36 replies to this topic

[chr1s]

I came across a film of a 1978 demo run for the Birmingham Super Prix on YouTube and was surprised to see a Ferrari 312T in amongst the various cars. But there was something not quite right about it. At first glance it looks like a T2, (no airbox) but it doesn't have the air intakes on the front of the cockpit either!  On closer inspection it appears to have the 1975 style cockpit surround but without the airbox. Does anyone know anything about this car?  Was it in England at the time, what chassis number was it  and who modified the cockpit surround and why? And what became of it?

[Bloggsworth]

Where on YouTube - Link?

[Jahn1234567890]

I would assume this video. The Ferrari appears around 1:12

 

[BRG]

As it bears no 11 (as well as another number probably just for B'ham) it ought to be a 1975 312T.  Regazzoni used no 11 that year so it is presumably a chassis he used, although it looks as if both drivers at some point drove each of the five 312Ts that were raced.  You might think using Lauda's number 12 would be more attractive to a collector.

 

According to Allen Brown's site oldracingcars.com, all five surviving cars went into private ownership.  There was one went to a British collector (Mike Vernon) so possibly it was that chassis. No idea about the bodywork though. Maybe it was used as a test hack for the 1976 312T2?

[jtremlett]

It is mentioned here https://tentenths.co...ad.php?t=115106 as having both Lauda and Regazzoni's names on it but, unfortunately, the photos are long gone.  The presenter here https://www.facebook...683566198427359 is sitting in it but it isn't shown very clearly.

[bigears]

It is the #11 1976 Ferrari driven by Niki Lauda with Michael Vernon driving it as #203 at the Birmingham On The Streets parade

Hope the link works:
https://drive.google...P7L0lb7ToTnzwhA
Credits to Jon Jones.

https://drive.google...mx4dhyCz5KmOqxQ
Credits to John E.Porter (I apologise it is very dark, it came out like that and I don’t have photo editing software)

[jtremlett]

It is the #11 1976 Ferrari driven by Niki Lauda with Michael Vernon driving it as #203 at the Birmingham On The Streets parade

Hope the link works:
https://drive.google...P7L0lb7ToTnzwhA
Credits to Jon Jones.

https://drive.google...mx4dhyCz5KmOqxQ
Credits to John E.Porter (I apologise it is very dark, it came out like that and I don’t have photo editing software)

The links say "you need access".

 

Michael Vernon owed 312 T s/n 022 which was used by both Lauda and Regazzoni in 1975 and early 1976, so that all makes sense.  It doesn't really answer about the unusual bodywork, however, as I think the tall airboxes were still used and legal up to the Spanish Grand Prix in 1976.  Perhaps it had alternative bodywork so it could be used as a spare car for later races if needed or just for testing in advance of the T2.  Gooding & Co sold it 2019 and it was displayed then with standard high airbox bodywork.  It doesn't look like the auction catalogue is on their website to see if there is any mention of alternative bodywork/engine cover.

[Vitesse2]

The links say "you need access".

Yes, the images are private, so can only be seen by someone with an authorisation link. Instructions on how to make them public here: https://support.excl...ng-Google-Drive

[bigears]

I do apologise, I think I have enabled access so it can be seen now, I hope.

 

Another image from the 1980 Birmingham On The Streets parade programme:

 

https://drive.google...pB03P5CUZguQIdQ

 

https://drive.google...6enUDbKOKjCOoRw

 

I might have a few more so I will keep digging. Michael Vernon took part in the demo with his HBM Ferrari Racing with the Ferrari 312T car. That's the info I got about the car.

 

But interestingly, according to the Motor magazine (18/11/1978) it stated that the Ferrari was driven by Bob Evans.

[chr1s]

No idea about the bodywork though. Maybe it was used as a test hack for the 1976 312T2?

I think this is probably the most plausible explanation, either that or it was altered by Ferrari before it was sold to make it look more contemporary? Either way, in bigears pictures it does seem to have a "factory look" about it rather than home made!

[chr1s]

Just tried googling  Ferrari 312T2 Prototipo, (which I probably should have done before I started the topic) and found a black and white picture of Regazzoni testing at Fiorano with what looks to be the same bodywork configuration.

I guess at some point over the intervening years, maybe during a restoration, it was put  back to its original 1975 configuration. 

    I 

[Doug Nye]

If I recall correctly Michael Vernon owned and ran a number of hair dressing salons.  He proved to be one of the last of the 'middling wealthy' Ferrari owner/collectors before market values rocketed into the multi-zillionaire stratum.  His cars included a 312PB which he ran quite often, this 312 variant and extended back to an ex-AC Argentina front-engined single-seater which when we examined it had had its chassis frame sliced up into a number of tube lengths, each about 18-inches long (only); a very puzzling way to ship or to conserve any historic artefact...

 

DCN

[GregThomas]

If I recall correctly Michael Vernon owned and ran a number of hair dressing salons.  He proved to be one of the last of the 'middling wealthy' Ferrari owner/collectors before market values rocketed into the multi-zillionaire stratum.  His cars included a 312PB which he ran quite often, this 312 variant and extended back to an ex-AC Argentina front-engined single-seater which when we examined it had had its chassis frame sliced up into a number of tube lengths, each about 18-inches long (only); a very puzzling way to ship or to conserve any historic artefact...

 

DCN

 

Makes you wonder if it was shipped in suitcases.

[Henk Vasmel]

I did a qick check of the use of 312T cars after the Spanish GP in 1976. 

018 and possibly 023 were present in Spain as spare cars but not used.

018 (or maybe 023) was present in Belgium and used as spare car by Lauda.

023 was present in Italy and used as spare car by Regazzoni.

This points to the possibility that a modified cockpit cover was created for 023.

 

There remains one thing that makes me wonder, though. WIth the high airbox, air for the engine was supplied through the hole above the drivers head. For the 312T2, this was replaced by the two (white) air inlets in front of the driver. In 1977 reduced in size, so maybe a bit too much. But the 312T/Low Airbox has neither. That might make the engine a bit short of breath, or am I missing something.

[Doug Nye]

What you are missing is that Mr Vernon almost certainly never really approached 'racing speeds' in the car...

 

When a well-known ex-F1 driver turned (actually rather good) TV F1 pundit drove the ex-Graham Hill BRM P578 'Old Faithful' he professed to me quite bitter disappointment that it felt "so under powered compared to what I expected of those cars".

 

Just for once I very gently explained to him that, as a museum car prepared for long-term preservation (and survival) used only for occasional demonstration runs, its V8 engine had been rebuilt to a very conservative de-tuned spec.  

 

Such a consideration appeared not to have occurred to him.  Which was perfectly understandable.  He was, after all, a recent-times Racer - and it's a familiar fact that very few Racers have much imagination...

 

DCN

[chr1s]

 

There remains one thing that makes me wonder, though. WIth the high airbox, air for the engine was supplied through the hole above the drivers head. For the 312T2, this was replaced by the two (white) air inlets in front of the driver. In 1977 reduced in size, so maybe a bit too much. But the 312T/Low Airbox has neither. That might make the engine a bit short of breath, or am I missing something.

But then the 1978 312T3 had no visible air intakes either....

[Henk Vasmel]

What you are missing is that Mr Vernon almost certainly never really approached 'racing speeds' in the car...

 

When a well-known ex-F1 driver turned (actually rather good) TV F1 pundit drove the ex-Graham Hill BRM P578 'Old Faithful' he professed to me quite bitter disappointment that it felt "so under powered compared to what I expected of those cars".

 

Just for once I very gently explained to him that, as a museum car prepared for long-term preservation (and survival) used only for occasional demonstration runs, its V8 engine had been rebuilt to a very conservative de-tuned spec.  

 

Such a consideration appeared not to have occurred to him.  Which was perfectly understandable.  He was, after all, a recent-times Racer - and it's a familiar fact that very few Racers have much imagination...

 

DCN

I agree with your story, but I was referring to the (2) occasions that a 312T had been used as a spare car in 1976 (after Jarama). It must have hade a low airbox, for it to be able to do so. The Mr. Vernon's car cockpit surround is looking very much like a 312T one, lowered at the back. Now it is possible that the spare cars, back then made use of a 312T2 cockpit surround back then. If only someone can come up with a photo of that. I do not believe that Ferrari deliberately used an underpowered car as a spare car, back in 1976 (a (potential) champonship year). So still a bit of a mystery there, but concentrating on the 1976 season and not later years.
 

PS. I love these puzzles, especially when together we can dig up the truth.

[Doug Nye]

Sorry Henk - of course I wasn't suggesting in any way that the Ferrari in question would have been prepared in de-tuned form IN PERIOD.  No way.  But post-career retired F1 cars in collectors' hands have been very seldom extended very much in demonstration running and it has been common for non-racing owners either have nothing done whatsoever to reinvigorate an already tired engine, or - if the wallet will not stand unnecessary risk - to have their engines prepared more for long-term survival than as a one-race Bomba!

 

Different strokes for different folks.

 

DCN

[GazChed]

Sorry Henk - of course I wasn't suggesting in any way that the Ferrari in question would have been prepared in de-tuned form IN PERIOD. No way. But post-career retired F1 cars in collectors' hands have been very seldom extended very much in demonstration running and it has been common for non-racing owners either have nothing done whatsoever to reinvigorate an already tired engine, or - if the wallet will not stand unnecessary risk - to have their engines prepared more for long-term survival than as a one-race Bomba!

Different strokes for different folks.

DCN

Demonstrations or 'test sessions' in priceless ex-Grand Prix cars can still be very hazardous whether the engines have been de-tuned or not. I recall on my first visit to the Formula Two International at Thruxton in 1976, a demonstration of a Ferrari 312B3 owned by Michael Vernon and driven by Louis Lorenzini. All went well at Thruxton but the following year a test at Silverstone ended when Louis went into a barrier backwards leaving the rear end somewhat deranged.

[Tim Murray]

… and sometimes this can happen:

[PeterElleray]

But then the 1978 312T3 had no visible air intakes either....

yes, as raced, although the ducts were built into the roof of the sidepods and fed from the radiator intakes at the front of the pods. But the T2 intakes , and the test versions of the T2 intakes used on the T all had the ducting down the cockpit sides - and its not clear to me how the cockpit surround seen here could feed air into those ducts.

[funformula]

The Regazzoni prototipo with air intakes at both sides of the roll hoop

 

 

 

A slightly different one with Lauda at the wheel and the air intakes on top of the sidepods

Pin page (pinterest.com)

[chr1s]

 

 

A slightly different one with Lauda at the wheel and the air intakes on top of the sidepods

Pin page (pinterest.com)

This is interesting as the air intakes in this picture are built into the upper surface of the car, separate from the cockpit surround, which may well be the same one that found its way onto Mr Vernons car?

[Myhinpaa]

Demonstrations or 'test sessions' in priceless ex-Grand Prix cars can still be very hazardous whether the engines have been de-tuned or not. I recall on my first visit to the Formula Two International at Thruxton in 1976, a demonstration of a Ferrari 312B3 owned by Michael Vernon and driven by Louis Lorenzini. All went well at Thruxton but the following year a test at Silverstone ended when Louis went into a barrier backwards leaving the rear end somewhat deranged.

 

 

https://www.simonlew...s/ferrariB3.JPG

 

From this thread: https://forums.autos...ris-in-the-70s/

Edited by Myhinpaa, 03 October 2024 - 16:22.

[68targa]

There is a higher quality video of the Birmingham parade previewing the event and with the Ferrari 312T clearly shown.  Courtesy of BBC Rewind

 

https://bbcrewind.co... racing&size=30

[PeterElleray]

There is a higher quality video of the Birmingham parade previewing the event and with the Ferrari 312T clearly shown.  Courtesy of BBC Rewind

 

https://bbcrewind.co... racing&size=30

that's quite helpful. in the video it looks like a 75 cockpit surround (no nostril intakes covered or partially covered as on the T2's) modified at the rear of the cockpit into something closer to the T2 shape. closer to the Lauda or Regazzoni test photos shown above. 

[TecnoRacing]

Grabbed screenshots from the two Birmingham videos (posted by OP chr1s, and 68targa) just to make it easier to see everything at once   

 

 

 

 

 

[chr1s]

The second of Tecnos' pictures is interesting, as it shows a pronounced "step" at the bottom outer edge of the engine cover where it meets the upper surface of the car, instead of blending in as it does on the regular 1975 and 76' cars, as if it was intended to match up to some other kind of bodywork or air intake arrangement?

[BRG]

Posted in the How to Post Images thread, but I think it belongs here as well?

 

I have found a picture from the Belgian GP in 1976, courtesy of Autosprint, where there is an alternative cockpit cover for a Ferrari. Since it doesn't look like a 312T2, it might well be the 312T Spare car which was used at that race.

If this is the 1976 Cockpit cover for the 312T after the tall airboxes were outlawed, it doesn't match the later Vernon Ferrari.

It supports my theory of feeding air to the engine.

Maybe more tomorrow when I get to the Italian GP 1976. (I hope so)

[Henk Vasmel]

Posted in the How to Post Images thread, but I think it belongs here as well?

Sorry, a mistake from my side (of course) I had that thread open to check how to post images, and forgot to switch back to this one. Of course it belongs here. Thanks for the help, BRG     

[Henk Vasmel]

I told you yesterday that I was expecting the Italian GP '76 giving more information. Indeed it did.

 

First: Niki Lauda at Fiorano, just before the I-GP

 

A better picture, presumably that same day

 

And another one. Since there is no starting number, I presume Fiorano again.

 

And finally, to remind some of you what a real 1976 312T2 should look like

 

This after all is no proof that this is the (spare) 312T that had to be given a legal height in 1976 after the E-GP, but for me, I am convinced.

Now if we compare this with the Vernon Cockpit cover, that one is different. So there still is a story to uncover.

[Doug Nye]

There appears to be an assumption here that "the Vernon car" was preserved in later life in the form in which it was run by Ferrari as a works car - this form extending to its detachable body panelling.

 

That is one tremendous assumption and it is not founded in reality.  

 

Ferrari sold off its ex-works cars of the 1970s in a form normally reflecting whatever bits they could select from their redundant stock which were considered re-usable in some form.  It is evident that even some chassis identities were swapped between monocoques to suit a sales pitch to a customer - as in the case of the 312B bought by Tom Wheatcroft for the Donington Collection (which I collected for him from the Assistenza in Modena and for years afterward naively assumed it to be what they had said it was...).

 

With regret, I would assure you any assumption that mere body panelling attached to a chassis defines that chassis' historical identity is equally naive.

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 13 October 2024 - 07:03.

[Myhinpaa]

From: https://www.oldracin...m/ferrari/312b/

 

"The other two 312Bs, chassis 003 and 004, became swapped at some point in their lives, and were sold by Ferrari with the wrong identities. Chassis 003 - but with the identity of 004 - was sold to American Ferrari dealer NART owner Luigi Chinetti. Many owners later, it is now in Italy but has been heavily restored so that it can be used in historic racing. The final car, chassis 312B/004 but with the identity of 003, was sold to Tom Wheatcroft for his Donington Museum where it was very carefully preserved until sold to a private collection after Wheatcroft's death. Despite very compelling evidence from chassis stampings and rivet patterns that 003 and 004 are the wrong way round, Ferrari Classiche are not swayed, and continue to maintain that the cars are as they were sold......"

[Henk Vasmel]

The only assumption I made is that a lowline (to mis-use a Cooper term) 312T would be so rare and unimportant, that only one shape of cockpit surround would exist.

Picture evidence shows at least 3 different shapes.

Especially the Vernon 312T is different from the others (more like pure 312T at the front), so it must probably have had a different source.

Although racing cars cannot be cloned, thet are usually sufficiently equal that body parts can be swapped, so that alone is never a proof of a car's identity.

Possibly the Vernon car came to this solution, because it suggest 312T rather than 312T2, which it isn't.

Could we find anyone involved in that al those years ago, or is it a hopeless exercise?

 

The Ferrari one in Belgium/Fiorano is quite probably a 312T. Other pictures could be early development for the T2, before the well known final shape appeared.

Edited by Henk Vasmel, 13 October 2024 - 10:26.

[PeterElleray]

The second of Tecnos' pictures is interesting, as it shows a pronounced "step" at the bottom outer edge of the engine cover where it meets the upper surface of the car, instead of blending in as it does on the regular 1975 and 76' cars, as if it was intended to match up to some other kind of bodywork or air intake arrangement?

If you mean the 'bermp' on the flat deck immediately above where the intake trumpets are positioned, directly below wher the original tall airbox sat, all the T's had that feature. It was added after  early testing where the original 'smooth' body was restricting the airflow into those trumpets.

[chr1s]

Thank you to everyone who took the trouble to contribute to this topic. Considering the amount of photographs unearthed of the various cockpit / air intake arrangements that were tested around that period, I think it is safe to say that the cockpit on the car in question was made by the factory, rather than subsequently by some other third party, which was the thrust of my original question. 

 

Chris. 

[Henk Vasmel]

Take a look here for some more pictures:

https://www.autodiva...=5333&start=840

Some pictures we have seen here and some new ones. Not clear whether they are 312T or 312T2. There is an easy way to tell the difference, but the pictures don't show that.
there is a fuel filler cover (?) on top of the sidepods which is straight forward on the T and pointing inwards on the T2 (Courtesy of Tamiya and Protar, but seen on pictures since then)

I am not sure if you have to register, though.