45 replies to this topic

[Flyingfinn]

The last great driver to come out of the Red Bull stable is Max Verstappen, in the year of 2015 (Arguably Sainz too, but he left the programme after joining F1). Since then, lets look at the super rookies who have joined F1 but are not part of the RB programme: 1. Charles Leclerc (Ferrari) 2. Lando Norris (Mclaren) 3. Oscar Pastri (Alpine) 4. George Russell (Mercedes) 5. Ollie Bearman (Ferrari) 6. Andrea Kimi Antonelli (Mercedes) 7. Franco Calapinto (Williams) Marko and RB, who pride themselves for having an eye for talent like no other, have not been able to produce a credible talent pool after 2015. Tsunoda and Lawson, while good, are not better than most of the rookies out there. Lets debate.

[Bendo]

Its delivered nothing for years, despite having a team to give the talent a spot to.

Quite what Marko does besides spout a load of nonsense is beyond me.

[Risil]

Was Max a Red Bull driver pre-F1? I have a photo I took of him in his first F3 weekend, no Red Bull stickers to be seen on his car.

[mclarensmps]

I think a a whole the Red Bull academy has filtered enough drivers into F1 as a whole to say it's a success. It may not provide championship material all the time, but it is providing young drivers the support they need, moreso than other academies. I think Alpine/Renault are the only other significant academy, and Mercedes are only now starting to throw their weight behind some drivers again (which they hadn't really done since the McLaren days, really)

[Jellyfishcake]

Personally I don't count on Verstappen being a Red Bull Jr driver.

He only appeared in F3 in Red Bull colours after signing an F1 deal for the following year.

 

So he's not really a product of their academy 

[Bleu]

Based on their F1 achievements I don't think you can put Bearman, Colapinto and Antonelli above Lawson so far.

[Flyingfinn]

Based on their F1 achievements I don't think you can put Bearman, Colapinto and Antonelli above Lawson so far.

 

I would put them as equals, though I have a feeling that Lawson is not on par with them (but thats jut my personal bias).

[SophieB]

For the debate, who are the drivers who went through it?
 

From memory, and I might have some of these wrong:

 

Christijan Albers (?)

Seb Vettel

Jaime Alguersuari

Sebastien Buemi

Alexander Albon

Daniil Kvyat

 

I’m sure I am including some who shouldn’t be there but maybe also missing others?

[Risil]

Pierre Gasly I think?

Ricciardo and Jean-Eric Vergne did too, I'm reasonably sure.

[Bendo]

If it wasn't a failure, Danny Ric wouldn't be driving an RB, let alone have been considered for the Red Bull seat. It's as simple as that.

[Nathan]

Max wasn't a Red Bull development driver, so you have to go back further.

[Flyingfinn]

If it wasn't a failure, Danny Ric wouldn't be driving an RB, let alone have been considered for the Red Bull seat. It's as simple as that.

 

But he joined RB before Max. Since Max ( people debate whether even Max is part of the program) we havent seen any great talent emerge. Gasly and Albon are decent, but nothing special ( to quote Volves)

[Risil]

Just to be clear Vowles didn't say that about his current star driver

[renzmann]

In don't think we can consider the last two years, as Horner has pretty much trumped Marko on all drivers' decisions. It's true, after Verstappen, there hasn't been much though. Albon does a good job. That's about it.

 

I would count Verstappen as an RBR junior though. He might not have been in their program, but Marko made Verstappen who he is today. Maybe his influence even has to be rated higher than Jos's.

[Flyingfinn]

Just to be clear Vowles didn't say that about his current star driver

 

He didnt, but I took the liberty to use his phrase.

[DJH63]

But he joined RB before Max. Since Max ( people debate whether even Max is part of the program) we havent seen any great talent emerge. Gasly and Albon are decent, but nothing special ( to quote Volves)

I mean what great talent have we seen emerge anywhere since Verstappen? He’s the gold standard.

 

As to the question at hand, RB are still bringing through good to very good drivers, their issue right now is that Horner waged a civil war and is keeping 2x mid 30 drivers in seats young drivers could have.

[renzmann]

BTW, there have been great talents on the grid since Verstappen, of course. I wonder whether Verstappen's success might be a reason for them to chose for another team. Don't want to say Norris was afraid of Verstappen (especially not today...), but it might be favorable for a young driver to go to a team that is still waiting for a golden boy. I remember Marko stating several times he saw Norris's talent early on, but couldn't convince him to switch to the RBR program.

[TheFish]

Albon wasn't a RB junior was he? I remember he was signed for Formula E before he ended up getting the call for Toro Rosso

[Flyingfinn]

I mean what great talent have we seen emerge anywhere since Verstappen? He’s the gold standard.

 

As to the question at hand, RB are still bringing through good to very good drivers, their issue right now is that Horner waged a civil war and is keeping 2x mid 30 drivers in seats young drivers could have.

 

Both Lando and Oscar are Max beaters. Russell on his day too. Thats 3 top drivers that RB didnt manage to bring in. And I feel Antonelli will be the 4th one. Oh and who can forget Charles.

[DJH63]

Both Lando and Oscar are Max beaters. Russell on his day too. Thats 3 top drivers that RB didnt manage to bring in. And I feel Antonelli will be the 4th one. Oh and who can forget Charles.

I mean the fact that your argument is predicated on the claim that 5 drivers patently not as good as Verstappen are better drivers that RB have missed out on kind of answers the question…..

[Bendo]

But he joined RB before Max.

Sorry, the point I was making was that if the programme was any good, Danny Ric wouldn't have been brought back into the Red Bull fold. After his dismal showing for Mclaren, he has no place in F1.

[renzmann]

Both Lando and Oscar are Max beaters. Russell on his day too. Thats 3 top drivers that RB didnt manage to bring in. And I feel Antonelli will be the 4th one. Oh and who can forget Charles.

I knew this thread was going this direction quickly  

[Bendo]

Albon wasn't a RB junior was he? I remember he was signed for Formula E before he ended up getting the call for Toro Rosso

Yep. And he has a kid in his second race pretty much on his pace already.

[F1matt]

Have any driver academy programs produced a world champion yet? 

[Brawn BGP 001]

Was Max a Red Bull driver pre-F1? I have a photo I took of him in his first F3 weekend, no Red Bull stickers to be seen on his car.

Think he got the Red Bull stickers on his F3 car only when he signed to Toro Rosso for 2015. I know Merc were very interested in him but had no F1 seat at the time.

[TheFish]

Have any driver academy programs produced a world champion yet? 

[DJH63]

Have any driver academy programs produced a world champion yet? 

I mean Vettel is the definition right? Came through the junior series with RB, was loaned to BMW, drove for the junior team then won the title with the senior team

[F1matt]

 

 

I was thinking of Lewis Hamilton but it wasn't really a driver program, it was more of a Ron Dennis project wasn't it?

[F1matt]

I mean Vettel is the definition right? Came through the junior series with RB, was loaned to BMW, drove for the junior team then won the title with the senior team

 

I couldn't remember if he was a BMW driver or an RB driver. 

[rocque]

It always has been. They took Vettel from the outside, but he was overrated anyway. Max Verstappen owes everything to his father. He wasn't climbing feeder series ladder under their brand, so he also isn't product of their junior programme.

[Nathan]

When it comes to drivers academy's, do the privateers count?  The Robertson's made champions out of Kimi and Jensen.

[BRG]

Red Bull have taken a scatter-shot approach.  In F3 and F2 there seem to be half a dozen RB drivers at any one time, most of which get dumped.  It looks like quantity rather quality and fingers crossed that one or two turn out to be OK..  I reckon I could manage that Helmut!

 

I note that Scott Speed has not been mentioned.

[ClubmanGT]

I would put them as equals, though I have a feeling that Lawson is not on par with them (but thats jut my personal bias).

 

Lawson almost won the DTM on the first hop. He's something different altogether. The potential is there for him to be a racer's racer, more akin to Alonso. He also does not have the European hype machine behind him like Antonelli or other such drivers. 

 

Why don't we wait until they're all actually on the grid together before getting carried away with this?

Edited by ClubmanGT, 15 September 2024 - 18:29.

[Gareth]

I assumed the RB approach was to buy enough tickets to the lottery that you land a winner every now and again, which is all you need as you only need one mega star for your top team.

Given they landed Vettel and Verstappen I think it’s worked out pretty well for them.

Lindblad looks promising coming through as well.

[JHSingo]

Albon wasn't a RB junior was he? I remember he was signed for Formula E before he ended up getting the call for Toro Rosso

 

He was in karting IIRC - but had already been dropped from the programme by the time he was in F2. 

[messy]

I think for the number of drivers they’ve had and the fact they have an entire team (not) dedicated to blooding their best youngsters, their hit rate since the days of Vettel and Ricciardo pretty much sucks. But is it because the drivers aren’t good enough, or because they’ve not done the right thing by the drivers they have had? Both, probably. Ten years ago I reckon Lawson, Iwasa and Hadjar all get a Toro Rosso drive and probably two seasons there minimum before they’re either promoted or dropped. But they’ve changed their approach.

Hadjar has won, what, four feature races in F2 this season? But he has little chance.

Edited by messy, 15 September 2024 - 21:07.

[Heyli]

I think the program has brought more drivers to the grid than any other team and quite a few decent ones as well?

[William Hunt]

They've got their next Vettel or next Max already with Arvid Lindblad. That's what matters and because of exactly Lindblad it's not a failure

[TheFish]

I think the program has brought more drivers to the grid than any other team and quite a few decent ones as well?

Sure, it used to be very good. How many has it brought in the last 5 years?

[lustigson]

Verstappen was only signed-up after his Formula 3 success, and even that was a close call between Red Bull and Mercedes. So he doesn't really count.

 

I seem to remember that Vettel had shared involvement from both Red Bull and BMW, with the former eventually putting him in their car. So he would count for only half.

 

Of all the other Red Bull Junior drivers, only a handful have become Grand Prix winners, I think, although some have gone on to success in other series, e.g. Le Mans/WEC.

[DJH63]

They've got their next Vettel or next Max already with Arvid Lindblad. That's what matters and because of exactly Lindblad it's not a failure

I mean this genuinely William, your willingness to die on the hill of Lindblad is inspiring.

[messy]

They've got their next Vettel or next Max already with Arvid Lindblad. That's what matters and because of exactly Lindblad it's not a failure

Far too soon to say that. But hey, bump this is four years when he wins his first WDC and I'll happily eat humble pie.

[renzmann]

So what exactly are we discussing here? If I take the thread literally (others seem to do so), it really is about the RB academy. The question then is: Does RBR do a good job at spotting exceptional talents early on and then make them better (preferably better than youth programs of other F1 teams)? If that's what we're discussing, the answer is no.

 

What makes Red Bull a special place for talents is something else, though. On the level of F1, they like throwing young drivers into the water. They are happy to give chances and Marko takes care of the drivers the old school way. They do so not because they can't pay experienced drivers, but because they think it's exciting. It's part of RBR's DNA, and they have 4 seats to give opportunities. Their "if you're old enough, you're good enough" approach is a blessing for talents, especially the ones without a huge amount of budget. If you don't think that has been a gift to F1, I can't help you. It's brought massive amounts of talent into the sport, and Verstappen is probably the pinnacle of that approach. No way he had been the driver he is today if Marko wouldn't have given him a chance at barely 17 years of age and protecting him as his protegé.

 

That said, it's undeniable RBR haven't been faithful to their culture in recent years. Verstappen of course has a seat. Perez didn't fit to RBR's ideals the very minute they approached him. Tsunoda is locked in to keep Honda happy. The only seat left has been given to an old rookie like de Vries and a senior driver like Ricciardo. The program is stuck. Sad stuff.

[noikeee]

I'm nowhere near as married to the notion that Lindblad is the next Jesus as someone else here is, but this thread does feel a bit comically timed, with Red Bull having Lawson, Hadjar and Lindblad all queueing up to enter.

 

They've had a lull of a few years where they've let the talents escape elsewhere but it's looking a little brighter for the next years again. Whether star drivers will succeed to emerge from there is unknown as it stands. But given their program has given us 1 world champion in Vettel and 3 other race winners in Ricciardo Sainz and Gasly; and you could add Verstappen to the list depending on your criteria whether he qualifies or not, I'm not so sure I'd call it a failure. It's just a model with some huge advantages and some pretty huge flaws as well.

[BRG]

If it is just an exercise to give a lot of young drivers a shot at reaching the big time whilst promoting the Red Bull brand, then I suppose it is working.  There is a lot of Red Bull branding floating around the junior series grids. 

 

If it is a serious attempt to find the next Big Thing, then arguably it is failing.

[garoidb]

So what exactly are we discussing here? If I take the thread literally (others seem to do so), it really is about the RB academy. The question then is: Does RBR do a good job at spotting exceptional talents early on and then make them better (preferably better than youth programs of other F1 teams)? If that's what we're discussing, the answer is no.

 

What makes Red Bull a special place for talents is something else, though. On the level of F1, they like throwing young drivers into the water. They are happy to give chances and Marko takes care of the drivers the old school way. They do so not because they can't pay experienced drivers, but because they think it's exciting. It's part of RBR's DNA, and they have 4 seats to give opportunities. Their "if you're old enough, you're good enough" approach is a blessing for talents, especially the ones without a huge amount of budget. If you don't think that has been a gift to F1, I can't help you. It's brought massive amounts of talent into the sport, and Verstappen is probably the pinnacle of that approach. No way he had been the driver he is today if Marko wouldn't have given him a chance at barely 17 years of age and protecting him as his protegé.

 

That said, it's undeniable RBR haven't been faithful to their culture in recent years. Verstappen of course has a seat. Perez didn't fit to RBR's ideals the very minute they approached him. Tsunoda is locked in to keep Honda happy. The only seat left has been given to an old rookie like de Vries and a senior driver like Ricciardo. The program is stuck. Sad stuff.

 

I think you are making a point I agree with, which is that the Toro Rosso role in the driver academy has been very important. If its considered part of the academy structure, then it is a key reason why they got Max (and also Seb and Dan), notwithstanding that Max wasn't in the academy for much of his junior career. Perez was a deviation from the earlier approach but so, in a way, was Mark Webber. Maybe the process does not produce drivers who fit the role Checo is now in, or maybe there has been too much focus on generating a Max replacement before that was ever needed. The dalliance with Dan made a certain amount of sense but less so if the other second team seat is also blocked. It would be good to see Lawson and someone else come in now, as Max is going to need to be replaced soon.