184 replies to this topic

[juicy sushi]

Everyone wants to win. Killer instinct just means "how far will you take it to get the win", i.e. how ruthless you are, how willing you are to bend the rules or park your car in Rascasse during qualifying if it helps you win.

Except if the penalty you get nailed with then costs you that win. That’s where I question if equating it with ruthlessness is suitable. You need to have an aggression to take risks, but also be able to consistently pull them off in high pressure situations, while also knowing when NOT to take them.

[ARTGP]

I think "killer instinct" is just a buzz word. A bit vague and not clear what the benefit is. 

 

Thread title should be "Genuinely quick drivers that sabotage themselves" because that tends to be the problem with many fast drivers. It's also a catch all for fast drivers who don't quite put it all together for different reasons. 

Edited by ARTGP, 17 September 2024 - 19:13.

[George Costanza]

Everyone wants to win. Killer instinct just means "how far will you take it to get the win", i.e. how ruthless you are, how willing you are to bend the rules or park your car in Rascasse during qualifying if it helps you win.

Like I said Schumacher and Senna the two most ruthless drivers of their era.

[TMC44]

Mark Webber lacked that certain something, Vettel on the other hand did not.

Newey said in his book that Vettel got inside Webbers head.

[JeanAlesi27]

Sky posted on FB today a piece entitled  "Does Oscar have more 'killer instinct' than Lando?"

 

Based on recent form I'd have to say yes. Bu the season is far from over..

[F1Frog]

Sky posted on FB today a piece entitled "Does Oscar have more 'killer instinct' than Lando?"

Based on recent form I'd have to say yes. Bu the season is far from over..

I think definitely, but he isn’t quite as fast.

[MikeTekRacing]

 

 

No way: 

 

Mika Hakkinen - won two champiosnhips and lost a 3rd against Schumacher due to Mclaren being unrealiable. 

 

Kimi Raikkonen - Amazing craft, won a championship with Ferrari after a second part of the season on pair with a vintage Schumacher recovering from a big point deficit. Lost 2 other championships due to reliability. Very good in wheel to wheel. 

 

Jenson Button - Champion with a new team, kept going strong.  Beated Villeneuve, Barrichello, Hamilton and Alonso across a season. 

I don't think the 3 of them would really be killers. Not that they are not great drivers, but not killers

I also don't agree with the one sided view on Mika. You can spin in the other way one sided that he had a huge advantage in 98 and barely won it, in 99 he barely won it against Irvine (with Michael injured and driving laps around them when he returned to let Irvine win),  2000 required a streak of bad races/bad luck from Ferrari. He needed a gifted win for the first one in Jerez 1997. These are all facts but are very one sided. Opposite one sided was yours. Spa 98 gets brought up very often but I feel it's overly milked. He had a huge momentum on that straight and Zota placed his car in the middle of the track. No matter what Schumacher picked he was toast due to the speed difference

Kimi at Mclaren was KILLER. At Ferrari not so much. Overall beaten by Massa

[baddog]

I don't really think this overall idea is fair to Norris. He has been playing for a WDC run and has in fact lost by making more aggressive pit calls that didn't pan out for example, and he has some damned good on track fights to his name.

[Gyan]

The hypothesis I wanted to explore in this thread is that "killer instinct" is mostly bullshit and subjective. There is aggressiveness, but which might define Senna as well as Magnussen, but we have plenty of excellent examples of drivers which were, let's say, more gentlemanly and still very successful.

 

You're wrong about it being subjective IMO. Killer instinct is simply having that extra determination/drive to keep pressing your opponents in a bid to force errors and the ability to strike and take the spoils when said errors happen or simply that extra determination/drive when even the slightest hint of an opportunity arises - no matter the odds, no matter the circumstances. Willpower if you forced me to describe it in one word. It isn't inherently tied to aggression, ruthlessness or anything else, which is why both super-aggressive or gentlemanly drivers can have it/are examples of it.

 

I should add that I don't think any professional sportsperson inherently lacks or has an absence of killer instinct, but it is safe to say some drivers have much more of it compared to others.

[Jackmancer]

1998 Australian Grand Prix, Coulthard. 

[NotAPineapple]

A killer instinct can be seen in a driver makes something out of nothing and is able to do so repeadtedly.

Montoya on Schumacher in Brazil 2001
Verstappen on Nasr in Belgium 2015

[Mc_Silver]

It seems everybody has its own definition for this "killer instinct" nonsense

[MikeTekRacing]

A killer instinct can be seen in a driver makes something out of nothing and is able to do so repeadtedly.

Montoya on Schumacher in Brazil 2001
Verstappen on Nasr in Belgium 2015

Montoya on Schumacher was just running the other driver wide. Not arguing Michael didn’t do worse but that one was not a nice move. Schumacher gave him enough room and Montoya just ran him wide

[messy]

I seem to remember there was a thread maybe a year ago that was "drivers with great natural speed who lacked in other areas" and that was pretty much the same thread but less bickering about definition! Would be interesting to see how the answers compared.

[NotAPineapple]

Montoya on Schumacher was just running the other driver wide. Not arguing Michael didn’t do worse but that one was not a nice move. Schumacher gave him enough room and Montoya just ran him wide

And?

So you just described the perfect overtake. Where you snooker your opponent into finishing the move on himself.

Quite literally the quintessential approach stemming from a killer instinct.

[AnttiK]

Berger was very fast and beated Senna many times during 1990-1992.

 

There was a very short period of time in late 1991, perhaps from Estoril to Suzuka, when Berger suddenly rose up to a new level, but apart from those few races, my impression is that Senna always had a pretty clear edge on Berger.

 

Berger also seemed to have recurring problems with his tire management. His driving style was pretty hard on tires in general, but he would also often push too hard on full tanks at the beginning of the races, and then he would have to make a very early pitstop for tires. That's why he would sometimes run really close to Senna at the beginning of the races (like 1990 Monza for example), but then as the race progressed, he would fall back.

[1player]

Sky posted on FB today a piece entitled "Does Oscar have more 'killer instinct' than Lando?"

There was a The Race article titled "PIASTRI'S KILLER INSTINCT WILL KEEP MAKING MCLAREN'S DRIVER CALLS HARDER", released after this thread was opened. Strange coincidence in theme and choice of words.

We all should know that social media is just recycled and copied nonsense, and that people that write articles are the same that spend time on forums or Reddit, seeing what the topic du jour is, copying each other ad infinitum.

Edited by 1player, 18 September 2024 - 08:48.

[pacificquay]

The phrase was used in a the-race podcast which came out before this thread was started

[KWSN - DSM]

Killer instinct have been used for minimum 70 years.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Any excuse to post this banger...

 

[chrcol]

My issue with Lando, being in this thread, is I think this year is too early for him, his development was damaged earlier by all the favourable team orders he got, WC's tend to just beat their team mates on merit and are usually contenders from an early point, it is one of the reasons I felt Mclaren should not have treated this year as a WDC year, as its placing pressure on a driver with only an outside chance.

Edited by chrcol, 18 September 2024 - 09:32.

[absinthedude]

1995 was in no way the “real level” of Damon Hill, by all accounts he was having an unusually poor season, struggling with off track issues.

 

I'm not sure Berger beat Senna very often in 1990-92 when they had the same equipment. Senna made mistakes occasionally but generally not when he was racing Berger.

The story everyone knows about Berger is that he got a lot more wary approaching the limits of his machinery after the crash at Imola in 1989.

As for Alesi, he lacked a cool head under pressure and sometimes the ability to consider his situation strategically. Once he got into the top seats this was exhibited frequently. Very fast of course, when things happened to go well he could run with anyone.

 

Remember that McLaren didn't bother to build a car that 6'2 Berger could actually fit in until 1992. He was hampered in 1990 and 1991 by being very cramped in the cockpit. I would also agree that the crash in 1989 changed his willingness to take risks, perhaps that is part of the "killer instinct". I am unsure we ever really saw him at his very best, there had been more potential. But he enjoyed a very long career with more victories than most so I am sure he wouldn't complain. 

 

Alesi was such a mystery. Blisteringly fast. He performed miracles with the Tyrrell in 1989 and particularly 1990 but as you say, once he found himself at Ferrari and Benetton he failed to really take the opportunities with both hands. 

 

 

1995 was in no way the “real level” of Damon Hill, by all accounts he was having an unusually poor season, struggling with off track issues.

 

His autobiography should be compulsary reading before anyone starts discussing his 1995 and 1999 seasons. It is probably the most revealing, brave and candid account of a famous person battling mental health problems than any other I've read....even more so than Brian Wilson's second autobiography (which Brian probably actually had input into, unlike the first). 

[pacificquay]

Killer instinct have been used for minimum 70 years.

I meant in relation to Piastri

[KWSN - DSM]

I meant in relation to Piastri

 

Sorry.

[George Costanza]

A killer instinct can be seen in a driver makes something out of nothing and is able to do so repeadtedly.

Montoya on Schumacher in Brazil 2001
Verstappen on Nasr in Belgium 2015

Montoya ran wide. That is not a good example.

[Nemo1965]

The first time I answered this question, was more and less in the same vein as other posters: some drivers with great natural talent but not that meanness that other drivers had (see Ralf Schumacher vs Michael Schumacher). Or, as a dictionary would phrase it: 'A way of behaving in order to achieve an advantage for yourself without considering or worrying if it hurts other people.'

 

But I've had a think, and realised that when I usually think of killer instinct in my own sport (tennis) is not meant in the above described egoistical way. It means that WHEN the opportunity arises, you are there to take advantage of it. Take Keke Rosberg. Not a mean driver. Bold, daring, but not someone who would put someone in the wall for the win. But he had that knack, that feeling for 'This is a special occasion, a special chance, I am going to grab it.' Monaco 1983: he started on slicks (when it was still wet), won the race. In Dallas 1984 the track was crumbling and he won in what was possible the worst Williams in their GP-winning years. Not to mention the whole 1982 season...

 

I was a big fan of Carlos Reutemann... but boy, was he someone who could snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Or choose to swap teams at exactly the wrong time. Everybody remembers Las Vegas 1981, where he started on pole-position and finished 8th (I believe), when team-mate Alan Jones (who was going to retire) won the race. What fewer people know is that he made a boneheaded overtake-attempt at Lafitte in Zandvoort... and repeated almost an identical botched attempt in Brazil 1982... a race after which he retired. Carlos was man who looked a 'killer' (he could have starred as the villain in many a western) but he had no killer-instinct.

 

Another five cents from my side...

Edited by Nemo1965, 18 September 2024 - 14:43.

[Flyhigh]

Lando Norris this year has been a prime example.. no need to over complicate, Killer instinct means basically a mentally strong, resilient sportsman, that rises under pressure, performs better than others under stress. Is a commonality quality in sports... Barrichello,  Vettel post Red Bull, Raikkonen.. being considered the next great thing and delivering far less, a lot likely due to handling adversities car handling, pressure, etc. poorly...  just to name a few prominent names...    

[RedRabbit]

Maybe it's a ratio of number of races you could've won : number of races you actually won.

That's about as close a definition as we going to get about "killer instinct".

Maybe it's because I live in Africa, but for us, killer instinct is a primal thing that's embedded in natural ability.

It's having the natural instinct to know when to make a move that will be successful (or a kill).

It's probably something that will reflect in a driver's statistics after a while. As you said, ratios.

Successful overtakes vs collisions
Unexpected wins vs unexpected losses
Great in-laps vs poor in-laps or out-laps
VSC management
Etc

[garoidb]

That's entirely fair.  I don't know what exactly killer instinct means, myself, which was why I sort of said that.  To me the killer instinct isn't just raw aggression, there's a precision involved to ensure that the result matches the intent.  Going for any gap at any moment to me doesn't seem like a killer instinct so much as suicidal lack of impulse control.  If we're saying that we mean just raw aggression then there are an awful lot of world champions with plenty of fastest laps, passes, and pole positions who lacked a "killer instinct."

 

Thinking about this more ... could we call your version of this the assassin's instinct? It's more cerebral and controlled. 

[NotAPineapple]

Montoya ran wide. That is not a good example.

He stayed on the track. He judged the grip level perfectly at turn 1 the first lap after the safety car. Used every centimeter of the trck but not more, it's a perfect example.

He came from so far back and braked so late that the car was barely under control till after he passed he apex. The move was never on but he made it work and it caught Schumacher totally unaware.

Anyone who doesnt class that as a brilliant overtake have no idea about motorsport.

It's the best example of killer instinct you can possibly have. Something made of nothing on cold tyres against a world champion.

[George Costanza]

He stayed on the track. He judged the grip level perfectly at turn 1 the first lap after the safety car. Used every centimeter of the trck but not more, it's a perfect example.

He came from so far back and braked so late that the car was barely under control till after he passed he apex. The move was never on but he made it work and it caught Schumacher totally unaware.

Anyone who doesnt class that as a brilliant overtake have no idea about motorsport.

It's the best example of killer instinct you can possibly have. Something made of nothing on cold tyres against a world champion.

It was a very good move, I'll agree with that but Jean Alesi made moves like that when he was racing too.

Edited by George Costanza, 18 September 2024 - 23:41.

[Bleu]

Yes Williams in 1995 has bad strategy and that when Benetton was so much better in the pit calls. But everyone knows the Williams FW17 was the better car.

 

Williams was faster but Benetton was more reliable.

[George Costanza]

Williams was faster but Benetton was more reliable.

Only in Michael's ability.

[Bleu]

Only in Michael's ability.

 

Hill's car broke in Brazil, Spain (on the last lap, dropped two places) and Canada. Germany was debatable whether it was a car failure or mistake.

 

Coulthard had race-ending failures in Argentina, Monaco, Spain and Belgium, Monza spin was suspected wheel bearing failure.

 

Schumacher had one retirement in Hungary and electrical failure in Canada which cost him a win but he was still able to get some points. Herbert had one mechanical retirement in Australia.

[noikeee]

You guys are conflating a ton of different things:

- aggressiveness
- selfishness/standing up for oneself (ie, not accepting team orders, etc)
- remaining calm under pressure
- speed overall and in particular race speed, which is also much a function of the cars they drove and not only personal skills

Someone like Jean Alesi or JPM would be laughable to say they were lacking in aggressiveness, but didn't have the ultimate speed. Mika Hakkinen was super fast but perhaps lacked a tiny bit in the other categories. Trulli has been mentioned often but he was only really notable for lacking race speed badly compared to his freakish qualifying speed. Massa was mentioned several times, but didn't really lack aggressiveness (in fact often his problem was being overaggressive and clumsy) and stayed really calm under pressure in the most important race of his life (Brazil 2008). Michael Schumacher one of the fastest and most ruthless drivers we've ever seen, and one nobody would dream of mentioning as the example here, choked under pressure in title deciders several times (ex. the clumsy moves in Suzuka 94 and Jerez 97 and being unexplainably slow in Suzuka 03 which almost cost him the title). Mark Webber definitely did not lack aggressiveness or selfishness, just wasn't really quite fast enough for a title. Etc etc

Tldr apart from some notable drivers which lacked in each and every of these categories - I'm looking at you HHF and Fisi.. who are only really even mentioned because they DID have the speed at certain points of their careers, just not when it mattered the most - this is all very bullshit.