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Hypothetical endurance capability of current F1 cars


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Poll: Hypothetical endurance capabilities (41 member(s) have cast votes)

If we're talking MAXIMUM capabilities, for how long do you think current F1 cars could last in a single race (NOTE: tire+fuel rules would be relaxed)?

  1. 500 Kilometers (10 votes [24.39%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 24.39%

  2. 1000 Kilometers (3 votes [7.32%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.32%

  3. 6 Hours (10 votes [24.39%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 24.39%

  4. 8 Hours (3 votes [7.32%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.32%

  5. 10 Hours (2 votes [4.88%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.88%

  6. 12 Hours (2 votes [4.88%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.88%

  7. 13-23 Hours (5 votes [12.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.20%

  8. 24 Hours or more (6 votes [14.63%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.63%

If the upcoming United States GP distance was suddenly switched to 1000 KM, how many of the current 20 cars would finish the race in classified position? (NOTE: In this scenario there's no DNFs by accident damage, and tire+fuel rules would be relaxed)

  1. None of them would finish (8 votes [19.51%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 19.51%

  2. 1-5 cars would finish (5 votes [12.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.20%

  3. 6-10 cars would finish (6 votes [14.63%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.63%

  4. 11-15 cars would finish (14 votes [34.15%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 34.15%

  5. 16-20 cars would finish (8 votes [19.51%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 19.51%

Would you be interested in seeing F1 Grand Prix with greater length than 300 KM?

  1. Yes, on regular or semi-regular basis (16 votes [39.02%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 39.02%

  2. Maybe as one-off somewhere (11 votes [26.83%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 26.83%

  3. Not really (14 votes [34.15%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 34.15%

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#1 LolaB0860

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 18:54

If refueling was allowed again in meaningful fashion and Pirelli brought in unlimited set tires, for how long do you think the current F1 cars/teams could last?

 

Of course, many of the modern components and qualities of the cars are already meant to last for a very long time (engines up to several thousand kilometers) in the everlasting search for longevity, however we're talking of continuous race here.

 

majestic-horse-medieval-knight-armor_978


Edited by LolaB0860, 05 October 2024 - 18:56.


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#2 Stephane

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 18:58

Depends a lot on which track

#3 PlatenGlass

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 19:06

Good question. Some people say that the best components fail as soon as they've done the required distance but that's not really true because failures are to a large extent probabilistic and also failure is not always all or nothing so some parts might suffer worse performance before actually failing.

I'm not sure of the answer but I don't see why they wouldn't at least do two or three GPs fairly comfortably and probably more.

#4 highdownforce

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 19:08

More than a Vanwall.

#5 Jerem

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 21:17

I guess the brakes would be the among most critical parts, on some tracks it's just not possible to go much longer than race distance on those brakes.



#6 Grippy

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Posted 05 October 2024 - 21:46

At some circuits they might be limited by brake-disc wear. They could use more durable materials but would have longer braking distances.

and I have no idea what sort of fluids they use in a race. I assume with better tolerances less than earlier years.

400km would be ok but we've got WEC for longer distances.

 

edit slow typing while watching a film, so @Jerem beat me on the brakes issue.


Edited by Grippy, 05 October 2024 - 21:48.


#7 LolaB0860

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Posted 06 October 2024 - 07:35

Yes I imagine Spa and Monaco would treat the durability quite differently. Similarly, 1000kms at Monza could be more doable than 6 Hours due to the speed of that race.

I assume COTA would be alright all-rounder benchmark, being typical Tilkedrome

Edited by LolaB0860, 06 October 2024 - 07:36.


#8 PlatenGlass

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Posted 06 October 2024 - 08:13

Good point on the brakes.

#9 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 06 October 2024 - 08:53

With the current regs I would wager they could turn stuff down and lift-and-coast to 6 hours…



#10 LolaB0860

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Posted 06 October 2024 - 10:34

With the current regs I would wager they could turn stuff down and lift-and-coast to 6 hours…

But if it was still a competitive session, how much lifting and coasting could be done without having to concede too many positions?

Unless everyone attempted just pure survival. I could see a scenario as with LMP675 class few decades ago where literally the last man standing was the winner...

Edited by LolaB0860, 06 October 2024 - 10:35.


#11 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 06 October 2024 - 11:06

But if it was still a competitive session, how much lifting and coasting could be done without having to concede too many positions?

Unless everyone attempted just pure survival. I could see a scenario as with LMP675 class few decades ago where literally the last man standing was the winner...

Knowing modern F1, the teams would agree to crawl around at 20mph for 5 hours and then race normally for the final hour.



#12 RedRabbit

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Posted 06 October 2024 - 11:11

Brakes would be the ultimate decider. How different are the brakes in WEC Hypercar or LMP1?

#13 juicy sushi

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Posted 06 October 2024 - 17:51

Not too much. Pads and rotors are a bit more substantial. Thermal management is probably a big issue. 300km is fine, but doubling that or more, with no cooldown period, likely cooks some of the sensitive stuff.

#14 pdac

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Posted 06 October 2024 - 17:52

Knowing modern F1, the teams would agree to crawl around at 20mph for 5 hours and then race normally for the final hour.

 

They wouldn't need to agree this. The strategists would all come up with the same idea - crawl around and preserve resources until the finish is in sight. All teams already race to deltas.


Edited by pdac, 06 October 2024 - 17:52.


#15 GreenMachine

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Posted 06 October 2024 - 21:12

Interesting question.  I voted 1000km, I think that is doable at competitive speeds, and agree brakes might be the limiting factor.  It is a given that ICE would be turned down, but I doubt dramatically.

 

Suggest COTA and Spa, maybe Silverstone? :up:  :clap:



#16 Wuzak

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Posted 07 October 2024 - 02:05

If there were to be one or more races where brake wear would be an issue, the F1 teams would introduce quick change brake systems, as I am sure they have in LMP1 and they certainly do for Bathurst.

 

They may have to top up oils at pit stops, as well as fuel.



#17 kumo7

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Posted 07 October 2024 - 04:14

Singapore 6 hours in a current F1 car will kill the driver, perhaps. Zandvoort naturally be yet another driver killer.

#18 SB

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Posted 07 October 2024 - 04:15

From entertainment point of view, I think the current F1 cars are so fast and therefore the race is a little bit too short in terms of race time. (ie the time I would stay in front of TV)

 

I hope the races would be extended such that it will be finished in around 2 - 2.5 hours , no need to too long as I dont want F1 becomes a real endurance series.



#19 JL14

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Posted 07 October 2024 - 04:33

I think the driver will be the limiting factor.



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#20 PayasYouRace

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Posted 07 October 2024 - 06:11

The technical question is really hard to answer, so my votes are gut feeling only.

 

I’d quite like to see a handful of 500 km races throughout the season though.



#21 Wuzak

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Posted 07 October 2024 - 08:06

From entertainment point of view, I think the current F1 cars are so fast and therefore the race is a little bit too short in terms of race time. (ie the time I would stay in front of TV)

 

I hope the races would be extended such that it will be finished in around 2 - 2.5 hours , no need to too long as I dont want F1 becomes a real endurance series.

 

Currently the race time limit is 2 hours.

 

F1 is supposed to be a sprint, not an endurance event.



#22 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 07 October 2024 - 08:12

Good question. Some people say that the best components fail as soon as they've done the required distance but that's not really true because failures are to a large extent probabilistic and also failure is not always all or nothing so some parts might suffer worse performance before actually failing.

I'm not sure of the answer but I don't see why they wouldn't at least do two or three GPs fairly comfortably and probably more.

Critical components are designed with a tradeoff of safety buffer. Make them too strong and you lose too much performance. Too light and they don’t last

Controlling quality and the wear during the component’s life is super important. They could run them 500km by tunning them down quite a bit. Even brakes can last longer if you lift earlier on the straights to manage them.

#23 PayasYouRace

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Posted 07 October 2024 - 08:13

Currently the race time limit is 2 hours.

F1 is supposed to be a sprint, not an endurance event.


A Grand Prix isn’t supposed to be a sprint. It’s supposed to be something significant. Maybe not endurance, but is anything over 2 hours “endurance”? Is the Indy 500 an endurance event? No. Why not have a 500 km Grand Prix? That’s not an endurance race.

#24 Grippy

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Posted 07 October 2024 - 10:30

It would be interesting to know if the drivers could handle the G-forces generated by an F1 car over longer distances regardless of HANS.



#25 PayasYouRace

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Posted 07 October 2024 - 10:34

It would be interesting to know if the drivers could handle the G-forces generated by an F1 car over longer distances regardless of HANS.


There are plenty of comparable cars in long races.

#26 Sterzo

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Posted 07 October 2024 - 12:21

Currently the race time limit is 2 hours.

 

F1 is supposed to be a sprint, not an endurance event.

Senor Fangio would like a word, having spent 3 hours 30 minutes winning the 1957 German Grand Prix.



#27 Collombin

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Posted 07 October 2024 - 12:42

Senor Fangio would like a word, having spent 3 hours 30 minutes winning the 1957 German Grand Prix.


3 hours (or 500km) was the minimum in those days iirc. Not a patch on the 10 hour races of the 1931 season!

#28 LolaB0860

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Posted 07 October 2024 - 13:59

Singapore 6 hours in a current F1 car will kill the driver, perhaps. Zandvoort naturally be yet another driver killer.

 

Obviously in this scenario, single driver would not be doing 1000KM, 6 hours, 8 hours or whatever but it'd be shared entry with maximum/minimum stint lengths


Edited by LolaB0860, 07 October 2024 - 14:01.


#29 7MGTEsup

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Posted 07 October 2024 - 15:50

If you fit fresh components at the start of each race I don't see why 1000km isn't out of the question. If brakes become an issue just design them to be able to be swapped out in under 1 minute. 



#30 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 07 October 2024 - 16:08

A Grand Prix isn’t supposed to be a sprint. It’s supposed to be something significant. Maybe not endurance, but is anything over 2 hours “endurance”? Is the Indy 500 an endurance event? No. Why not have a 500 km Grand Prix? That’s not an endurance race.

it's hard to follow, hard to put in the TV schedule. Plenty of reasons why not.

(there are TV events longer - but all have advertising breaks)



#31 PayasYouRace

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Posted 07 October 2024 - 18:32

it's hard to follow, hard to put in the TV schedule. Plenty of reasons why not.

(there are TV events longer - but all have advertising breaks)

Any TV channel that can show a Lord of the Rings film can show a 500 km Grand Prix without a break.



#32 LolaB0860

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Posted 07 October 2024 - 18:39

If you fit fresh components at the start of each race I don't see why 1000km isn't out of the question. If brakes become an issue just design them to be able to be swapped out in under 1 minute. 

 

GT2 teams used to do routine in-race brake changes at Le Mans, and it didn't take much time at all from them, so I'm sure in F1 they'd manage change quickly enough too



#33 Beri

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Posted 08 October 2024 - 09:33

I always thought that a 500 kilometer race would be a good addition to F1. And I still think it would.



#34 Ruusperi

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Posted 08 October 2024 - 10:55

it's hard to follow, hard to put in the TV schedule. Plenty of reasons why not.

(there are TV events longer - but all have advertising breaks)

TV schedules don't matter in 2020s. There haven't really been FTA or regular channels showing F1 for more than a decade. It's either dedicated F1 channels or streaming, which both can show F1 endlessly.

 

I wouldn't mind a 3h endurance race. Some races feel like "sprints"  already. If Monza race distance was doubled, it would still be over in 150 minutes (without SCs).



#35 Sash1

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Posted 08 October 2024 - 11:00

Brembo says (EN Brembo_F1 2017_Special_0210-02.png) that the discs can last 1200km and the brake pad 800km (Brembo_F1 2014_Special_1202-07.jpg).
The pictures might be old, but it is still what Brembo has up on its infographic page.

 

So a 1000km race would be tight on the disc, but possible with good balanced cooling. The pads have to be replaced one time minimum.
The boxed in principle of the brakedisc and calliper on F1 cars might make that time consuming, so it could be more interesting to replace the whole unit.

 

I think that the PU and gearbox can manage 1000km. At Circuit of the Americas this race would take about 5,5 / 5.75 hours with pitstops and driver swaps.

 

Use 3 drivers for 333 km's on average each. 

 

But is it fun to watch? Better let F1 drivers use hypercars for such a race.


Edited by Sash1, 08 October 2024 - 11:50.


#36 absinthedude

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Posted 08 October 2024 - 11:28

From entertainment point of view, I think the current F1 cars are so fast and therefore the race is a little bit too short in terms of race time. (ie the time I would stay in front of TV)

 

I hope the races would be extended such that it will be finished in around 2 - 2.5 hours , no need to too long as I dont want F1 becomes a real endurance series.

 

There was a proposal a few years ago which started with the supposition that grands prix are too long, to divide it into two shorter races. Personally I think some of the races are currently too short, those on the faster tracks. I'd be all in favour of increasing Monza by 10-15 laps..and honestly I don't like the assumption that my fellow humans have the attention span of a gnat. 

 

Yes, brakes are probably the first limiting factor. PU's could be put in a mode that would surely last 500-800km. The cars aren't going to fall apart. Tyres can be changed. Fuel could theoretically be added. The brakes would be the first to fail. 



#37 Collombin

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Posted 08 October 2024 - 11:37

Personally I think some of the races are currently too short, those on the faster tracks


This is why I would prefer races to be scheduled to last a certain amount of time rather than a distance. That and the occasional chaos it could bring when a struggling race leader misjudges things and accidentally crosses the finish line too early, or backs off too much and ends up losing.

#38 LolaB0860

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Posted 08 October 2024 - 15:06

At Circuit of the Americas this race would take about 5,5 / 5.75 hours with pitstops and driver swaps.


Really, that long? Back when LMS still did 1000km races 15 years ago, the LMP1s were able to cover 1000km with little over 5 hours on Euro circuits. Sometimes it was bit more depending on circuit and safety cars

Edited by LolaB0860, 08 October 2024 - 15:10.


#39 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 08 October 2024 - 21:05

Any TV channel that can show a Lord of the Rings film can show a 500 km Grand Prix without a break.

Is Lord of the Rings shown without a break? On any channel? 

 

Endurance racing is cool. People that want that can watch that. F1 is not endurance.



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#40 SB

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Posted 09 October 2024 - 03:04

it's hard to follow, hard to put in the TV schedule. Plenty of reasons why not.

(there are TV events longer - but all have advertising breaks)

 

There are currently (over) an hour of pre-race show and post-race analysis , therefore I don't think it is dfificult to put the extra distance of race into TV schedules.



#41 LolaB0860

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Posted 09 October 2024 - 05:12

Endurance racing is cool. People that want that can watch that. F1 is not endurance.


Yeah, but the ACO ruined it for me.

#42 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 09 October 2024 - 05:41

There are currently (over) an hour of pre-race show and post-race analysis , therefore I don't think it is dfificult to put the extra distance of race into TV schedules.

tv schedules can show or not show those. You can’t do that with a race.
Spectators also watching something for 5 hrs is hard. You need to move, use the restroom, stretch etc.
you guys can watch lemans all you want and on repeat. Why mess with f1 when there is endurance racing?

#43 Victor_RO

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Posted 09 October 2024 - 05:53

Why mess with f1 when there is endurance racing?

 

Because people complain about BoP while ignoring that some (often half-hearted) form of BoP has been part of endurance racing for decades, and the current form of it is one of the main reasons why Hypercar is so over-subscribed and packed with entries and competition.

 

(preparing for people to say "it's fake competition")



#44 PayasYouRace

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Posted 09 October 2024 - 07:37

Is Lord of the Rings shown without a break? On any channel?

Endurance racing is cool. People that want that can watch that. F1 is not endurance.


Well on movie channels, which are equivalent to sports channel in that they can show long events without a break.

500km isn’t an endurance race though. The Indy 500 (800 km) isn’t an endurance race, and they’re shown ad free (in civilised countries).

#45 Sash1

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Posted 09 October 2024 - 07:51

Really, that long? Back when LMS still did 1000km races 15 years ago, the LMP1s were able to cover 1000km with little over 5 hours on Euro circuits. Sometimes it was bit more depending on circuit and safety cars

 

On average in one go with some pitstop for tires it would take 1000/f1 distance x 2023 GP time = 1000/308 * 95.333 min = 309,5 min = 5h 15 min

Add some time for a driver change and a brake pad change, refueling and it will take about 5,5 hrs. Half an hour faster than a Hypercar.

Or when you take the fastest lap 1.36 min or 96 sec in 2019 for a 5.513km track length 1000/5.513 x 96 sec = 17413s = 290 min = 4.8 hrs at continous lap record speed (which is impossible) so caclulate with a 100s lap = just over 5 hrs.

 

If you would compare Imola.
WEC Imola 6hrs 205 laps times 4909m track length (1006,34km) in just over 6hrs

vs

F1 Imola 309,049km in 1:25,25 hrs

 

F1 at race speed no extra fuel pitstops would do 1006,34 km in 4 hours and 38 minutes.



#46 absinthedude

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Posted 09 October 2024 - 08:22

Is Lord of the Rings shown without a break? On any channel? 

 

Endurance racing is cool. People that want that can watch that. F1 is not endurance.

 

There are no ads on BBC TV in the UK and never have been. Many a long film has been shown on the BBC without a break. Fiddler On The Roof is on every few years, unedited in all it's 3 hour glory. 



#47 LolaB0860

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Posted 09 October 2024 - 09:36

On average in one go with some pitstop for tires it would take 1000/f1 distance x 2023 GP time = 1000/308 * 95.333 min = 309,5 min = 5h 15 min

Add some time for a driver change and a brake pad change, refueling and it will take about 5,5 hrs. Half an hour faster than a Hypercar.

Or when you take the fastest lap 1.36 min or 96 sec in 2019 for a 5.513km track length 1000/5.513 x 96 sec = 17413s = 290 min = 4.8 hrs at continous lap record speed (which is impossible) so caclulate with a 100s lap = just over 5 hrs.

 

If you would compare Imola.
WEC Imola 6hrs 205 laps times 4909m track length (1006,34km) in just over 6hrs

vs

F1 Imola 309,049km in 1:25,25 hrs

 

F1 at race speed no extra fuel pitstops would do 1006,34 km in 4 hours and 38 minutes.

I do appreciate some maths!



#48 1player

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Posted 09 October 2024 - 14:26

To the 39% that said they would want to see F1 endurance races, don't give Domenicali any ideas!

 

Or we'll soon have 24 races + sprints + multiple endurance races lasting 6 hours. You can have too much of a good thing



#49 LolaB0860

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Posted 09 October 2024 - 14:33

To the 39% that said they would want to see F1 endurance races, don't give Domenicali any ideas!

Or we'll soon have 24 races + sprints + multiple endurance races lasting 6 hours. You can have too much of a good thing


But 6 Hour Abu Dhabi Grand Prix would give great excuse for triple points finale, Bernie would be proud

#50 pdac

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Posted 09 October 2024 - 15:09

There are no ads on BBC TV in the UK and never have been. Many a long film has been shown on the BBC without a break. Fiddler On The Roof is on every few years, unedited in all it's 3 hour glory. 

 

Yes, but the BBC are not going to get more than a slew of complaints if they were to broadcast a 3-hour sporting event that wasn't a football match (or Wimbledon or the Olympics, of course - which are only possible because they are well established and steeped in history).


Edited by pdac, 09 October 2024 - 15:10.