184 replies to this topic

[1player]

There is a lot of tiring talk around Lando and his supposed lack of winner's mentality that for some is holding him back even in a car that could win the championship.

I do not agree with that notion, but I am wondering if there are other drivers in the history of motorsports that similarly were very quick on track, had the luck of driving with winning teams but that never were able to capitalise on their talent and in hindsight never grew into their full potential.

Bonus points for discussing the opposite phenomenon: drivers that seemed a little underwhelming for a part of their career, but eventually grew into legit championship winners or contenders.

[blackmme]

There is a lot of tiring talk around Lando and his supposed lack of winner's mentality that for some is holding him back even in a car that could win the championship.

I do not agree with that notion, but I am wondering if there are other drivers in the history of motorsports that similarly were very quick on track, had the luck of driving with winning teams but that never were able to capitalise on their talent and in hindsight never grew into their full potential.

Bonus points for discussing the opposite phenomenon: drivers that seemed a little underwhelming for a part of their career, but eventually grew into legit championship winners or contenders.

 

The ones that immediately spring to my mind are.

 

First type: Carlos Reutemann

 

Second type: Niki Lauda

 

They are the archetypes for me.  Probably absolutely nothing between them in terms of outright speed (perhaps on their respective day of days Carlos might have been slightly ahead) but an absolute gulf in terms of mind, race, and career management.

 

Regards Mike

Edited by blackmme, 16 September 2024 - 09:30.

[Sterzo]

An interesting question with only difficult (or speculative) answers, since we can't see into people's minds. I wonder about Peter Collins who was a feisty racer yet deferred to team-mates Fangio and Hawthorn. Then Ronnie Peterson was a stunning talent who appeared to love driving the car but maybe wasn't fixated on doing whatever it took to win.

[Risil]

You could take the "killer instinct" metaphor in some different directions. Is it win-at-all-costs, or an eye for opportunity, or performance under pressure, or the self-assurance to mould a team around your desires? Or...?

[Risil]

Not F1 but I feel Scott Dixon is one driver who became more formidable (if not necessarily faster) in the second half of his career. And he's been with Ganassi for almost the whole time so it's not that he was doing the same thing the whole time but finally found a team worthy of his talents.

[Gareth]

Lando absolutely showed killer instinct when racing vs Verstappen yesterday. That defence in T1 was excellent stuff, and earned him a 4pt swing in the championship. Lots of drivers might have seen someone on 12 lap fresher tyres and decided it wasn't worth losing time in their own race putting up a fight. Lando of a year ago might well have done that. It was good to see that him being in a WDC fight brought out the instinct to try and defend the position.

[Anderis]

I'm not a great believer in something like a "killer instinct". I think the discussion would be much better if it focused on more strictly defined terms like ability/inability to drive under pressure or take correct risk assesments. Even then I can't really think of any examples that stand out that much. I think these things are interconnected and a driver may look like lacking these because he thought he had to driver above of what his actual driving skills were to achieve success rather than he had the skill but lacked the so called "killer instinct". Other times it may be events caused by pure random chance that make people think a driver did or did not have it.

[DW46]

Bottas was as quick as anybody but lacked that edge in where to wheel. There was a Bahrain GP where he just followed Seb around for a few laps never even having a look.

[danmills]

Coulthard.

 

Bottas.

 

Rubens. 

 

Damon.

 

Jenson.

 

Massa.

Edited by danmills, 16 September 2024 - 11:05.

[Slackbladder]

I was going to mention Massa- genuinely quick driver, but only at the front.

[renzmann]

Lando absolutely showed killer instinct when racing vs Verstappen yesterday. That defence in T1 was excellent stuff, and earned him a 4pt swing in the championship. Lots of drivers might have seen someone on 12 lap fresher tyres and decided it wasn't worth losing time in their own race putting up a fight. Lando of a year ago might well have done that. It was good to see that him being in a WDC fight brought out the instinct to try and defend the position.

He did great yesterday, but if anything, yesterday's race showed the killer instict is exaggerated. He didn't need a killer instinct for yesterday.

[1player]

I'm not a great believer in something like a "killer instinct". I think the discussion would be much better if it focused on more strictly defined terms like ability/inability to drive under pressure or take correct risk assesments. Even then I can't really think of any examples that stand out that much. I think these things are interconnected and a driver may look like lacking these because he thought he had to driver above of what his actual driving skills were to achieve success rather than he had the skill but lacked the so called "killer instinct". Other times it may be events caused by pure random chance that make people think a driver did or did not have it.

I made the OP and I actually agree with you. One of the reasons of opening this thread is to see whether all that talk around ruthlessness and "killer instinct" is moot when analysing a career in hindsight. Either you have the talent and are quick (and lucky), or you are not.

[Ferrim]

Giancarlo Fisichella.

Coulthard has been said and, while the differences are many, I see more and more parallels between Coulthard/Häkkinen and Norris/Piastri, in that order.

Edited by Ferrim, 16 September 2024 - 10:44.

[Benchulo]

There is a lot of tiring talk around Lando and his supposed lack of winner's mentality that for some is holding him back even in a car that could win the championship.

I do not agree with that notion, but I am wondering if there are other drivers in the history of motorsports that similarly were very quick on track, had the luck of driving with winning teams but that never were able to capitalise on their talent and in hindsight never grew into their full potential.

Bonus points for discussing the opposite phenomenon: drivers that seemed a little underwhelming for a part of their career, but eventually grew into legit championship winners or contenders.

Nico Rosberg belongs to the second group, IMO. He seemed to lack a bit of ruthlessness during his first two years with Hamilton as his teammate. 2016 was a different Nico, like in Austria.

[PlatenGlass]

Hakkinen dines off that move at Spa but other than that, him. Very quick and it worked well in the time trial era with very little overtaking. But he went off the boil easily and didn't generally do much other than be quick.

[Gambelli]

HHF for sure, sadly!

[Brackets]

Bottas was as quick as anybody but lacked that edge in [wheel] to wheel.There was a Bahrain GP where he just followed Seb around for a few laps never even having a look.

 

Bottas was also the easiest to pass (except when the overtaking driver was his team mate  ), so you might be onto someone there, but the greater point I want to make is that being useless at wheel to wheel stuff does not necessarily equal lacking a killer instinct.

 

For example, Rosberg the Younger was helpless at wheel to wheel stuff, but he certainly didn't lack the killer instinct, leading to some comical episodes in '16 (?) with his very own interpretations of "hanging out to dry".

Edited by Brackets, 16 September 2024 - 11:05.

[KWSN - DSM]

Does Trulli belong here?

[jonklug]

Nick Heidfeld for me. Always thought he should have done more with the talent he had. 

[Balnazzard]

Hakkinen dines off that move at Spa but other than that, him. Very quick and it worked well in the time trial era with very little overtaking. But he went off the boil easily and didn't generally do much other than be quick.

Nah, just because he drove in that era, doesnt mean that he would belong in this discussion. I mean when you are as quick as Mika was, what else you really need? He also was compared to Schumi for example gentlemen on track, he would have never done borderline dangerous moves that Schumi did, but when we are talking about drivers like Bottas, Coulthard, Fisichella and Barichello here, Mika doesn't belong amongs them. 

[JHSingo]

Bottas was as quick as anybody but lacked that edge in where to wheel. There was a Bahrain GP where he just followed Seb around for a few laps never even having a look.

 

Tbf, that's something that has followed Bottas his entire career - and a big part of the reason I found him so frustrating to watch during his time at Mercedes. 

 

Great qualifier, but abysmal race craft. 

[Beri]

Quick Nick Heidfeld

[SophieB]

Does Trulli belong here?

FWIW, that was the first driver that came to mind when I saw the topic but I’m not sure I remember enough of his rececraft in enough detail to be fair.

 

Elsewhere, I also don’t think Massa was lacking a killer instinct, just the extra slice of talent that separates the very good drivers from the greats.

[PayasYouRace]

Is “killer instinct” synonymous with racecraft?

I don’t think so. Jenson Button didn’t seem to have mich killer instinct, but he was superb at pulling out a great overtake or managing his race.

I think Hakkinen is a great sample for this thread, for similar reasons. Fast and capable racer, but measured in his approach.

[Risil]

Is “killer instinct” synonymous with racecraft?

It clearly means different things to different people! Plus it's a metaphor so you can't simply find its literal definition (hopefully(?) none of them would find it easy to kill anyone) and work from there.

[PayasYouRace]

It clearly means different things to different people! Plus it's a metaphor so you can't simply find its literal definition (hopefully(?) none of them would find it easy to kill anyone) and work from there.

Well literally we’re talking about the likes of Williams and Benoist.

But that’s another topic entirely.

[Dan333SP]

Does Trulli belong here?

 

My overarching memory of Jarno was his ability to overqualify the car and then just hold people up with his poor race pace. Always thought that was odd in an era where there wasn't nearly as big a delta between race pace and Q pace because of refueling and tire war tires. 

[pacificquay]

Another sign that people prefer lazy narratives to actually just enjoying races and respecting drivers for their ability.

 

Does killer instinct mean crashing people out to win?

 

Does it mean generally being a dick?

 

Does it mean racing in an unfair manner?

 

Preferable not to have it if it does.

[Risil]

Maybe it's a ratio of number of races you could've won : number of races you actually won.

[Gareth]

FWIW for me it's that ability to pounce when a half opportunity arises. The sort of chance where if you think about it, it's gone.

 

So Piastri's overtake yesterday IMO I'd put in that bucket, as an example.

[PayasYouRace]

Maybe it's a ratio of number of races you could've won : number of races you actually won.

But would a higher ratio mean more or less killer instinct?

[le chat noir]

Giancarlo Fisichella.

Coulthard has been said and, while the differences are many, I see more and more parallels between Coulthard/Häkkinen and Norris/Piastri, in that order.

 

Agreed.

 

Hakkinen would have approached the opportunities presented at Monza and Baku in the same way. As soon as a small opportunity presents itself, scythe your way through, cleanly, and then remain calm in all other proceedings.

 

You don't doubt Piastri will just keep it controlled. He's safe hands.

 

 

Norris gives off the opposite. You never know whether he might spin on the formation lap, crash into the pitwall or have a clumsy crash while fighting for position. Yet still think he's at the top table.

[Sterzo]

Whether we call it winner's mentality, killer instinct or (as I prefer) an extreme focus on winning as the be all and end all, it is a factor in a sportsman's make-up - and the levels vary. You won't reach F1 without an above-average quantity of that commitment, but there could still be variations between drivers.

 

Max Verstappen is one example of having that obsessive commitment to winning. Alex Zanardi was criticised for lacking it by Martin Brundle - he'd made jokes immediately after a retirement, which shocked Brundle (!). Michael Andretti was accused of lacking it by McLaren colleagues from Ron Dennis down.

 

So it is a "thing".

[1player]

Maybe it's a ratio of number of races you could've won : number of races you actually won.

Good definition, and it emphasises the subjectivity of what killer instinct is, simply because it is actually impossible to say "he should have won such a race, but didn't". How do you quantify that? There are so many variables and biases that mislead fans making such a judgement a posteriori.

[P123]

Whether we call it winner's mentality, killer instinct or (as I prefer) an extreme focus on winning as the be all and end all, it is a factor in a sportsman's make-up - and the levels vary. You won't reach F1 without an above-average quantity of that commitment, but there could still be variations between drivers.

 

Max Verstappen is one example of having that obsessive commitment to winning. Alex Zanardi was criticised for lacking it by Martin Brundle - he'd made jokes immediately after a retirement, which shocked Brundle (!). Michael Andretti was accused of lacking it by McLaren colleagues from Ron Dennis down.

 

So it is a "thing".

 

Yeah.... not sure many could match Zanardi's will to win. 

[Beri]

Yeah.... not sure many could match Zanardi's will to win. 

 

In the latter stages of his life; most certain. A role model for that matter as far as I am concerned. During his CART title years, I too think that he was an absolute relentless beast. So it is strange to counter that to the performances at Williams. Because those were genuinely lacklustrous and shy of that mentality that we hail Zanardi for till this day.

[Leibowitz]

JPM

Opposite example is Eddie Irvine.

Edited by Leibowitz, 16 September 2024 - 12:53.

[ensign14]

Emerson Fittipaldi. Got the 1974 title through point accumulation despite being in a car good enough to win the title 2 years later.  Then instead of amassing a load of fresh new statistical highs he effed off to help his brother.  I think the first eye of the tiger he really showed was Indy 1989.

[pacificquay]

 

 

Norris gives off the opposite. You never know whether he might spin on the formation lap, crash into the pitwall or have a clumsy crash while fighting for position. Yet still think he's at the top table.

yet he’s never done any of those things 

[Beri]

Emerson Fittipaldi. Got the 1974 title through point accumulation despite being in a car good enough to win the title 2 years later.  Then instead of amassing a load of fresh new statistical highs he effed off to help his brother.  I think the first eye of the tiger he really showed was Indy 1989.

 

You cant become a double World Champion lacking some sort of killer instinct. Thats my take.

[Sterzo]

Yeah.... not sure many could match Zanardi's will to win. 

Indeed, and it would be fun to compare his record with that of his detractor, Martin Brundle. However, there might be something here... Maybe, just maybe, Zanardi and Andretti arrived as hugely successful racers, were thrown into a no-hope situation, and understandably found it harder to give their all ito scrabble for minor placings. Just a theory.

[Benchulo]

I would say Lando so far lacks the ruthlessness of Vettel or Alonso. In the sense that putting his own championship aspirations first and for most. The ability to get the team completely behind him for the WDC.

I would describe killer instinct as delivering results on crucial moments of the championship. Maybe this could be learning a season for Lando and he gets even better next season. But so far he lacks it, IMHO.

Edited by Benchulo, 16 September 2024 - 13:10.

[1player]

Norris gives off the opposite. You never know whether he might spin on the formation lap, crash into the pitwall or have a clumsy crash while fighting for position. Yet still think he's at the top table.

Provide one single example of Norris spinning on formation lap or crashing into the pitwall or other clumsy crash (Austria 2024 is debatable)

 

Just one. I'll wait.

[George Costanza]

Heinz-Harald Frentzen and I would say Rubens Barrichello too.

Giancarlo and Alex Wurz, DC.

They were all fairly quick. But they lacked the desire and ruthlessness.

Edited by George Costanza, 16 September 2024 - 13:27.

[George Costanza]

Coulthard.

Bottas.

Rubens.

Damon.

Jenson.

Massa.

Damon was a silent killer. He took on Michael Schumacher and won. You cannot do that without such a killer instinct.

Jacques had a killer instinct for sure.

Edited by George Costanza, 16 September 2024 - 13:29.

[Risil]

But would a higher ratio mean more or less killer instinct?

 

More killer instinct = closer to 1:1

[Risil]

Alex Zanardi was criticised for lacking it by Martin Brundle - he'd made jokes immediately after a retirement, which shocked Brundle (!).

 

I have a distinct memory (from Youtube) of Martin Brundle giving an interview for the BBC after retiring from the 1986 Monaco Grand Prix and making a joke that since Patrick Tambay's wheel had brushed against his helmet as the Haas-Lola went over the top of him, they would at least have an idea of what compound he was running.

 

I wonder if Ken Tyrrell chewed Brundle out about that and the memory stuck with him into retirement.

[George Costanza]

Does Trulli belong here?

I think that's a good example. Jarno was incredibly quick over one lap, among the fastest, but he couldn't sustain it.

[George Costanza]

Now here's a question....who is the driver with the biggest killer instinct? I would say probably Ayrton Senna or Alain Prost or Max or Michael. Fernando is definitely too.

Lewis Hamilton too of course.

But of those...

I would give the edge to Ayrton. As he said race to win was his life. He was literally consumed to win. Especially after what happened in 1989.

Edited by George Costanza, 16 September 2024 - 13:38.

[Gravelngrass]

Coulthard.

Bottas.

Rubens.

Damon.

Jenson.

Massa.

Spot on, but I would except Coulthard from that list as I think he just had a great car and add Frentzen.