131 replies to this topic

[1player]

There's plenty of nostalgia and rose-tinted glasses in the world of motorsports, but if you have to look objectively at older races, is there anything modern F1 is doing much better?

 

I have recently watched Belgium 1998, and a few things, some very controversial, come to mind:

• V10 sound great, mean and fast. 2 hours of V10 screaming in my ears watching an older race is hell. It might also be because of subpar mixing.
• TV direction was abysmal and quite amateurish, many crappy jump cuts lasting less than 2 seconds. The Netflix era has also brought better TV direction.
• On-screen graphics were not that useful. With so many cars on track, real-time deltas are a must to understand what's going on outside of the leading car. That said, many on-screen graphics today are extremely silly and just a vehicle to promote AWS.
• The beloved Murray Walker made as many mistakes as Crofty does today.
• The average quality of drivers of the grid has improved massively, especially on the bottom end.

Mind you, there are MANY things older F1 did better, but the point of this thread is to dispel some of the myths that older = better. What do you not miss from your favourite era of F1?

[BertoC]

TV coverage was really subpar if you wanted to follow the midfield. You could only watch the leaders and well... hope and pray nothing happended to your favourite driver/team in the midfield, because usually when they showed them was because of a retirement.

[P123]

Not missed: 

-Lack of adequate timing info.

-Refuelling, where it was best to wait for stops and try to pass through strategy only. 

-The dodgy dealings of the Ecclestone/ Mosely era. 

[PayasYouRace]

I don’t miss knowing who was going to win the race by lap 1, turn 2. The refuelling era was terrible for that. It wasn’t necessarily who was leading on lap 1, but we always knew who had the ideal fuel load to win easily, and it was usually Michael Schumacher.

I really don’t miss that horrible feeling when a driver crashed and you weren’t sure if he’d be OK. Still a risk of course, but I last felt that with Grosjean’s crashing Bahrain and thankfully those sorts of incidents are few and far between.

I echo those in thread not missing the dreadful coverage of anyone who wasn’t in the top 6.

[jonpollak]

Meh,
Loved all the old stuff.
Yeah, it wasn’t up to today’s standards of technological brilliance but at least it had the most important thing that motor racing is supposed to have… (and doesn’t anymore)

Urgency.

You just HAD to watch.
These days I find that completely lacking.

But I’m old and need to go outside to yell at the clouds.
Jp

[Sterzo]

Being a vintage observer in unrestored condition, I'd be hard pressed to pick a favourite era, but if we trail through time then the things I don't want to see return are:

 

1. Deaths and injuries.

2. Non starters.

3. Warfare for the control of F1 between the clowns and the crooks.

3. Compulsory refuelling.

[Giz]

Jonathan Legard

[JHSingo]

Can't really think of anything beyond adverts on the ITV days. 

The phrase 'while you were away' still haunts me to this day.  I vividly recall one in particular where they'd just cut to an ad break as you saw a puff of smoke from the back of Schumacher's car at Suzuka '06.   

Oh, and Jonathan Legard. Definitely don't miss him. God, he was dreadful. 

[Risil]

TV coverage was really subpar if you wanted to follow the midfield. You could only watch the leaders and well... hope and pray nothing happended to your favourite driver/team in the midfield, because usually when they showed them was because of a retirement.

Yep. Even looking back this is one of the most frustrating things about archive broadcasts.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Can't really think of anything beyond adverts on the ITV days. 

The phrase 'while you were away' still haunts me to this day.  I vividly recall one in particular where they'd just cut to an ad break as you saw a puff of smoke from the back of Schumacher's car at Suzuka '06. 

Or James Allen always saying 'you've missed nothing'...yeah, only a couple of laps of racing, lol.

[SenorSjon]

I'm sad the finest age in F1 was brought to you by really poor camera's. I'd loved the 4k coverage some of us can see today.

 

I don't miss the Friday/Saturday qualy with rain on Saturday making it a non starter. Nor did I like that they only got 12 qualifying laps. That was only 3-4 runs. And then TV complained nobody wanted to run first in the hour... 

[mirrorboy]

The total and absolut lack of overtaking (early 2000's hello).

Edited by mirrorboy, Yesterday, 11:13.

[Ruusperi]

This is interesting topic, because it's very difficult to think aspects you don't miss, compared to things you do miss. I think everything has been said, but I may just repeat it:

 

- Commercials. So many important moments were missed because of unlucky timing of TV ads. Like 1997 Jerez collision, which Finnish MTV3 missed completely.

- Lack of coverage. Only qualifying and race was FTA. Maybe Warm-up. You had to buy satellite dish and F1 Digital+ in order to see free practice sessions (if available in your country).

- Testing was never televised. That resulted so many unseen accidents. Many drivers have had their biggest crashes of their career during testing, and all we got to see was a few aftermath photos. It annoys me. Also people didn't have phone cameras, so the amount amateur footage was scarce.

- Old 12-lap qualifying was not worth watching for the first 30-40 minutes. I'm amazed they even bothered doing 3-4 runs. I think if that system was used today, they would all come out after 55 minutes of waiting.

 

Having said all that, there's much more what I DO miss than what don't. But that's for another thread.

[southernstars]

I mean, I don't miss the old tape-delay coverage in Australia...pretty sure I remember that as late as 2007/2008 we had it on tape delay. It must have gone to live coverage when it went to Sky in the UK, because Mark's maiden win was definitely live.

 

I agree that the graphics and timing information in the earlier races is atrocious. 1996 Spain would have been even more magical if we could actually see the gaps as Michael ate the entire field alive.

 

I don't miss the single-tyre races. HOOO BOY, I do not miss those.

[noikeee]

a) Zero overtaking due to extreme dirty air effect + b) TV direction that only followed the leaders + c) bad on-screen graphics + d) pre-determined strategies due to refuelling + e) tyres that were predictable and lasted forever no matter what you did to them + f) tyre war that tended to put one team miles ahead of anyone else, because the other teams didn't have the right tyre or didn't work as closely with the right tyre manufacturer = insanely ****ing boring races.

 

Like seriously, what we have now, even in cases like Singapore when Lando (or whoever else) shoots off into the distance, is several orders of magnitude more entertaining than the early 2000s. I also think the current social media buzz is a wee bit too much, but better than what we had then when it was off limits to the internet due to Bernie and FOM obssessively taking down anything that could remotely relate to F1. The result is we not only had a really ****ing boring sport but it was also inacessive and limited to a bunch of nerds like us.

[Clatter]

Can't really think of anything beyond adverts on the ITV days.

The phrase 'while you were away' still haunts me to this day. I vividly recall one in particular where they'd just cut to an ad break as you saw a puff of smoke from the back of Schumacher's car at Suzuka '06.

Oh, and Jonathan Legard. Definitely don't miss him. God, he was dreadful.

By far the worst was San Marino in 2005,with a battle at the front itv cut to adverts and missed the finish.

[Grippy]

Most races not being televised, and those that were, were interspersed with horse-racing (BBC Grandstand '60s-70s).

[RacingFan10]

I don't miss the old standard 640x480 TV resolution.

[renzmann]

I don't miss the lack of reliability. Less broken cars and engines made races less of a lottery.

[DW46]

By far the worst was San Marino in 2005,with a battle at the front itv cut to adverts and missed the finish.

The cheek of letting us watch the replay of the final few laps knowing how it ended compounded the error.

[Colbul1]

I'm guessing in Australia you moved to 'as live' coverage when the F1 moved back from ITV to the BBC for 2009 in the UK.  The BBC really upped the quality of coverage (for their 3 years stint before Sky took over).

 

The 1 thing I don't miss, but perhaps others might, is the jeopardy of reliability.  I like the fact the cars are bulletproof now and the winner is the winner (usually).  I never liked sitting there with 1 lap to go wondering if the engine in Mansell's car was about to let go and ruin it all!  His waving on the last lap of course didn't help either...

[renzmann]

ads for cigarettes (even if they looked cool).

[Jellyfishcake]

I don’t miss knowing who was going to win the race by lap 1, turn 2. The refuelling era was terrible for that. It wasn’t necessarily who was leading on lap 1, but we always knew who had the ideal fuel load to win easily, and it was usually Michael Schumacher.

I really don’t miss that horrible feeling when a driver crashed and you weren’t sure if he’d be OK. Still a risk of course, but I last felt that with Grosjean’s crashing Bahrain and thankfully those sorts of incidents are few and far between.

I echo those in thread not missing the dreadful coverage of anyone who wasn’t in the top 6.

 

Thiis season of late is an exception, but i'd counter that by recently in the last few years this issue had been worse.

Back in the 90s/early 00s you had a reasonable chance of the leader having some car problem, whereas now it's micromanaged from mission control.

 

But yeah, the TV coverage was pretty poor, for anyone in the midfield or the back you didn't see much of them unless they had an incident or got lapped.

[1player]

Thiis season of late is an exception, but i'd counter that by recently in the last few years this issue had been worse.
Back in the 90s/early 00s you had a reasonable chance of the leader having some car problem, whereas now it's micromanaged from mission control.

But yeah, the TV coverage was pretty poor, for anyone in the midfield or the back you didn't see much of them unless they had an incident or got lapped.

If you have reliable cars, you need close racing and smaller differences in speed between teams to create excitement and chances to overtake for the lead.

If cars blow up every other race, you don't need any of that to get a surprise winner!

[absinthedude]

I don't miss the significant risk of serious injuries and deaths, which was certainly a thing when I started watching. Even in the late 80s and early 90s it wasn't that uncommon each season for one or two drivers to miss some races due to injury. 

 

The limited camera and recording/replay technology meant that important incidents were missed or that there was no available slow motion replay during the live broadcast. If you got two angles of one incident, you were really lucky. Though it was quite fun to see the different camera tech that different host broadcasters had. The BBC and RAI always seemed to have higher quality stuff than Mexico, Hungary and even France. And the NTSC images beamed from the Americas and Japan were always hilariously poor. 

 

Jean-Marie Balestre. If you think Max and Bernie were bad, look up this guy. 

 

I never had a problem with SD pictures, probably because there was nothing better available at the time unless you invested in film projection equipment (guess which forum member has a film projector with a few F1 highlight reels...). even now I've never bothered watching F1 in higher resolution than  1080p. I'm more interested in 2K and 4K for movies. But some of the satellite transmission of those old analogue SD images was poor. I'm torn between finding it nostalgic because you really knew the race was being beamed from thousands of miles away, and annoying because sometimes the picture was so bad you really couldn't tell which Ferrari it was spinning off. But it was probably a Ferrari. Or a Scuderia Italia Dallarra. maybe.

 

 

 

[Alfisti]

• 12 lap or 1 hr qualy or whatever it was, saw nothing for 54 minutes then a mad dash, it was shite.
• The stupid "qualify with your fuel load" was asinine
• The V10 era cars were incredible to watch alone but jesus H they were just terrible for passing, 2 seconds back they felt the wake and dirty air, a season like 2002 was brutal to watch

[F1Frog]

Definitely TV coverage, today there is always something interesting happening in a race. In the past that was still true but if it wasn’t at the front, you didn’t know about it, so a race would be far more likely to appear boring.

The timing tower at the side makes a huge difference.

Edited by F1Frog, Yesterday, 13:09.

[Sash1]

Grooved tires.

Low head exposing chassis

Tires that flew of the car easily in a crash

Bernie Ecclestone
Max Mosley
Ballestre

[PayasYouRace]

I also do not miss grooved tyres.

[chdphd]

Remember that spell when the timing tower was still set to work on 4:3 TV even though everyone had been using widescreen TVs for years. Well, I had been using one for years at that point.

 

Check oot this old thread: https://forums.autos...-coverage-when/

Edited by chdphd, Yesterday, 14:45.

[Clatter]

Definitely TV coverage, today there is always something interesting happening in a race. In the past that was still true but if it wasn’t at the front, you didn’t know about it, so a race would be far more likely to appear boring.

The timing tower at the side makes a huge difference.

There may well be something interesting happening, but the race director will do all they can to ensure they miss it. It's one aspect of the broadcast that I feel has actually been getting worse.

[LolaB0860]

Remember that spell when the timing tower was still set to work on 4:3 TV even though everyone had been using widescreen TVs for years. Well, I had been using one for year at that point.
Check oot this old thread: https://forums.autos...-coverage-when/

Oh god reading that thread gives me a headache

[pdac]

Grooved tyres.

[1player]

Oh god reading that thread gives me a headache

"What's the deal about widescreen?"

[LolaB0860]

"What's the deal about widescreen?"

 

"In my telly 4:3 view is better. And I want to have my screen full of view. 

 

I don't think widescreen is superior. It may be good for horizontal landscape views but for many things it is not." 

 

Edited by LolaB0860, Yesterday, 15:22.

[Anderis]

I started watching in 2007 and I really struggle to think of one thing I'm not missing at all. Almost everything that was different back then had its' own flavour, even if you can argue it had its' drawbacks, there were also scenarios in which it made things more interesting.

 

I guess one thing that didn't really have many upsides was the rule that allowed you to refuel the car after Q3 by the amount of fuel burnt in Q3. The purposeful fuel burning to have a lighter car towards the end of Q3 was kinda stupid but even that, now that I think of it, at least ensuded the cars were on track all time and not in the garage, which made Q3 a better viewing experience to an extent.

[PayasYouRace]

Remember that spell when the timing tower was still set to work on 4:3 TV even though everyone had been using widescreen TVs for years. Well, I had been using one for years at that point.

Check oot this old thread: https://forums.autos...-coverage-when/

If there was ever a conversation that could only take place in about the year 2006.

Interesting looking back to threads before my time. Some regulars still here, many long gone.

[Ruusperi]

I don't miss the following circuits:

Valencia, Buddh, Yeongam, Sochi, Paul Ricard (yeah, such a long time ago), Indianapolis (2000-07), Fuji (2007-08).

 

Those I have watched live. Also, I think hardly anyone misses Phoenix or Caesars Palace today. Incidentally, I used to regard Aida as a boring track, but after doing some simulated laps recently, I think it would be an excellent addition to the calendar. Same goes to Magny-Cours. Buenos Aires is rather meh, but I would have it any day instead of Abu Dhabi.

[Sterzo]

Interesting that there are more comments about the quality of TV coverage than about F1 racing itself. Now there's a logic to that, in that if you can't see something, you could argue it doesn't much matter what it's like. My view is different. If the core sport is great I'll follow it however I can, whether that's through magazine reports plus the occasional attendance, or through second-rate TV. On the other hand, if the racing's not great then no polishing of the er, show can compensate.

[PlatenGlass]

Strange spelling of that word in your last sentence, Sterzo.

[dweller23]

I do not miss the way they focused mostly on the leaders, even when there was little to no action. And I do not miss the fact that there was no international broadcast available to all people, which for the most part is impartial and still conducted in English.

 

I miss much more though - first of all the limited information, that was great - when I was at Monaco this year, it was an exciting race for me, because the giant screens only had timing tower and tv broadcast, no extra graphics and what not. Very cool, I wish F1TV let you turn off extra information in broadcast. I miss the less number of races and lack of sprints - round 17/18 is usually when F1 fatigue sets in for me and I start to wander off with my mind and I end up not remembering almost any races of any season past Singapore (aside from some bigger ones like outer loop Bahrain 2020 or Saudi Arabia and Abu Dhabi 2021) every single year since 2013 or so. There's too many races, while the racing is good, the amount of them makes them less special.

[absinthedude]

It was noticeable in the past when the race director did concentrate on mid-field battles. The coverage of the 1992 Hungarian GP is a case in point. Mansell making up a handful of places to take 2nd and his WDC was the big story of the day but the TV director also noticed Hakkinen making his way up to 4th from way back and we got to see quite a lot of his race too. But it's worth remembering that in the days before everything could be recorded digitally from every camera (and there were fewer cameras around the track) there was less material for the TV director to work with. 

 

Like several others I do not miss grooved tyres. They were worth a try but it was painfully clear quickly that they weren't the answer to any problems. 

 

I do not miss aluminium honeycomb chassis. I did for a while but carbon fibre is sooo much safer. 

 

I don't miss 4:3, I was an early adopter of widescreen because it was clearly the way forward by 1994 (also the point at which my TV loudspeaker fell silent and I installed my first surround sound system). The problem was that there was a considerable period where, understandably, people were holding onto relatively new 4:3 tellies while most of the material was shot in 16:9 but with 4:3 in mind so it didn't really suit either aspect ratio. Additionally, people with 4:3 televisions seemed to inexplicably think they were missing something when material was letterboxed. 

[Clatter]

It was noticeable in the past when the race director did concentrate on mid-field battles. The coverage of the 1992 Hungarian GP is a case in point. Mansell making up a handful of places to take 2nd and his WDC was the big story of the day but the TV director also noticed Hakkinen making his way up to 4th from way back and we got to see quite a lot of his race too. But it's worth remembering that in the days before everything could be recorded digitally from every camera (and there were fewer cameras around the track) there was less material for the TV director to work with.

Like several others I do not miss grooved tyres. They were worth a try but it was painfully clear quickly that they weren't the answer to any problems.

I do not miss aluminium honeycomb chassis. I did for a while but carbon fibre is sooo much safer.

I don't miss 4:3, I was an early adopter of widescreen because it was clearly the way forward by 1994 (also the point at which my TV loudspeaker fell silent and I installed my first surround sound system). The problem was that there was a considerable period where, understandably, people were holding onto relatively new 4:3 tellies while most of the material was shot in 16:9 but with 4:3 in mind so it didn't really suit either aspect ratio. Additionally, people with 4:3 televisions seemed to inexplicably think they were missing something when material was letterboxed.

One problem is that bernie wasnt an early adopter of anything. Took him a while to update to widescreen, and both HD a UHD were well established before he upgraded.

Edited by Clatter, Yesterday, 17:52.

[Afterburner]

I disagree with the majority of points in the OP. I think the directing was largely better back then, with no wide-angle shots that completely erase any sense of speed or awkwardly focused angles to best show off fake sponsorship boards. The lack of information was also a plus because the real way to keep track of what’s going on in a race is to watch the gaps change since you can’t measure those changes with your eyes, and this is inherently more clinical and less visceral, so detracts from the experience.

And the V10s were great. Loved seeing them for the first time and hearing that sound in my head for days after. Nothing else in the world sounded like that.

[Anderis]

Like several others I do not miss grooved tyres. They were worth a try but it was painfully clear quickly that they weren't the answer to any problems. 

Funny thing because I've been watching some races from 2006-2010 recently and I've noticed one thing. When F1 was changing back to slicks in 2009, I could only think of positives at the time. The explanation was to increase the ratio of mechanical grip to aero grip in order to combat the dirty air problem and I supported that idea fully.

 

But watching races from 2006-2008 recently I noticed how much the cars were sliding all over the place and how it's something I miss in modern F1. It made it clear to see that it was difficult to drive F1 cars flawlessly, unlike today. It created overtaking opportunities as drivers would make small mistakes more frequently. It made failed overtaking attemps more frequent as well which is something you don't see much of nowadays. Also the drivers would spin or visit the grass or gravel much more often than nowadays which made the races more lively.
And then I watched a race from 2010 and noticed the cars didn't slide as much anymore. There were other changes between 2008 and 2010 that took place but it made me think going back to slicks was a part of what made the cars more "planted" to the track.

But the cars of the mid 2000's sliding all over the place was spectacular and I miss that.

[Brawn BGP 001]

One problem is that bernie wasnt an early adopter of anything. Took him a while to update to widescreen, and both HD a UHD were well established before he upgraded.

Think first year of HD was in 2011, they were the last sport to take it up.

[MikeTekRacing]

not having streaming when it was already a thing, not having proper HD or actual F1 programs - it took Liberty to get this back into this century.

The directing was better as it was actually presenting racing and angles to see the action, not the logos. 

Commentary was worse.

[Brawn BGP 001]

The fact that FOM blocked access to the best TV angles, onboards, graphics and team radio to most TV broadcasters to only show it on Bernie Vision in the late-90s-early 2000s.

 

Funniest thing is that Bernie Vision totally missed the Spa 1998 start crash and had to nick it from the local host broadcaster.

Edited by Brawn BGP 001, Yesterday, 18:36.

[Metronazol]

Grooved Tyres
X Wings
Awful Graphics (the 'Formula One' PS1 game has the mid 90s yellow squares burned into my brain)

Lack of timing information
The commentary was of its time - I miss Murray's genuine enthusiasm which is why all of his mistakes were immediately absolved - its clear for Croft this is a paying gig, not the fulcrum of his life's work.
1 lap qualifying (im going to be in a minority here but I kinda miss the old 1 hour 12 lap have at it session, though I am aware it would absolutely not work in this day and age and pretty much didnt work then either - I have fond memories of pissing my old dear off watching an empty race track on a Saturday afternoon when she could be watching whatever 60's reruns were on...

F1 did feel like a smaller world back then, I imagine that feeling is magnified many times over for those who have been watching in the flesh since the 60s.

[H0R]

I definitely do not miss the son of Oswald Mosley.