single Grand Prix first before talk of him destroying the very quick and capable George Russell, shall we?

 

If Merc have agreed to dump Russell without Kimi even starting his F1 career yet, that would be idiotic. The hype is mental.

 

I said IF. We're talking about an hypothesis. But personally, yes, I think Antonelli has more potential as a driver than Russell.

[ARTGP]

This is one of the reasons why it's natural for Verstappen to leave Red Bull soon. He will have already stayed longer than Schumacher at Ferrari and approaching Hamilton's stint at Mercedes. Lengthy team stays are an exception, not the norm. Everyone eventually tires of doing the same thing over and over again.  

 

Edited by ARTGP, Today, 18:44.

[Racer3000]

My guess is that he will drive for AM in 2026. He will have Newey again there working with him, plus a much weaker teammate than the one he would have to face at Mercedes.

[BRG]

But personally, yes, I think Antonelli has more potential as a driver than Russell.

Based on what exactly?  He won some karting titles (so did George) and some F4 titles (so did George).

 

Russell then won GP3 and F2 at his first attempt.

 

Kimi might finish 5th or 6th in F2 this year, if he is lucky.

 

Basically, George Russell is going to wipe the floor with the rookie in  2025.

[Racer3000]

Based on what exactly?  

 

On my personal perception of watching both of them in F1 feeder series.