60 replies to this topic

[Pullman99]

Knowing that many of this Forum's readers and contributors share an interest in other forms of transport, I thought that it would be helpful to highlight a forthcoming talk at Beaulieu by Anthony Coulls, the Senior Curator of Rail Transport and Technology at the National Railway Museum at York.    The event, on Saturday 19th October, is called  "Flying Scotsman - Restoring an Icon" and is part of the National Motor Museum's Autumn series of Transport Torques organised for the Friends of the museum.

 

Between 2006 and 2016, the National Railway Museum took on one of the longest and most complicated restoration projects in transport history, when it brought the iconic Flying Scotsman back into running service. Anthony Coulls will share the story of this project, its successes, its challenges - including its many controversies - and the tremendous impact its legacy has had upon the Museum.

 

The National Motor Museum is making significant progress with the restoration of its "icon", the Sunbeam 1000HP land speed record car of Henry Segrave and there are some parallels with the Flying Scotsman story as both captured headlines in period and both are flagship exhibits for their respective museums.   The Sunbeam is currently awaiting the installation of new gearbox bearings prior to the unit being refitted in the chassis.   Much of the restoration work is n=being carried out in public view and the major work on the rear engine continues apace with the aim of bench testing in the coming months.

 

Tickets for the Flying Scotsman Transport Torque are £7.50 for Friends of the National Motor Museum and £15.00 for non-members with all proceeds going directly to the museum (a charitable trust) to benefit its many projects.    The event is held in the National Motor Museum's Collections Centre theatre and begins at 7pm and the doors will open from 6.00pm.   Please see the link below for more details

 

https://www.beaulieu...nsport-torques/

Edited by Pullman99, 11 September 2024 - 09:32.

[pete53]

I went to the Bluebell Railway in Sussex last year to see the Flying Scotsman when it was on tour. It does have a fascinating history as much with regard to its post British Rail/LNER days as to when it was in public service.

 

There is a BBC 4 documentary about the locomotive, The Return of the Flying Scotsman, which was last shown in 2020, but unfortunately is not currently available for viewing. Particularly of interest were its tours of the USA/Canada and Australia which presented many logistical and financial challenges. The US/Canada tour bankrupted owner Alan Pegler. But for the intervention of William McAlpine, who agreed to pay off debts incurred, and finance its return journey, it could so easily have ended up rusting away in a siding on the other side of the Atlantic, or worse still, ended up in a breaker's yard.

[Ray Bell]

As mentioned, all around the world there is a fascination with these things...

 

A little local effort here...

 

 

...which I think is the same one which sometimes runs past my home. The occasion here was a celebration relating to the centenary of the final Cobb & Co stage coach run, which took place on the Darling Downs a few weeks ago. As a part of it all they took this steam loco with a few period carriages out to Miles and Tara to show what put the stage coaches to bed.

 

A poor pic, perhaps, but I just happened to be driving by as it returned to Toowoomba, this event had seen it go further West than it had in forty or fifty years.

[Sterzo]

There is a BBC 4 documentary about the locomotive, The Return of the Flying Scotsman, which was last shown in 2020, but unfortunately is not currently available for viewing.

There's actually a copy on YouTube currently:

 

[Odseybod]

Just to uphold TNF pedantry standards, might mention that the locomotive's name is just Flying Scotsman, whereas the train it sometimes hauled is The Flying Scotsman.

 

Slightly alarmed that no one beat me to it on this - are we on a Slippery Slope? Next thing you know, people won't be donning a tie before they log on ...

[Alan Lewis]

Ties, Grandad?

Just be grateful we're wearing trousers.

😁

[Ray Bell]

My tie is at the ready...

 

 

I think I have six or seven with me for this trip. Only one vest, however.

[Odseybod]

That tie looks more like a jumper, Ray.

[Myhinpaa]

Two petitions started for bringing her back to its proper LNER livery with the iconic number "4472"

 

Amazingly, very few have signed.

 

https://www.change.o...ocation=search 

 

https://www.change.o...location=search

 

 

[Odseybod]

Will they also want to remove the ugly German-style smoke deflectors from either side of the boiler, even though it would result in the footplate crew having a more obscured view of approaching signals? On the other hand, that would be more in keeping with the LNER livery and numbering they seem so keen on.

 

Perhaps this should be in the thread about Goodwood and the Duke - similar problem.

[BRG]

They repaint preserved locomotives all the time into different liveries.  Not sure why anyone should need to raise petitions about it.

[pete53]

They repaint preserved locomotives all the time into different liveries.  Not sure why anyone should need to raise petitions about it.

Anyone for wartime black livery?

[Odseybod]

Way back in 2022 ...

 

 

[Myhinpaa]

They repaint preserved locomotives all the time into different liveries.  Not sure why anyone should need to raise petitions about it.

 

Some background to why LNER livery is wanted by many enthusiasts: https://thecreativit...to-lner-livery/

 

Edited by Myhinpaa, 12 September 2024 - 19:27.

[pete53]

Some background to why LNER livery is wanted by many enthusiasts: https://thecreativit...to-lner-livery/

 

My own feelings with regard to restoring the loco to LNER livery are, to a degree, ambivalent. Perhaps if the loco had been decked out in the colours of a sponsor I would indeed have been aggrieved. But I guess it's down to the difference between the hardcore enthusiast and the more general admirer of the steam age who just appreciate the engineering marvel and beauty of these locomotives. As I mentioned earlier, I went to see Flying Scotsman on its visit to the Bluebell Railway last year. I would suggest that majority of those around me would have only had a limited knowledge of its past, and mostly would have been totally unaware of BR's dismissive attitude to it. 

 

I wonder how much a repaint would cost? Huge sums have been spent on maintaining Flying Scotsman in running order and perhaps, at the moment, funds could be spent better elsewhere.

[BRG]

Repainting costs very little in the greater scheme of things and is done quite often to keep a preserved locomotive looking well-maintained.  It will be allowed for in the on-going maintenance budget that the NRM will have prepared.  Yes, it should be in LNER livery sometimes, and in BR liveries at others.  Just not something to get all agitated about or worth starting petitions over.

[Alan Baker]

LNER livery with the smoke deflectors would be incorrect as they were added by BR. If they were removed no doubt the regulators (the Office for Rail and Road or whatever it's called) would complain about driver visiblity. Their latest wheeze is to insist that Avanti West Coast's new non-tilting trains should be fitted with tilting train speed sensors.

[Odseybod]

For the sake of completeness, here's Flying Scotsman being BR loco 60103. Looks pretty good in either form, I'd say, though better not upset the purists by asking how much of the mechanism started life with this loco, rather than with one of her sisters - a lot of major surgery has taken place over the years ...

 

 

 

[RCH]

Being my normal cynical self I cannot understand why people get so excited about Flying Scotsman. Yes it is a fine example of great engineering and better preserved than scrapped but it's hardly alone in this respect. And as all us West Country folk know it was not the first locomotive to exceed 100mph. That was City of Truro way back in 1904. 

[Vitesse2]

I think most people who have at least a passing interest in railway history would be able to name Flying Scotsman when asked about the number 4472. 60103 OTOH ...

 

But of course, in terms of strict historical accuracy, if restored to LNER spec - as under Pegler's ownership - then the smoke deflectors would have to go.

[Pullman99]

I think most people who have at least a passing interest in railway history would be able to name Flying Scotsman when asked about the number 4472. 60103 OTOH ...

 

But of course, in terms of strict historical accuracy, if restored to LNER spec - as under Pegler's ownership - then the smoke deflectors would have to go.

 

 

What have I started?!!!

 

As noted, livery changes for locomotives is certain to generate a debate or two.   This is a recent You Tube piece from the Mid Hants Railway (The Watercress Line):

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=w7HOOMNDeH0

 

I think that the principal reason for staying with the BR double chimney and smoke deflectors on Flying Scotsman during its most recent rebuild is that it was always intended to operate the locomotive on railtours and that its "as withdrawn" condition would have significant benefits in operation.   Also, to be strictly accurate to LNER livery would require a return to the earlier single chimney configuration.   The locomotive ran for many years prior to the NRM acquisition with an A4 boiler but was rebuilt with the long-held spare A3 (from Salmon Trout, I believe).

[BRG]

And as all us West Country folk know it was not the first locomotive to exceed 100mph. That was City of Truro way back in 1904. 

Allegedly.  According to GWR's publicity folk and with no independent evidence.  Now considered to be a bit of a dubious claim

 

I think most people who have at least a passing interest in railway history would be able to name Flying Scotsman when asked about the number 4472. 60103 OTOH ...

I rather suspect anyone with a passing interest in the subject would recognise both the Scotsman and Tornado.

[Myhinpaa]

Without Alan Pegler there would be no Flying Scotsman at all, British Railways wanted to send her to the scrapheap to be cut up.

He decided to put her back to LNER livery, but decided against undoing all the comprehensive modifications that had been done since she ran in LMER livery.

The greatest years in the career of the locomotive . when she gained such fame - was in LNER livery, most models available is also in that livery.

 

Thre's no doubt what livery her saviour, Alan Pegler, would have wanted her to be in. Which would carry some weight among sentimental souls...

 

Again, from this article: https://thecreativit...to-lner-livery/

 

"Alan Pegler’s first move was to rid Flying Scotsman of the livery of the company who almost gave her to the cutter’s torch and back into her original LNER livery! It was a new start for Scotsman but her relationship with BR was not over...."

 

A quote from the railway museum's  own blog: https://blog.railway...lying-scotsman/

 

-Arguably, it is Alan Pegler’s restoration of Flying Scotsman to single chimney form, LNER colours and the number 4472 in 1963 that has perhaps most deeply ingrained the image of the locomotive on the national consciousness. But not was all as it seemed. Pegler himself said that to restore the engine to her original condition was “out of the question” so he settled for a compromise appearance of what he called “a typical LNER A3 of the 1930s”

 

 

 

 

[70JesperOH]

Jeremy Clarkson was a fireman in a Flying Scotsman locomotive sometime in the 2000s https://www.google.c...YFKXqVFPYo,st:0

 

Was this the one?

 

Jesper

Edited by 70JesperOH, 13 September 2024 - 16:11.

[Odseybod]

That was on 60163 Tornado - a late-production version of the Peppercorn A1 Pacific loco, designed about 25 years after Flying Scotsman. Finished in 2008, Tornado is just emerging from a lengthy overhaul after 14 years service, during which it became the first preserved steam loco to crack 100 mph.

[70JesperOH]

That was on 60163 Tornado - a late-production version of the Peppercorn A1 Pacific loco, designed about 25 years after Flying Scotsman. Finished in 2008, Tornado is just emerging from a lengthy overhaul after 14 years service, during which it became the first preserved steam loco to crack 100 mph.

 

Ah, and now remembering that the Top Gear episode was about transport from London to Glasgow by 1949 standards in the speediest of time. By then the train would have a calculated time, but James May in a Jaguar XK120 as the fastest road car and Richard Hammond on a Vincent Black Hawk (?)

Meaning that the Flying Scotsman of this thread would have been a 1920s machine?

 

Jesper

[Vitesse2]

Ah, and now remembering that the Top Gear episode was about transport from London to Glasgow by 1949 standards in the speediest of time. By then the train would have a calculated time, but James May in a Jaguar XK120 as the fastest road car and Richard Hammond on a Vincent Black Hawk (?)

Meaning that the Flying Scotsman of this thread would have been a 1920s machine?

 

Jesper

Yes, built in 1923 as an A1 Pacific and later rebuilt to the A3 class design. The named LNER service 'The Flying Scotsman' - 10.00 from London King's Cross to Edinburgh Waverley - is the origin of the name. Flying Scotsman was the first locomotive to haul it non-stop, having been fitted with an innovative corridor tender; previously they had changed crews at (IIRC) York, but from the introduction of the new tenders, the relief crew travelled in the front coach and they changed over 'on the move'. Reputedly, Nigel Gresley perfected the design by using his dining chairs to work out how narrow he could make the corridor!

[Myhinpaa]

Top Gear Season 13, Episode, aired first on 21st of June 2009.

 

The motorbike is a '52 (Series C) Vincent Black Shadow, which is a high performance version of the 1000cc Rapide.

 

https://www.bbc.co.u...es-13-episode-1

 

https://www.youtube....channel=BlueYNC

[Lee Nicolle]

Ah, and now remembering that the Top Gear episode was about transport from London to Glasgow by 1949 standards in the speediest of time. By then the train would have a calculated time, but James May in a Jaguar XK120 as the fastest road car and Richard Hammond on a Vincent Black Hawk (?)

Meaning that the Flying Scotsman of this thread would have been a 1920s machine?

 

Jesper

Vincent Black Shadow

[BRG]

And of curse, James May (XK) arrived first and in good order, whilst Clarkson (Tornado) was second, filthy and exhausted, and Hammond (Vincent) got soaked in the rain, broke down and was generally in a sorry state.  Not sure if he ever made it to Edinburgh?  

 

Although being a passenger on the train would probably have been the most enjoyable and restful way to reach the Athens of the North.

[RCH]

Allegedly.  According to GWR's publicity folk and with no independent evidence.  Now considered to be a bit of a dubious claim

 

Hmmm, long time since I read the story but as I recall it has more to do with the advance of the methods of timing than the accuracy of the timing itself....

 

I will admit to a certain bias, my Great Uncle was a GWR engine driver around the time and a number of other relatives worked for God's Wonderful Railway. 

Edited by RCH, 14 September 2024 - 10:25.

[Odseybod]

Hmmm, long time since I read the story but as I recall it has more to do with the advance of the methods of timing than the accuracy of the timing itself....

 

I will admit to a certain bias, my Great Uncle was a GWR engine driver around the time and a number of other relatives worked for God's Wonderful Railway. 

Should never have got rid of the Broad Gauge - the others would have seen the light (eventually).

[Ray Bell]

At least Victoria still has it...

 

Except, of course, where interstate trains cross the border.

[Vitesse2]

At least Victoria still has it...

Nowhere near, Ray! While it's wider than standard gauge, Victoria uses what is generally referred to as 'Irish gauge' - 5 ft 3 in - whereas Brunel's broad gauge as used on the GWR was 7 ft 1⁄4 in. Irish gauge is also used in Brazil - and Ireland, obviously!

 

... God's Wonderful Railway. 

aka the Great Way Round ...
 

[Ray Bell]

That's something I never knew (which puts it into a popular category)...

 

In sunny Queensland and most of South Australia they went the other way, 3' 6". But again, the intrusion of Commonwealth Railways means that main lines criss-crossing the place, like the Sydney-Perth line and the line from SA up to Darwin are standard gauge.

[RCH]

Should never have got rid of the Broad Gauge - the others would have seen the light (eventually).

Should have persisted with the Atmospheric Railway as well...

[Alan Baker]

That's something I never knew (which puts it into a popular category)...

 

In sunny Queensland and most of South Australia they went the other way, 3' 6". But again, the intrusion of Commonwealth Railways means that main lines criss-crossing the place, like the Sydney-Perth line and the line from SA up to Darwin are standard gauge.

New South Wales also went for standard gauge. Australia must be the only country in the world running large scale passenger services on three gauges (not including odd branch lines or preserved railways).

[Ray Bell]

There once was a 5' 3" line from Melbourne to Adelaide...

 

And the standard gauge line that crossed the Nullarbor originated in South Australia, I think at Port Augusta.

 

The Ghan line North, and other local lines were 3' 6".

 

So at that time South Australia had three gauges within its boundaries.

 

Queensland Rail makes quite a thing of its ability to run classy express and tourist services on its 3' 6" lines, also including a 'tilt train' in its inventory. There's certainly no question that they can carry huge tonnages, 100-car coal trains running day and night on some of the lines heading towards the coast.

 

The proposed 'Inland Rail' to link Brisbane to Melbourne (in particular via Parkes in NSW) will introduce another standard gauge line to Queensland, it will form a part of a huge freight network which enables ships to disgorge at Darwin irrespective of where their cargo has to go. Double-stacked container trains 3kms long take the cargo to Port Augusta, where freight for Adelaide or Perth is broken off.

 

From there they head to Parkes, where they have to be reduced to single height due to bridges and tunnels between there and Sydney. Brisbane and Melbourne containers will be broken off there to go to their destinations.

[BRG]

Should have persisted with the Atmospheric Railway as well...

The rats that enjoyed feasting on the leather seals would agree, I am sure!

 

New South Wales also went for standard gauge. Australia must be the only country in the world running large scale passenger services on three gauges (not including odd branch lines or preserved railways).

India has a huge network of 5ft 6in (1676mm)  whilst urban transit railways are standard gauge.  There are also metre gauge, 2ft 6in and 2ft narrow gauge railways although perhaps not really large scale.

 

(Note: I am struggling to spell guage...sorry gauge.. correctly.  When we were rallying a Darrian, it did not have a fuel gauge so somebody (not me!) made up a graduated wooden stick to dip in each of the two fuel tanks.  He wrote "Fuel Guage" on it in large letters and we never let him forget it)

Edited by BRG, 15 September 2024 - 18:41.

[Vitesse2]

The rats that enjoyed feasting on the leather seals would agree, I am sure!

Something of a myth, that. While dead rats were flushed out of the tubes it's generally considered that the degradation of the leather seals was due to the weather and salt water in particular - the section of track which was originally the 'Atmospheric' includes the long stretch right on the coast through Dawlish. As the author of this page points out, if rats eating tallow had been identified as the cause, then they'd simply have added arsenic to it 'in accordance with the general Victorian love of putting arsenic in bleeding well anything on the slightest excuse'!

 

http://pigeonsnest.c...on-railway.html

[Odseybod]

Back to Australian railways. I think I read/heard somewhere that on one of the lines from a big mine somewhere in the outback (iron ore, maybe?), the huge trains are computer controlled, with no humans on board. Railways unions must be very docile to tolerate that - but this may be Old News, as I think they've had one or two spectacular runaways in the past year or so. Ray will no doubt put me right.

[GreenMachine]

Correct - 'driven' from Perth.  Don't know about runaways, but there have been crashes, I think the drivers were distracted by the barista's latte art ... 

[Ray Bell]

Let's not forget the abundance of cane railways in Queensland and NSW...

 

I think they're 2' gauge.

 

And I know nothing of automation in WA.

[BRG]

And I know nothing of automation in WA.

Here you go, Ray...

[RCH]

Something of a myth, that. While dead rats were flushed out of the tubes it's generally considered that the degradation of the leather seals was due to the weather and salt water in particular - the section of track which was originally the 'Atmospheric' includes the long stretch right on the coast through Dawlish. As the author of this page points out, if rats eating tallow had been identified as the cause, then they'd simply have added arsenic to it 'in accordance with the general Victorian love of putting arsenic in bleeding well anything on the slightest excuse'!

 

http://pigeonsnest.c...on-railway.html

As they say you learn something new everyday. I grew up in Dawlish and travelled that notorious stretch of railway to and from school every day. Not the atmospheric of course but occasionally steam hauled when the diesel multiple units objected to being smothered in sea water. I was taught that the intention was that the atmospheric railway would run from Exeter to Newton Abbot only, part of the reason being that the good folk of Dawlish objected to the idea of steam and smoke obliterating their sea view. Yet the author of this piece speaks of the difficulty of extending the line to Plymouth. Oh and yes we were taught at primary school that rats chewing the leather was the primary cause of failure, but as you say this has long since been debunked.

Back to broad gauge for a while. I have only recently learned that the route from Dawlish to Teignmouth was only a single line until after the standard gauge was installed. As a gullible youth I was told that it was perfectly "safe" for us to walk through the tunnels to our favourite barbecue spot because the tunnels had been built wide enough to allow two broad gauge lines. 

[Vitesse2]

It was only built and operated as far as Newton Abbot, but the original intention was certainly that it should reach Plymouth. A pumping station was built at Totnes, but the equipment was never installed, as it was realised that - contrary to earlier expectations - steam locomotives would be able to cope with the hills. The Totnes, Torre and Starcross pumping stations are the only survivors.

 

https://www.national...pumping-station

[RCH]

It was only built and operated as far as Newton Abbot, but the original intention was certainly that it should reach Plymouth. A pumping station was built at Totnes, but the equipment was never installed, as it was realised that - contrary to earlier expectations - steam locomotives would be able to cope with the hills. The Totnes, Torre and Starcross pumping stations are the only survivors.

 

https://www.national...pumping-station

So, there were plans to take the atmospheric railway to Torquay as well, hence the pumping station at Torre. Part of the Dawlish pumping station remained in the goods yard in my day but that has all gone now.

[BRG]

So, there were plans to take the atmospheric railway to Torquay as well, hence the pumping station at Torre. Part of the Dawlish pumping station remained in the goods yard in my day but that has all gone now.

Whilst the basic principle of the atmospheric railway was sound, I wonder how they proposed to deal with junctions, such as a branch to Torquay.  It would need a rather cumbersome arrangement - you need to maintain the vacuum to propel the train and any sort of break in the pipe at a turn-out would be a problem.  Although I dare say Mr Brunel had a solution.

[2F-001]

The Crystal Palace also had an experimental atmospheric railway.

[RCH]

Whilst the basic principle of the atmospheric railway was sound, I wonder how they proposed to deal with junctions, such as a branch to Torquay.  It would need a rather cumbersome arrangement - you need to maintain the vacuum to propel the train and any sort of break in the pipe at a turn-out would be a problem.  Although I dare say Mr Brunel had a solution.

If you read the links Vitesse has provided there is a description of a very cumbersome level crossing which I suspect never happened. At the time there would have been no need for a level crossing between Exeter and Newton Abbot since the track ran along the Exe and Teign estuaries and along the coast, crossing on foot would have been adequate. I believe there was a small bore take off by pass for the vacuum which would have maintained the vacuum for the train to coast over points although I suspect this would have added considerably to the difficulties of maintaining a suitable vacuum. The branch was intended to terminate at what is now Torre station. Presumably the train would have coasted or been horse/labourer drawn onto the branch and then picked up a new vacuum tube evacuated by the pumping station at Torre.