602 replies to this topic

[red stick]

Framing the off-season, long period of hibernation that it is.

Discuss amongst yourselves.

Will Fox televising IndyCar events be an improvement, or make us nostalgic for complaining about Peacock?
Will "hybrid" powerplants, Year Two, bring an increase in power and a noticeable change to the racing?
Will McLaren find a way to turn cubic dollars into more wins?
Will Lundgaard prove to be the O'Ward challenger Rosenqvist and Rossi never really were?
Will Nolan Siegel justify Kanaan's confidence, or be gone by May?
Will Colton Herta be a legitimate Championship threat, or revert to the mean?
Will Marcus Ericsson have a better sophomore year at Andretti or, as I suggested in my 2024 recap, was he flattered by CGR equipment?
Will MSR, backed with Ganassi technical assistance, continue its rise?
Will anybody find a way to stop Palou from becoming the youngest-ever four-time champion?
Will Malukas and Ferrucci prove to be the Johncock and Dallenbach of the era at Foyt?
Will RLL spend more or less time in court than Alex Palou?
Will Ed Carpenter hire new engineers/strategists?
Will Power?
Will McLaughlin grab the championship race by the throat at St. Pete and never let go?
Will Dixon find an answer for that metronomic Spaniard next door?
Will Newgarden find inner peace?
Will Grosjean find it first?
Will a long-awaited announcement of the next spec chassis finally appear?
Which non-Big Four team will win a race?

Stay tuned.

Edited by red stick, 21 September 2024 - 16:21.

[Anja]

Will Lundqvist prove to be the O'Ward challenger Rosenqvist and Rossi never really were?

 

Wrong Lund 

[red stick]

Wrong Lund 

Fixed!

[prommer]

I've consulted an inside source so we can move this discussion along:

 

Will Fox televising IndyCar events be an improvement, or make us nostalgic for complaining about Peacock?

Signs point to yes.

Will "hybrid" powerplants, Year Two, bring an increase in power and a noticeable change to the racing?
Yes, definitely.

Will McLaren find a way to turn cubic dollars into more wins?
Concentrate and ask again.

Will Lundgaard prove to be the O'Ward challenger Rosenqvist and Rossi never really were?
Without a doubt.

 

 

When I got to "Will Power?" my source started leaking, and had to pit early.

[loki]

Who is this Will Lungaard guy?

[Jim Thurman]

Will Malukas and Ferrucci prove to be the Johncock and Dallenbach of the era at Foyt?

Excellent comparison, though Gordon and Wally were teammates at Patrick.

 

As one might expect, Foyt was generally a one car team during his driving days, save for the 500-mile races. He certainly fielded some good drivers in those second cars though. Jim McElreath, Joe Leonard, George Snider and Sammy Sessions among them. Some had, or equalled, their career bests in Foyt #2 cars. 

[jonpollak]

Will.





Jp

[red stick]

Excellent comparison, though Gordon and Wally were teammates at Patrick.

As one might expect, Foyt was generally a one car team during his driving days, save for the 500-mile races. He certainly fielded some good drivers in those second cars though. Jim McElreath, Joe Leonard, George Snider and Sammy Sessions among them. Some had, or equalled, their career bests in Foyt #2 cars.

Yes, Patrick. Sorry for the ambiguity. The comparison was about things beyond employment.

Edited by red stick, 21 September 2024 - 00:55.

[StraightEdge]

Rinus Veekay out at ECR

[GlenWatkins]

Rinus Veekay out at ECR

Ed gave him the boot!

https://racer.com/20...rpenter-racing/

[Jim Thurman]

Yes, Patrick. Sorry for the ambiguity. The comparison was about things beyond employment.

No worries. It is an excellent comparison    Works on multiple levels.

 

I just wanted to point that out for some of the folks here that might not know (or be old enough to recall) Patrick Racing.

 

or might be thinking "Wow, I never knew Johncock was Foyt's teammate!"   

[FLB]

No worries. It is an excellent comparison    Works on multiple levels.

 

I just wanted to point that out for some of the folks here that might not know (or be old enough to recall) Patrick Racing.

 

or might be thinking "Wow, I never knew Johncock was Foyt's teammate!"   

Well, they know the current iteration of the original Patrick Racing*... or at least, the current iteration of some of its remains (i.e. Ganassi's lineage) 

 

* Because Patrick Racing had a second life starting in 1990, after Ganassi bought some of its assets.

Edited by FLB, 21 September 2024 - 16:45.

[red stick]

Championship standings finishes without comment:

 

Ericsson

2021  CGR  6th

2022  CGR  6th

2023  CGR  6th

2024  Andretti  15th

 

Rossi

2020  Andretti  9th

2021  Andretti  10th

2022  Andretti  9th

2023  McLaren  9th

2024  McLaren  10th

 

Herta, all Andretti

2020  3rd

2021  5th

2022  10th

2023  10th

2024  2nd

 

McLaughlin, all Penske

2021  14th

2022  4th

2023  3rd

2024  3rd

[Muppetmad]

I hadn't noticed quite how bad Ericsson's season was. He'll need to up his game next year if he wants to stay in the series after 2025, especially if he wants to continue being paid to drive.

Edited by Muppetmad, 21 September 2024 - 17:09.

[carbonfibre]

Ed gave him the boot!
https://racer.com/20...rpenter-racing/

I assume this means veekay won't be on the grid next year? Asking the more knowledgeable IndyCar fans here.

Seems a bit unfair too me.

[FLB]

I assume this means veekay won't be on the grid next year? Asking the more knowledgeable IndyCar fans here.

 

Not necessarily. There are very few seats still open, but Coyne's still are, as apparently is the second Juncos Hollinger. There's also the possibility of an Indy 500 one-off with the likes of Dreyer & Reinbold.

 

 

 

Seems a bit unfair too me.

 

You're not alone 

Edited by FLB, 21 September 2024 - 17:19.

[juicy sushi]

I think Prema now have a straight choice between Rossi and Veekay if they want a veteran driver next to Illot next year. If they don’t, I think they’re probably making a big mistake given they need data and direction if they want to make this work.

[red stick]

I assume this means veekay won't be on the grid next year? Asking the more knowledgeable IndyCar fans here.
Seems a bit unfair too me.

Word.

[Bloggsworth]

I can't be the only one to note the FBI raid on RL - Shades of Mclaren...

[FLB]

I can't be the only one to note the FBI raid on RL - Shades of Mclaren...

You're not. It's just that there are very few factual elements that have come out, at least for now. 

 

It's a situation in development. Early days still.

[juicy sushi]

I mean, there are a ton of posts in this thread if you’d looked…

[HistoryFan]

I never understand Ericsson for Rossi at Andretti.

[red stick]

Rossi wanted to move on.  A case of "beware what you ask for," perhaps.

[Lemnpiper]

Excellent comparison, though Gordon and Wally were teammates at Patrick.

 

 

    Keep in mind also that Dallenbach Sr took awhile to start getting those wins too.    Would he hold onto his seat nowdays? i kinda doubt it with this era of  gotta  produce or you're out.

 

 

   Paul

[Anja]

The charter program is now signed by every team and in effect. RACER has a good article of what it ultimately entails: https://racer.com/20...am-owners-sign/

 

- 25 charters are created, maximum 3 per team - there won't be any more and Prema is left out without them

- only charter entries are eligible to fight for the 22 Leaders Circle spots

- 27 is the new entry limit for races outside of the Indy 500, and it's expected to come down to 25 in the near future

- the charter entries are guaranteed a starting spot in every race outside of the Indy 500

- the "Dale Coyne rule" is approved after all - no entry can have more than 3 drivers during the year

Edited by Anja, 23 September 2024 - 14:36.

[PayasYouRace]

I hadn't noticed quite how bad Ericsson's season was. He'll need to up his game next year if he wants to stay in the series after 2025, especially if he wants to continue being paid to drive.

Seemed a bit odd given he was genuinely quick at Ganassi (much to my annoyance).

[nickp]

Why couldn’t they sell the 2 ganassi charters to prema? 

[juicy sushi]

I wonder if the desire to shrink the field down to 25 will be a way to "enourage" someone to merge with Prema in the near term.  Perhaps one of the smaller 2-car teams that might benefit from access to an organization with more significant technical resources.

[juicy sushi]

Why couldn’t they sell the 2 ganassi charters to prema? 

There were no Ganassi charters to sell.  Ganassi had 3 charters.  They have closed down the other two car entries.  Prema were not given a charter as they had not been involved in Indycar at any point in the past, which was the point.  The charters were there to reward long-term stakeholders, and Prema are not Indycar stakeholders.

[Frood]

I really think this'll be a big mistake for anyone who isn't a long-term team owner. Less opportunities for new teams. Less opportunities for fast youngsters who may not have backing. More chance for seat-blocking pay drivers like Robb and Simpson to extended their mediocre careers.

But hey, more dollar in the pocket of the old boys in charge, and that's what it's all about. It's business. My opinion is irrelevant.

Edited by Frood, 23 September 2024 - 15:11.

[juicy sushi]

I think it makes the grid a bit more sustainable, and over time you should see, assuming the smaller teams can manage it, an increasing level of self-funding.  At least, I think that's the idea.  With charters, new entrants cannot just buy cars, they need to invest into already existing teams, which will hopefully let the grid close up, eventually if the teams can get more sponsors, look at dropping the paying drivers.  

 

Yes, it is a bit of a cash grab for the team owners.  But they are the only ones who have kept this circus going in the very bleak period post merger, and I can get the motivation.  Some young drivers won't get their chance, but that would always be the case.  Being a destination series means that as drivers make careers there, seats fill up.  There will not be a constant input of new drivers as they have to displace incumbents.  That's always been the case.

[BRG]

It's sad that Indycar has to ape F1 in this way.  It would have been nice to think they were better than that.

[eibyyz]

Wonder how long it'll take for the I500 field to drop to 27 then 25, too.  I suppose we should be thankful to the Sun God Rajah that it isn't 20 cars...

Edited by eibyyz, 23 September 2024 - 18:31.

[Myrvold]

I think it makes the grid a bit more sustainable, and over time you should see, assuming the smaller teams can manage it, an increasing level of self-funding.  At least, I think that's the idea.  With charters, new entrants cannot just buy cars, they need to invest into already existing teams, which will hopefully let the grid close up, eventually if the teams can get more sponsors, look at dropping the paying drivers.  

 

Yes, it is a bit of a cash grab for the team owners.  But they are the only ones who have kept this circus going in the very bleak period post merger, and I can get the motivation.  Some young drivers won't get their chance, but that would always be the case.  Being a destination series means that as drivers make careers there, seats fill up.  There will not be a constant input of new drivers as they have to displace incumbents.  That's always been the case.

 

As I've said in the other thread. Unless something major happens, so they get a solid amount of more money coming in, I don't see how this makes it more sustainable.

 

It's like pissing in your pants in winter-time. Ye, you get warm when you do it, but then you get even colder. This feels like the same. Ye, they have a value now that they didn't have. Give it a couple of seasons, they've maxed out what they can towards their value and they are sitting with even more expenses.

[juicy sushi]

As I've said in the other thread. Unless something major happens, so they get a solid amount of more money coming in, I don't see how this makes it more sustainable.

 

It's like pissing in your pants in winter-time. Ye, you get warm when you do it, but then you get even colder. This feels like the same. Ye, they have a value now that they didn't have. Give it a couple of seasons, they've maxed out what they can towards their value and they are sitting with even more expenses.

That would depend on if they're trying to borrow against that value, or if they're trying to get investors to bring money in for a %.  If the former, they could indeed be left with very little to show for it.  If the latter, it can be a payday for some looking to exit, while enabling others to enter the series.

 

At this point it's not clear about any of that.  What is clear is that there is a now a 25-car club of entries guaranteed entry to every race except Indy, as well as a chance for $1 million assuming they can finish in the top 22 in points.  What the team owners do with that is entirely up to their own inventiveness.  

[MattPete]

I think Prema now have a straight choice between Rossi and Veekay if they want a veteran driver next to Illot next year. If they don’t, I think they’re probably making a big mistake given they need data and direction if they want to make this work.

I think they intended Illot to be their veteran.

[Risil]

That would depend on if they're trying to borrow against that value, or if they're trying to get investors to bring money in for a %. If the former, they could indeed be left with very little to show for it. If the latter, it can be a payday for some looking to exit, while enabling others to enter the series.

At this point it's not clear about any of that. What is clear is that there is a now a 25-car club of entries guaranteed entry to every race except Indy, as well as a chance for $1 million assuming they can finish in the top 22 in points. What the team owners do with that is entirely up to their own inventiveness.

If e.g. it gives sponsors more confidence to sign onto long-term deals with midsize teams, and those sponsors spend money on activation at tracks and publicizing Indycar in new places, then the whole enterprise will benefit.

[JG]

Re: Ericsson comments. Do you actually watch the races, or just look at the scoreboard after? Bad luck exist.

[jonpollak]

Anyone know if the much derided Coyne Rule was adopted into the Charter agreement?

Can’t find anything that confirms nor denies it.
Last I heard was all the teams, bar one, were against it.

Jp

[Anja]

Anyone know if the much derided Coyne Rule was adopted into the Charter agreement?

Can’t find anything that confirms nor denies it.
Last I heard was all the teams, bar one, were against it.

Jp

 

According to RACER, it was adopted into the program in the end. 

 

 

In some news, ECR has a new co-owner and plans to reveal their drivers tomorrow: https://www.edcarpen...products-group/

[Muppetmad]

Re: Ericsson comments. Do you actually watch the races, or just look at the scoreboard after? Bad luck exist.

I'm one of the IndyCar thread regulars, so yes, I watch the races. It's entirely possible I've forgotten/overlooked the extent of his bad luck though, so would you like to elaborate on that? I'd be very surprised if his bad luck was enough to account for him finishing outside the top 10 in the standings this year, but I'm open to being proven wrong.

[Risil]

I have a suspicion that Ericsson will tell you what the true level of your programme is. He won't cover over defiencies like you imagine a Pato O'Ward or Colton Herta could, but when Ganassi gave him good equipment he did it justice.

[juicy sushi]

I mean, plenty of drivers had bad luck while in decent positions all year.  Rossi and Malukas were the same.  But I cannot recall a single race where he was ripping through the field or a threat for a victory, unlike his teammates.

[juicy sushi]

According to RACER, it was adopted into the program in the end. 

 

 

In some news, ECR has a new co-owner and plans to reveal their drivers tomorrow: https://www.edcarpen...products-group/

Perhaps the first development of the charter era?  Seems like someone buying in now that the organization has a more valuable property they can buy a part of.  Also, probably the kind of extra investment ECR will need if they're going to make the climb back to respectability.

[Risil]

Indiana businessman Ted Glove!

[jonpollak]

According to RACER, it was adopted into the program in the end.

Well, THAT SUCKS !!!
Makes our $18 fantasy picks really boring.

Jp

[jonpollak]

Indiana businessman Ted Glove!

What a SPLENDA signing!!!

(And no it’s not a typo)
Jp

[loki]

It's sad that Indycar has to ape F1 in this way.  It would have been nice to think they were better than that.

You misspelled Nascar…

[loki]

What a SPLENDA signing!!!

(And no it’s not a typo)
Jp

 

G Love?  I hope he brings the Special Sauce…

[FLB]

What a SPLENDA signing!!!

(And no it’s not a typo)
Jp

Will Long's make a special donut if the team does well next May?

 

Peppermint Chocolate Donuts - Splenda®