43 replies to this topic

[danmills]

Someone posted in another thread about Mclaren being hit hard next year with regards to wind tunnel restrictions.

 

Does anyone know if time allocations and limits are still imposed on constructors finishing order under a completely new regulation overhaul?

 

Because that would absolutely screw a team over, especially as everyone is effectively truly starting a new concept from scratch.

[NCB619]

Considering they appear in the 2025 Sporting Regulations under their current guise on the FIA website, I would assume so.

"Coefficient C as a function of Championship position, P in 2022-2025:"

[chrcol]

F1 has always been kind of like this anyway, when Mclaren and Ferrari were fighting for WDC in 2008 it meant they had little focus on 2009 and as such were affected badly.

[ARTGP]

 

Because that would absolutely screw a team over, especially as everyone is effectively truly starting a new concept from scratch.

 

 

I agree. It doesn't make sense to base the windtunnel allocations for a new design era (2026), on results from a previous design era (2024/5). It should have been reset and everyone given equal development time.

 

The system also showed flaws. Mclaren at a time when they effectively had the fastest car, had more wind tunnel hours than Red Bull and Ferrari and still do currently.

 

Adrian Newey will design the 2026 Aston Martin with much more windtunnel hours than the likes of Mclaren/Ferrari/Red Bull. This will come back to haunt Formula 1 in 2026 since they refuse to address all of the loopholes which are not in the spirit of the system. 

Edited by ARTGP, 18 September 2024 - 13:49.

[Clatter]

I agree. It doesn't make sense to base the windtunnel allocations for a new design era (2026), on results from a previous design era (2024/5). It should have been reset and everyone given equal development time.

The system also showed flaws. Mclaren at a time when they effectively had the fastest car, had more wind tunnel hours than Red Bull and Ferrari and still do currently.

Adrian Newey will design the 2026 Aston Martin with much more windtunnel hours than the likes of Mclaren/Ferrari/Red Bull. This will come back to haunt Formula 1 in 2026 since they refuse to address all of the loopholes which are not in the spirit of the system.

Trouble with resetting is how do they ensure that the time is used on the 2026 design, and not to try and gain in 2025?

[ARTGP]

Trouble with resetting is how do they ensure that the time is used on the 2026 design, and not to try and gain in 2025?

 

Good question. There's probably not a good answer. 

[sterlingfan2000]

This is completely unfair for 2026. I hope teams find a solution, because it basically punish who wins WDC this year.

FIA should give every Team same Windtunnel time for 2025 and even 2026 since new cars

Edited by sterlingfan2000, 18 September 2024 - 15:00.

[Myrvold]

The system also showed flaws. Mclaren at a time when they effectively had the fastest car, had more wind tunnel hours than Red Bull and Ferrari and still do currently.

It is reset once during the season, so it's not likely to be a huge issue tbf.

[DJH63]

It’s going to be an engine formula as bad as 2014> was so it’s really not worth worrying about.

[Paa]

This being unfair was already raised like ~1 year ago, when Red Bulled seemed to dominate. (by this I mean, a team have to prepare for a new ruleset with limited resources, just because it was successful in previous ruleset).

Didn't raise too much attention back then, they just said it was fair, because these are the rules.

I guess some people were secretly happy that this might hurt Red Bull, other people stated that WT restriction didn't matter anyway.

 

 

I personally thought it was unfair and still think so, regardless of which team will be hit.

 

 

edit: to be clear, I'm talking about only  in relation to rule change in 2026, not the general system in any random year.

Edited by Paa, 18 September 2024 - 16:14.

[Clatter]

It’s going to be an engine formula as bad as 2014> was so it’s really not worth worrying about.

I doubt it.

[Clatter]

This being unfair was already raised like ~1 year ago, when Red Bulled seemed to dominate.
Didn't raise too much attention back then, they just said it was fair, because these are the rules.
I guess some people were secretly happy that this might hurt Red Bull, other people stated that WT restriction didn't matter anyway.


I personally thought it was unfair and still think so, regardless of which team will be hit.

It's not the same. Everyone was still playing to the same rule set, so the restrictions were to help level the playing field. The unfairness is because the rules are changing.

[Paa]

It's not the same. Everyone was still playing to the same rule set, so the restrictions were to help level the playing field. The unfairness is because the rules are changing.

 

It is exactly the same, because I'm talking about the same issue.

It was discussed only in relation to the 2026 rule changes back then as well.

 

Sorry if it was not clear from my original post, I thought this is obvious, otherwise it would have been a really stupid analogue as you pointed out. I'll edit that post.

[pdac]

Trouble with resetting is how do they ensure that the time is used on the 2026 design, and not to try and gain in 2025?

 

Easy - give no wind tunnel allocation to any team and make them have to start without being able to have any idea about what they have done.

[MikeTekRacing]

F1 has always been kind of like this anyway, when Mclaren and Ferrari were fighting for WDC in 2008 it meant they had little focus on 2009 and as such were affected badly.

completely different things. 

They were allowed to spend how much they wanted, 24x7. They could build 20 cars in parallel

Now they are limited by

- what they can spent on

- even if they have budget they can't use the test tunnel because they won the title last year.

 

It's a key thing that helped Mclaren this year (being crap the years before AND doing great things meant they had the tools to improve). It is baked in the rules.

why should it reset for 2026?

last year there were countless convos of how Red Bull are just going to run away with this and kick start early development etc - each time someone pointed out wind tunnel allocation it was brushed off as unimportant.

Mclaren got the lead of the WCC for the first time - the rules are unfair about tunnel allocation!!! yeah, no...or they have been for a while

[Clatter]

Easy - give no wind tunnel allocation to any team and make them have to start without being able to have any idea about what they have done.

I quiet like the idea. See who had the best Cfd.

[danmills]

I wonder what's more valuable to Sauber, the WCC money or wind tunnel time.

 

Could all be tactical. 

[lio007]

Since 1st of July 2021 Red Bull Racing has the least amount of aero testing (wind tunnel and CFD) and that was even reduced by an additional 10% from Oct.2022 - Oct.2023 by their ABA.

So it's not automatically bad for McLaren regarding the 2026 regulations. For sure they have to adjust to get used to the reduced aero testing.

[pdac]

I quiet like the idea. See who had the best Cfd.

 

It's not about who has the best CFD, it's about who can understand the numbers better.

[PayasYouRace]

I don’t really see a problem here, new regulations or not.

[loki]

Easy - give no wind tunnel allocation to any team and make them have to start without being able to have any idea about what they have done.

Sounds pretty much how it appears Alpine has done this season…

[GrumpyYoungMan]

At what point can they do unofficial “off the books” design work and say they just lucked into that design?!

[FirstnameLastname]

You know Newey has a copy of the regs at home and a drawing board. There’s no way he’s outside in the garden weeding.

[MikeTekRacing]

At what point can they do unofficial “off the books” design work and say they just lucked into that design?!

Can’t do that. You leave traces, you have to see the evolution
That’s why RP couldn’t say they lucked into the Mercedes design.

[PayasYouRace]

At what point can they do unofficial “off the books” design work and say they just lucked into that design?!

A bit of a problem when a design appears with no drawings and test reports to back it up.

[baddog]

I mean the intention, however it is dressed up, was to hobble the winners to mix things up.  It shouldn't be a surprise that it will hobble the winners.

[Timorous]

The answer would be to give a fixed amount of wind tunnel and CFD resource to each team for 2026 car development. Every team gets the same for their 2026 car so the 1st iteration will purely be a result of who does the best job with the resources available. If it was set at a level that even the likes of Haas or Sauber could max it out then it does give a chance for a team to surprise a bit like Brawn did which would be fun.

[Beri]

Somehow I find it funny that it was of no issue when there was one team dominating. But now that other teams are catching up, it is a problem.

 

The rules havent changed. And teams are playing by the rules already. I cant see an issue here. Yes it could mean that one team gets hurt via this way (McLaren). But it very well could also mean that another team is winning some (for example Aston Martin).

[sterlingfan2000]

Somehow I find it funny that it was of no issue when there was one team dominating. But now that other teams are catching up, it is a problem.

The rules havent changed. And teams are playing by the rules already. I cant see an issue here. Yes it could mean that one team gets hurt via this way (McLaren). But it very well could also mean that another team is winning some (for example Aston Martin).

The rules are okay but we have new cars for 2026, that's where the Problem is.

[Beri]

I call bull. Because these rules were instated during the 2021 season. So for the new cars of 2022 this was also (partly) in play already. And for the majority this also did count for the investigation and subsequent redesigns of the cars during the clampdown on porpoising.

Yes, ofcourse there will be teams hurt and some will hugely benefit. But evidently is shown this season that this doesnt mean it will be a full 5 years of domination like we have seen with Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes in the past. The Red Bull dominance, under the new ground effect rules, in reality has only been about 1.5 seasons. 2022 saw a great fight during the early stages of the season with Red Bull and Ferrari before the 2nd half of the season being Red Bulls. Then 2023 came and yes that was domination. But now we are in 2024 and we are witnessing, and I dare to put it like this; one of the best seasons in this millennium already.

So Id say; let the 2026 rules come into play. Accept that there will likely be one team standing out. But keep the rules steady and we will see great fights again and the field will edge closer come 2028. And this edging will be done mainly due to the rules. So suck it up if you are the one with the least time in the windtunnel. Its part of the play that you agreed upon by signing off these rules.

[chrcol]

completely different things. 

They were allowed to spend how much they wanted, 24x7. They could build 20 cars in parallel

Now they are limited by

- what they can spent on

- even if they have budget they can't use the test tunnel because they won the title last year.

 

It's a key thing that helped Mclaren this year (being crap the years before AND doing great things meant they had the tools to improve). It is baked in the rules.

why should it reset for 2026?

last year there were countless convos of how Red Bull are just going to run away with this and kick start early development etc - each time someone pointed out wind tunnel allocation it was brushed off as unimportant.

Mclaren got the lead of the WCC for the first time - the rules are unfair about tunnel allocation!!! yeah, no...or they have been for a while

It is different yes, but I do think the restriction is a good thing, I actually think they should have gone further and restricted the cap.

 

It is these rules that may have assisted Mclaren in catching up with RB, also both Merc and Ferrari gained ground as well.

Edited by chrcol, 19 September 2024 - 13:38.

[PlatenGlass]

Success ballast. Not something a serious competition would entertain.

[Joseki]

Newey going into the 2026 ruleset with the newest, most advanced wind tunnel in F1 and more windtunnel hours than all competing teams?

[ARTGP]

Newey going into the 2026 ruleset with the newest, most advanced wind tunnel in F1 and more windtunnel hours than all competing teams?

 

This should scare more people.  2025, the last competitive F1 season 

Edited by ARTGP, 19 September 2024 - 14:11.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

I call bull. Because these rules were instated during the 2021 season. So for the new cars of 2022 this was also (partly) in play already. And for the majority this also did count for the investigation and subsequent redesigns of the cars during the clampdown on porpoising.
Yes, ofcourse there will be teams hurt and some will hugely benefit. But evidently is shown this season that this doesnt mean it will be a full 5 years of domination like we have seen with Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes in the past. The Red Bull dominance, under the new ground effect rules, in reality has only been about 1.5 seasons. 2022 saw a great fight during the early stages of the season with Red Bull and Ferrari before the 2nd half of the season being Red Bulls. Then 2023 came and yes that was domination. But now we are in 2024 and we are witnessing, and I dare to put it like this; one of the best seasons in this millennium already.
So Id say; let the 2026 rules come into play. Accept that there will likely be one team standing out. But keep the rules steady and we will see great fights again and the field will edge closer come 2028. And this edging will be done mainly due to the rules. So suck it up if you are the one with the least time in the windtunnel. It’s part of the play that you agreed upon by signing off these rules.

Red Bull loosing there brake magic and Newey is a big reason for that! No?

[George Costanza]

F1 has always been kind of like this anyway, when Mclaren and Ferrari were fighting for WDC in 2008 it meant they had little focus on 2009 and as such were affected badly.

Zero budget cap back then.

[George Costanza]

Newey going into the 2026 ruleset with the newest, most advanced wind tunnel in F1 and more windtunnel hours than all competing teams?

Not much different than 1998. Lol.

[sterlingfan2000]

Not much different than 1998. Lol.

It doesn't matter if Mercedes comes with an overpowered Engine again. Even 20 Newey won't help then

[danmills]

How can people say it's not an issue?

 

If you played football and there was a new rule that meant you had to kick the ball with your hands instead, every second of additional practice is hugely beneficial. 

 

2026 has new rules, a massive aero change, so every second of wind tunnel time counts tenfold than a standard season to season where, by comparison, you kick a ball the same way but say the only difference is you must hit with a different part of the foot vs using your hands.

 

Small changes in rules vs massive rule changes.

 

That's why this particular season will be more of an issue. We're not tweaking foot to foot changes, it's feet to hands level difference.

Edited by danmills, 20 September 2024 - 16:16.

[pdac]

It's not an issue because the whole point of the rule is to handicap the team that wins. Sure, it *MAY* be more of a handicap in a season when the regulations have changed, but you pays your money and you takes your chances. If, for example, McLaren might feel that they would be handicapped, they could easily decide to throw this year to restore their advantage over someone else. That's the same in any year - if you don't like the disadvantage, then you can always pull back and play the mediocre card. If you want to win, you have to suck up the restrictions.

Edited by pdac, 20 September 2024 - 18:09.

[Anderis]

It's a self correcting issue.

 

You get badly affected one year, you finish lower in WCC, then you get more wind tunnel time and easier to catch up in the following year.

[PlatenGlass]

Since they're doing this sort of thing anyway, having reverse grids instead would be a lot more fun.

[danmills]

I think as above stated the new rules should warrant a clean sweep of equal wind tunnel time to each team.

 

How would it make sense to cap the 2024 WCC with 2025 tunnel limits towards the 2026 car? I get you can't really differentiate tunnel time if it's the 2025 or 2026 car.

 

Unless, say, after mid season 2025, employ current rules but then lift the cap entirely for everyone as most will be putting more effort to 2026 by then. 

[pdac]

I think as above stated the new rules should warrant a clean sweep of equal wind tunnel time to each team.

 

How would it make sense to cap the 2024 WCC with 2025 tunnel limits towards the 2026 car? I get you can't really differentiate tunnel time if it's the 2025 or 2026 car.

 

Unless, say, after mid season 2025, employ current rules but then lift the cap entirely for everyone as most will be putting more effort to 2026 by then. 

 

I say have it consistently applied no matter what, or else (better) just scrap the whole idea of handicapping teams just to artificially create a sense of equality.  Nothing is equal in the world. Why should F1 be different? You can't strive for equality and at the same time have a contest to find who's the best.

Edited by pdac, 21 September 2024 - 12:35.