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[readonly]

Proposal: Implementation of a Dual Start/Finish Line System in Formula 1 to Optimize Qualifying and Fastest Lap Strategies

Objective: The proposal aims to introduce a dual start/finish line system within the framework of Formula 1 to enhance strategic opportunities during qualifying and race sessions, specifically increasing the frequency of competitive fastest lap attempts. The traditional start/finish line will be retained for race starts and official lap counting, while a secondary start/finish line, strategically positioned near the pit entry, will be utilized for timing during qualifying and for fastest lap assessments in the race.

1. Qualifying Session Modifications:
- A secondary start/finish line will be installed proximal to the pit entry, positioned to facilitate immediate deceleration into the pit lane post-hot lap. This placement is critical for maintaining the flow of traffic and reducing unnecessary inlap times.
- Drivers will complete an almost full warm-up outlap to optimize tire and brake temperatures prior to initiating the flying lap from this new start/finish line.
- Following the conclusion of the flying lap, drivers will be directed immediately into the pit lane, bypassing the need for a full cool-down lap, thus minimizing tire degradation and maximizing session efficiency.
- This adjustment allows for a greater number of timed attempts within the allotted session duration, improving the likelihood of competitive lap times without the need for full inlaps, optimizing tire management, and providing superior control over vehicle dynamics during hot laps.

2. Race Timing Adjustments:
- The primary start/finish line will continue to be utilized for the race start and for official lap counting throughout the race.
- Fastest lap timings will be recorded based on the secondary start/finish line near the pit entry.
- By initiating lap timing at the secondary start/finish line, pit stops will now only penalize one lap (the pit-in lap).

3. Fastest Lap Strategy Enhancements:
- The strategic advantage of this system is the ability for teams to optimize their pit stops late in the race without sacrificing two full laps (inlap and outlap) for a fastest lap attempt. Only the pit-in lap will be compromised, while the shorter outlap enhances the driver's ability to quickly get up to pace for a fastest lap attempt.
- Teams can capitalize on tire compounds specifically selected for fastest lap attempts with minimal impact on the overall race strategy, allowing more frequent and competitive attempts for the fastest lap point.

4. Technical and Operational Considerations:
- The FIA timing system will require recalibration to recognize both the primary start/finish line for race lap counting and the secondary start/finish line for fastest lap measurement and qualifying times.
- The secondary start/finish line will require careful location to ensure that drivers can slow down sufficiently to enter the pit lane.

- It will be necessary to review marshal deployment.

5. Summary of Key Advantages:
- **Qualifying Optimization**: Increased frequency of hot lap attempts, sufficient tire and brake preparation during the outlap, and reduced tire wear through elimination of inlaps.
- **Race Strategy Flexibility**: More opportunities for fastest lap attempts, as pit stops only affect one lap instead of two, thus enhancing strategic pit timing and tire usage.
- **Improved Session Flow**: Reduced traffic congestion during inlaps and outlaps, leading to a cleaner race flow, particularly in qualifying, and providing drivers with clearer windows for competitive laps.
- **Enhanced Viewer Engagement**: The higher frequency of fastest lap attempts towards the end of the race adds a layer of tactical excitement for spectators and broadcasters alike.
 

[Rob G]

I actually proposed pretty much the same thing for qualifying years ago, but I think it was in response to slowpokes getting in the way of drivers on their hot laps and the resulting risk of huge accidents. It was a long time ago, but I might have suggested the line at the end of the second sector as the beginning and end of the hot lap. IndyCar has done this for many years, so why doesn't F1?

[arrysen]

Personally, I'd say definitely not during races - even with the capability of current technology, having 2 timing lines in use for different purposes during a race is fraught with risk & potential for protests etc and best left alone IMHO.

 

I know that Indycar does it but when I watch Indycar sessions I find it unconvincing and contrived - for sure makes it easier for drivers/teams on the face of it but F1 has always been the ultimate challenge, the pinnacle, the most intense series in the sport and the approach has always been that if something is difficult, then teams need to rise to the challenge and deal with that difficulty to show their mettle.

 

So, I'm a hard "no" to this idea for F1, sorry.

[PayasYouRace]

Indycar has used a secondary timing line before the pit entry for decades at this point. It’s a great idea and works well becuase it removes the need for an in lap. The OP is almost making a meal of how simple it would be to implement for practice and qualifying.

 

Personally, I'd say definitely not during races - even with the capability of current technology, having 2 timing lines in use for different purposes during a race is fraught with risk & potential for protests etc and best left alone IMHO.

 

I know that Indycar does it but when I watch Indycar sessions I find it unconvincing and contrived - for sure makes it easier for drivers/teams on the face of it but F1 has always been the ultimate challenge, the pinnacle, the most intense series in the sport and the approach has always been that if something is difficult, then teams need to rise to the challenge and deal with that difficulty to show their mettle.

 

So, I'm a hard "no" to this idea for F1, sorry.

It doesn’t remove any challenge so I don’t know what your objection is.

[Jackmancer]

OP is Ron Dennis?

[Anja]

Personally, I'd say definitely not during races - even with the capability of current technology, having 2 timing lines in use for different purposes during a race is fraught with risk & potential for protests etc and best left alone IMHO.

 

I know that Indycar does it but when I watch Indycar sessions I find it unconvincing and contrived - for sure makes it easier for drivers/teams on the face of it but F1 has always been the ultimate challenge, the pinnacle, the most intense series in the sport and the approach has always been that if something is difficult, then teams need to rise to the challenge and deal with that difficulty to show their mettle.

 

So, I'm a hard "no" to this idea for F1, sorry.

 

What are you even talking about. The qualifying is all about driving as quick of a lap as you possibly can. That's what everyone wants to see, that's the exciting part - a rare moment of drivers and cars pushed to the limit, for once without concern about saving tyres etc. Having to avoid slow cars and potentially getting hindered by them does nothing but ruin that, it's not "a challenge" in this particular session - while navigating traffic is a skill that can be important in races (maybe less so in F1, but crucial in endurance racing), traffic only makes qualifying worse. 

 

The IndyCar solution is perfectly simple and works without any issues. Literally zero downsides. 

Edited by Anja, 29 September 2024 - 08:50.

[ANF]

In qualifying, YES, excellent idea!

In the race, NO! Points for fastest lap should be abolished!

[noikeee]

OP is Ron Dennis?

Seriously. I'm really struggling to decode the maze that the opening post is. Please confirm if my translation is right, "how about we put the start/finish line just before pit entry only for qualifying?".

Edited by noikeee, 29 September 2024 - 09:02.

[F1 Mike]

OP is Ron Dennis?

It is very very Ron Dennisy

[GlenWatkins]

Seriously. I'm really struggling to decode the maze that the opening post is. Please confirm if my translation is right, "how about we put the start/finish line just before pit entry only for qualifying?".

I'm struggling with the fact that anyone would vote 'never' to just try it out.  Those who voted 'never' need to watch an IndyCar qualifying session to see how much better placing the start/finish line just before pit entry is.

Edited by GlenWatkins, 29 September 2024 - 10:55.

[Peat]

I have always imagined that F1 would veto it because (they are loathed to adopt ideas they haven't invented) the teams would say they need the full cool down lap to manage temps and battery levels. 

[Myrvold]

"For qualifying; lap-time will start and end at the sector 3 line".

There. Sorted.

Edited by Myrvold, 29 September 2024 - 12:12.

[Myrvold]

I have always imagined that F1 would veto it because (they are loathed to adopt ideas they haven't invented) the teams would say they need the full cool down lap to manage temps and battery levels.

Until enough time has passed to make it look like their idea (e.g two mandatory compounds & the yellow/red flag in qualifying "experiment" the use in support series )

[Cig35]

The problem with the proposed alternate start/finish line for F1 in qualifying is that they need both the inlap and the outlap to fully charge the batteries in preparation for the hotlap. Otherwise I would fully support it.

[arrysen]

Indycar has used a secondary timing line before the pit entry for decades at this point. It’s a great idea and works well becuase it removes the need for an in lap. The OP is almost making a meal of how simple it would be to implement for practice and qualifying.

 

It doesn’t remove any challenge so I don’t know what your objection is.

Of course it removes challenge - for example challenges such as getting the tyres in the right window, despite other cars also heading out and also on their in laps, the challenge of picking gaps to allow big laps in Qual whilst working around slower traffic on out and in laps (& sometimes wanting to be in a position to get a tow from them, even if partial) and the challenge of maximising battery power for big laps, which both the out and in laps are used to generate. That's just a few, straight off the top of my head.

[arrysen]

What are you even talking about. The qualifying is all about driving as quick of a lap as you possibly can. That's what everyone wants to see, that's the exciting part - a rare moment of drivers and cars pushed to the limit, for once without concern about saving tyres etc. Having to avoid slow cars and potentially getting hindered by them does nothing but ruin that, it's not "a challenge" in this particular session - while navigating traffic is a skill that can be important in races (maybe less so in F1, but crucial in endurance racing), traffic only makes qualifying worse. 

 

The IndyCar solution is perfectly simple and works without any issues. Literally zero downsides. 

Dealing with traffic and finding gaps in qualifying has ALWAYS been part of the challenge in F1 (in many other series too) and is still a challenge in Indycar for that matter. The nail-biting nature of qualifying in Monaco has always been one of the special things about the place and the biggest factor that makes it a nail-biter is dealing with traffic. Dealing with traffic is most definitely not something that matters only during races and never has been.

 

As I said, I watch Indycar and in my view, the solution used feels gimmicky and "try hard" and takes away from the challenge.

Edited by arrysen, 29 September 2024 - 12:38.

[PayasYouRace]

The problem with the proposed alternate start/finish line for F1 in qualifying is that they need both the inlap and the outlap to fully charge the batteries in preparation for the hotlap. Otherwise I would fully support it.

They don’t need to charge the batteries on the in lap.

 

Why not just charge the batteries from a cable in the garage?

[GlenWatkins]

Of course it removes challenge - for example challenges such as getting the tyres in the right window, despite other cars also heading out and also on their in laps, the challenge of picking gaps to allow big laps in Qual whilst working around slower traffic on out and in laps (& sometimes wanting to be in a position to get a tow from them, even if partial) and the challenge of maximising battery power for big laps, which both the out and in laps are used to generate. That's just a few, straight off the top of my head.

All of those challenges are there for IndyCar as well, and the teams and drivers manage just fine without the cool down lap.

[Muppetmad]

The IndyCar solution is optimal. I'm afraid the argument against it is one that doesn't convince me at all.

[arrysen]

All of those challenges are there for IndyCar as well, and the teams and drivers manage just fine without the cool down lap.

Yep - of course they manage just fine without the cool down lap - one of my points entirely - having the in lap & managing it presents a greater challenge, not having it makes the process easier to manage, so any good team will manage just fine without it.

[SenorSjon]

Personally, I'd say definitely not during races - even with the capability of current technology, having 2 timing lines in use for different purposes during a race is fraught with risk & potential for protests etc and best left alone IMHO.

 

I know that Indycar does it but when I watch Indycar sessions I find it unconvincing and contrived - for sure makes it easier for drivers/teams on the face of it but F1 has always been the ultimate challenge, the pinnacle, the most intense series in the sport and the approach has always been that if something is difficult, then teams need to rise to the challenge and deal with that difficulty to show their mettle.

 

So, I'm a hard "no" to this idea for F1, sorry.

 

That is more due to the Indycar graphics being next to useless. You'll never see a running time with the car in view. Likewise on ovals you don't see elapsed time, only average speed every lap. So you still don't know much in between. There is a world to win there when they finally leave the early 90's with this.

 

 

The timing line the straight BEFORE pit entry makes everything so much easier.  It makes so much sense, F1 won't do it.

[LolaB0860]

Qualifying:

"I guess they could try it" (But I think there are more many other more urgent things to fix in qualifying)

 

Race:

No

Edited by LolaB0860, 29 September 2024 - 13:23.

[PayasYouRace]

Yep - of course they manage just fine without the cool down lap - one of my points entirely - having the in lap & managing it presents a greater challenge, not having it makes the process easier to manage, so any good team will manage just fine without it.

Why is managing an in lap more challenging than not having an in lap and managing that?

This “challenge” argument is very weak. We want the drivers challenged competitively. In laps are not a competitive element of the sport.

[ANF]

"For qualifying; lap-time will start and end at the sector 3 line".

There. Sorted.

Or at SC Line 1...

[arrysen]

That is more due to the Indycar graphics being next to useless. You'll never see a running time with the car in view. Likewise on ovals you don't see elapsed time, only average speed every lap. So you still don't know much in between. There is a world to win there when they finally leave the early 90's with this.

 

 

The timing line the straight BEFORE pit entry makes everything so much easier.  It makes so much sense, F1 won't do it.

If it works for Indycar, good on them, but I disagree that it's the "go" for F1. We are entitled to different points of view and personally, I'm voting "no" to this idea.

[arrysen]

Why is managing an in lap more challenging than not having an in lap and managing that?

This “challenge” argument is very weak. We want the drivers challenged competitively. In laps are not a competitive element of the sport.

Massive difference between managing and in lap and not having one - simply massive. If you can't see it or don't get it then fair enough but to me it's very much part of the competitive challenge that is F1 qualifying. 

[PlatenGlass]

What is there to manage on an in lap?

[FLB]

Isn't this the way it used to be at Magny Cours?

[PayasYouRace]

Massive difference between managing and in lap and not having one - simply massive. If you can't see it or don't get it then fair enough but to me it's very much part of the competitive challenge that is F1 qualifying. 

It’s not though. There’s no competitive element to an in lap.

[PayasYouRace]

Isn't this the way it used to be at Magny Cours?

No. The S/F line was where you’d expect it to be on the front straight, and in both configurations, the pit entrants was before the last corner.

[Risil]

The problem with the proposed alternate start/finish line for F1 in qualifying is that they need both the inlap and the outlap to fully charge the batteries in preparation for the hotlap. Otherwise I would fully support it.

I'm possibly being naive here but why would they be charging the battery on the in-lap? They're heading back to the pits at that point. Is it preparation for when they go out next?

[Risil]

No. The S/F line was where you’d expect it to be on the front straight, and in both configurations, the pit entrants was before the last corner.

There were a few tracks where the startline and the pits were in different places (from memory Anderstorp, Long Beach, possibly at times Monaco and Spa). How did they manage qualifying? Presumably timing would still have been done from the pits because that's where the people with stopwatches would've been?

[PayasYouRace]

There were a few tracks where the startline and the pits were in different places (from memory Anderstorp, Long Beach, possibly at times Monaco and Spa). How did they manage qualifying? Presumably timing would still have been done from the pits because that's where the people with stopwatches would've been?

Not sure about Anderstorp, but as far as I’m aware the timing was done on the S/F line and not the short put straight. Though different today as the S/F is on the pit straight nowadays. 
 

Long Beach is an interesting one, as between 1978 and 1982 only the start was on Shoreline Drive, and the finish line, pits and all were in Ocean Boulevard. Only in 1983 did everything move to a Shoreline Drive.

 

I know the finish line was still in the old place at Spa in 1983, but not sure how that affected timing.

 

In the only days the offices timekeepers weren’t necessarily in the pits. Sometimes they’d be in old buses or whatever makeshift facilities the circuit had provided.

[GlenWatkins]

I'm possibly being naive here but why would they be charging the battery on the in-lap? They're heading back to the pits at that point. Is it preparation for when they go out next?

I always assumed that teams couldn't recharge in the pits?

[PayasYouRace]

I always assumed that teams couldn't recharge in the pits?

Even if they aren’t allowed to now, why not change that and let them, seeing as were changing stuff?

[GlenWatkins]

Even if they aren’t allowed to now, why not change that and let them, seeing as were changing stuff?

Totally agree.

[readonly]

Drivers would still be free to be out on the track for as many laps they wish. Going to the pit after a hot lap would just be a new option.

[Clatter]

Even if they aren’t allowed to now, why not change that and let them, seeing as were changing stuff?

Would they need to change it? Assuming they don't charge in the pit, then the out lap is clearly enough to charge for a Q lap.

[Grippy]

I'd have no objection to it being applied for qualifying as qually format has changed a lot over the years anyway ( single car shoot-outs etc).

Not so keen on changing it for the race as getting fastest lap shouldn't be made easier than it is.

[Cig35]

I'm possibly being naive here but why would they be charging the battery on the in-lap? They're heading back to the pits at that point. Is it preparation for when they go out next?

Since they currently don't have possibility to charge in the pits, and even if it is possible to fully charge the battey during an outlap on most circuits they really want to focus on the tire temps and also the brake temps on the outlap, and if they at the same time have to optimize the charging it may be a distraction from that or even disturb that preparation. So it would add an additional challenge but do we need to take away everything that might be a challenge? So having thought about it a bit longer, I would say that I would like to see the alternate start/finish line for qualifying. 

[SenorSjon]

I rather have cars out of the way then a bonus recharge lap. Besides, I think they have more battery power stored than they are allowed to use per lap anyway.

[CharlesWinstone]

nr 1 looks like a good idea.

[tempname11]

Seriously. I'm really struggling to decode the maze that the opening post is. Please confirm if my translation is right, "how about we put the start/finish line just before pit entry only for qualifying?".

The OP was obviously AI-generated from a shorter prompt like your description. Brace yourselves, this kind of thing is going to get more and more pervasive.

[pacificquay]

An attempt to solve a problem that doesn't exist

[PayasYouRace]

An attempt to solve a problem that doesn't exist

Drivers getting their qualifying laps ruined by slow traffic is a problem, and eliminating in laps for “in corners” does wonders to reduce that problem.

[1player]

I skimmed the OP and I still don't get it. What problem would that solve?

[GlenWatkins]

Moving the qually start/finish line before the pit entrance allows drivers to skip the cool down lap.

[DS27]

I'm at a loss as to why anyone would be against this.

[PayasYouRace]

It would work really well at Monaco. You could have the timing line between the Swimming Pool and La Rascasse, in front of the big grandstand.

[onemoresolo]

I skimmed the OP and I still don't get it. What problem would that solve?

 

50% less traffic for those on hot laps.