49 replies to this topic

[LolaB0860]

If refueling was allowed again in meaningful fashion and Pirelli brought in unlimited set tires, for how long do you think the current F1 cars/teams could last?

 

Of course, many of the modern components and qualities of the cars are already meant to last for a very long time (engines up to several thousand kilometers) in the everlasting search for longevity, however we're talking of continuous race here.

 

Edited by LolaB0860, 05 October 2024 - 18:56.

[Stephane]

Depends a lot on which track

[PlatenGlass]

Good question. Some people say that the best components fail as soon as they've done the required distance but that's not really true because failures are to a large extent probabilistic and also failure is not always all or nothing so some parts might suffer worse performance before actually failing.

I'm not sure of the answer but I don't see why they wouldn't at least do two or three GPs fairly comfortably and probably more.

[highdownforce]

More than a Vanwall.

[Jerem]

I guess the brakes would be the among most critical parts, on some tracks it's just not possible to go much longer than race distance on those brakes.

[Grippy]

At some circuits they might be limited by brake-disc wear. They could use more durable materials but would have longer braking distances.

and I have no idea what sort of fluids they use in a race. I assume with better tolerances less than earlier years.

400km would be ok but we've got WEC for longer distances.

 

edit slow typing while watching a film, so @Jerem beat me on the brakes issue.

Edited by Grippy, 05 October 2024 - 21:48.

[LolaB0860]

Yes I imagine Spa and Monaco would treat the durability quite differently. Similarly, 1000kms at Monza could be more doable than 6 Hours due to the speed of that race.

I assume COTA would be alright all-rounder benchmark, being typical Tilkedrome

Edited by LolaB0860, 06 October 2024 - 07:36.

[PlatenGlass]

Good point on the brakes.

[IrvTheSwerve]

With the current regs I would wager they could turn stuff down and lift-and-coast to 6 hours…

[LolaB0860]

With the current regs I would wager they could turn stuff down and lift-and-coast to 6 hours…

But if it was still a competitive session, how much lifting and coasting could be done without having to concede too many positions?

Unless everyone attempted just pure survival. I could see a scenario as with LMP675 class few decades ago where literally the last man standing was the winner...

Edited by LolaB0860, 06 October 2024 - 10:35.

[IrvTheSwerve]

But if it was still a competitive session, how much lifting and coasting could be done without having to concede too many positions?

Unless everyone attempted just pure survival. I could see a scenario as with LMP675 class few decades ago where literally the last man standing was the winner...

Knowing modern F1, the teams would agree to crawl around at 20mph for 5 hours and then race normally for the final hour.

[RedRabbit]

Brakes would be the ultimate decider. How different are the brakes in WEC Hypercar or LMP1?

[juicy sushi]

Not too much. Pads and rotors are a bit more substantial. Thermal management is probably a big issue. 300km is fine, but doubling that or more, with no cooldown period, likely cooks some of the sensitive stuff.

[pdac]

Knowing modern F1, the teams would agree to crawl around at 20mph for 5 hours and then race normally for the final hour.

 

They wouldn't need to agree this. The strategists would all come up with the same idea - crawl around and preserve resources until the finish is in sight. All teams already race to deltas.

Edited by pdac, 06 October 2024 - 17:52.

[GreenMachine]

Interesting question.  I voted 1000km, I think that is doable at competitive speeds, and agree brakes might be the limiting factor.  It is a given that ICE would be turned down, but I doubt dramatically.

 

Suggest COTA and Spa, maybe Silverstone?  

[Wuzak]

If there were to be one or more races where brake wear would be an issue, the F1 teams would introduce quick change brake systems, as I am sure they have in LMP1 and they certainly do for Bathurst.

 

They may have to top up oils at pit stops, as well as fuel.

[kumo7]

Singapore 6 hours in a current F1 car will kill the driver, perhaps. Zandvoort naturally be yet another driver killer.

[SB]

From entertainment point of view, I think the current F1 cars are so fast and therefore the race is a little bit too short in terms of race time. (ie the time I would stay in front of TV)

 

I hope the races would be extended such that it will be finished in around 2 - 2.5 hours , no need to too long as I dont want F1 becomes a real endurance series.

[JL14]

I think the driver will be the limiting factor.

[PayasYouRace]

The technical question is really hard to answer, so my votes are gut feeling only.

 

I’d quite like to see a handful of 500 km races throughout the season though.

[Wuzak]

From entertainment point of view, I think the current F1 cars are so fast and therefore the race is a little bit too short in terms of race time. (ie the time I would stay in front of TV)

 

I hope the races would be extended such that it will be finished in around 2 - 2.5 hours , no need to too long as I dont want F1 becomes a real endurance series.

 

Currently the race time limit is 2 hours.

 

F1 is supposed to be a sprint, not an endurance event.

[MikeTekRacing]

Good question. Some people say that the best components fail as soon as they've done the required distance but that's not really true because failures are to a large extent probabilistic and also failure is not always all or nothing so some parts might suffer worse performance before actually failing.

I'm not sure of the answer but I don't see why they wouldn't at least do two or three GPs fairly comfortably and probably more.

Critical components are designed with a tradeoff of safety buffer. Make them too strong and you lose too much performance. Too light and they don’t last

Controlling quality and the wear during the component’s life is super important. They could run them 500km by tunning them down quite a bit. Even brakes can last longer if you lift earlier on the straights to manage them.

[PayasYouRace]

Currently the race time limit is 2 hours.

F1 is supposed to be a sprint, not an endurance event.

A Grand Prix isn’t supposed to be a sprint. It’s supposed to be something significant. Maybe not endurance, but is anything over 2 hours “endurance”? Is the Indy 500 an endurance event? No. Why not have a 500 km Grand Prix? That’s not an endurance race.

[Grippy]

It would be interesting to know if the drivers could handle the G-forces generated by an F1 car over longer distances regardless of HANS.

[PayasYouRace]

It would be interesting to know if the drivers could handle the G-forces generated by an F1 car over longer distances regardless of HANS.

There are plenty of comparable cars in long races.

[Sterzo]

Currently the race time limit is 2 hours.

 

F1 is supposed to be a sprint, not an endurance event.

Senor Fangio would like a word, having spent 3 hours 30 minutes winning the 1957 German Grand Prix.

[Collombin]

Senor Fangio would like a word, having spent 3 hours 30 minutes winning the 1957 German Grand Prix.

3 hours (or 500km) was the minimum in those days iirc. Not a patch on the 10 hour races of the 1931 season!

[LolaB0860]

Singapore 6 hours in a current F1 car will kill the driver, perhaps. Zandvoort naturally be yet another driver killer.

 

Obviously in this scenario, single driver would not be doing 1000KM, 6 hours, 8 hours or whatever but it'd be shared entry with maximum/minimum stint lengths

Edited by LolaB0860, 07 October 2024 - 14:01.

[7MGTEsup]

If you fit fresh components at the start of each race I don't see why 1000km isn't out of the question. If brakes become an issue just design them to be able to be swapped out in under 1 minute. 

[MikeTekRacing]

A Grand Prix isn’t supposed to be a sprint. It’s supposed to be something significant. Maybe not endurance, but is anything over 2 hours “endurance”? Is the Indy 500 an endurance event? No. Why not have a 500 km Grand Prix? That’s not an endurance race.

it's hard to follow, hard to put in the TV schedule. Plenty of reasons why not.

(there are TV events longer - but all have advertising breaks)

[PayasYouRace]

it's hard to follow, hard to put in the TV schedule. Plenty of reasons why not.

(there are TV events longer - but all have advertising breaks)

Any TV channel that can show a Lord of the Rings film can show a 500 km Grand Prix without a break.

[LolaB0860]

If you fit fresh components at the start of each race I don't see why 1000km isn't out of the question. If brakes become an issue just design them to be able to be swapped out in under 1 minute. 

 

GT2 teams used to do routine in-race brake changes at Le Mans, and it didn't take much time at all from them, so I'm sure in F1 they'd manage change quickly enough too

[Beri]

I always thought that a 500 kilometer race would be a good addition to F1. And I still think it would.

[Ruusperi]

it's hard to follow, hard to put in the TV schedule. Plenty of reasons why not.

(there are TV events longer - but all have advertising breaks)

TV schedules don't matter in 2020s. There haven't really been FTA or regular channels showing F1 for more than a decade. It's either dedicated F1 channels or streaming, which both can show F1 endlessly.

 

I wouldn't mind a 3h endurance race. Some races feel like "sprints"  already. If Monza race distance was doubled, it would still be over in 150 minutes (without SCs).

[Sash1]

Brembo says (EN Brembo_F1 2017_Special_0210-02.png) that the discs can last 1200km and the brake pad 800km (Brembo_F1 2014_Special_1202-07.jpg).
The pictures might be old, but it is still what Brembo has up on its infographic page.

 

So a 1000km race would be tight on the disc, but possible with good balanced cooling. The pads have to be replaced one time minimum.
The boxed in principle of the brakedisc and calliper on F1 cars might make that time consuming, so it could be more interesting to replace the whole unit.

 

I think that the PU and gearbox can manage 1000km. At Circuit of the Americas this race would take about 5,5 / 5.75 hours with pitstops and driver swaps.

 

Use 3 drivers for 333 km's on average each. 

 

But is it fun to watch? Better let F1 drivers use hypercars for such a race.

Edited by Sash1, 08 October 2024 - 11:50.

[absinthedude]

From entertainment point of view, I think the current F1 cars are so fast and therefore the race is a little bit too short in terms of race time. (ie the time I would stay in front of TV)

 

I hope the races would be extended such that it will be finished in around 2 - 2.5 hours , no need to too long as I dont want F1 becomes a real endurance series.

 

There was a proposal a few years ago which started with the supposition that grands prix are too long, to divide it into two shorter races. Personally I think some of the races are currently too short, those on the faster tracks. I'd be all in favour of increasing Monza by 10-15 laps..and honestly I don't like the assumption that my fellow humans have the attention span of a gnat. 

 

Yes, brakes are probably the first limiting factor. PU's could be put in a mode that would surely last 500-800km. The cars aren't going to fall apart. Tyres can be changed. Fuel could theoretically be added. The brakes would be the first to fail. 

[Collombin]

Personally I think some of the races are currently too short, those on the faster tracks

This is why I would prefer races to be scheduled to last a certain amount of time rather than a distance. That and the occasional chaos it could bring when a struggling race leader misjudges things and accidentally crosses the finish line too early, or backs off too much and ends up losing.

[LolaB0860]

At Circuit of the Americas this race would take about 5,5 / 5.75 hours with pitstops and driver swaps.

Really, that long? Back when LMS still did 1000km races 15 years ago, the LMP1s were able to cover 1000km with little over 5 hours on Euro circuits. Sometimes it was bit more depending on circuit and safety cars

Edited by LolaB0860, 08 October 2024 - 15:10.

[MikeTekRacing]

Any TV channel that can show a Lord of the Rings film can show a 500 km Grand Prix without a break.

Is Lord of the Rings shown without a break? On any channel? 

 

Endurance racing is cool. People that want that can watch that. F1 is not endurance.

[SB]

it's hard to follow, hard to put in the TV schedule. Plenty of reasons why not.

(there are TV events longer - but all have advertising breaks)

 

There are currently (over) an hour of pre-race show and post-race analysis , therefore I don't think it is dfificult to put the extra distance of race into TV schedules.

[LolaB0860]

Endurance racing is cool. People that want that can watch that. F1 is not endurance.

Yeah, but the ACO ruined it for me.

[MikeTekRacing]

There are currently (over) an hour of pre-race show and post-race analysis , therefore I don't think it is dfificult to put the extra distance of race into TV schedules.

tv schedules can show or not show those. You can’t do that with a race.
Spectators also watching something for 5 hrs is hard. You need to move, use the restroom, stretch etc.
you guys can watch lemans all you want and on repeat. Why mess with f1 when there is endurance racing?

[Victor_RO]

Why mess with f1 when there is endurance racing?

 

Because people complain about BoP while ignoring that some (often half-hearted) form of BoP has been part of endurance racing for decades, and the current form of it is one of the main reasons why Hypercar is so over-subscribed and packed with entries and competition.

 

(preparing for people to say "it's fake competition")

[PayasYouRace]

Is Lord of the Rings shown without a break? On any channel?

Endurance racing is cool. People that want that can watch that. F1 is not endurance.

Well on movie channels, which are equivalent to sports channel in that they can show long events without a break.

500km isn’t an endurance race though. The Indy 500 (800 km) isn’t an endurance race, and they’re shown ad free (in civilised countries).

[Sash1]

Really, that long? Back when LMS still did 1000km races 15 years ago, the LMP1s were able to cover 1000km with little over 5 hours on Euro circuits. Sometimes it was bit more depending on circuit and safety cars

 

On average in one go with some pitstop for tires it would take 1000/f1 distance x 2023 GP time = 1000/308 * 95.333 min = 309,5 min = 5h 15 min

Add some time for a driver change and a brake pad change, refueling and it will take about 5,5 hrs. Half an hour faster than a Hypercar.

Or when you take the fastest lap 1.36 min or 96 sec in 2019 for a 5.513km track length 1000/5.513 x 96 sec = 17413s = 290 min = 4.8 hrs at continous lap record speed (which is impossible) so caclulate with a 100s lap = just over 5 hrs.

 

If you would compare Imola.
WEC Imola 6hrs 205 laps times 4909m track length (1006,34km) in just over 6hrs

vs

F1 Imola 309,049km in 1:25,25 hrs

 

F1 at race speed no extra fuel pitstops would do 1006,34 km in 4 hours and 38 minutes.

[absinthedude]

Is Lord of the Rings shown without a break? On any channel? 

 

Endurance racing is cool. People that want that can watch that. F1 is not endurance.

 

There are no ads on BBC TV in the UK and never have been. Many a long film has been shown on the BBC without a break. Fiddler On The Roof is on every few years, unedited in all it's 3 hour glory. 

[LolaB0860]

On average in one go with some pitstop for tires it would take 1000/f1 distance x 2023 GP time = 1000/308 * 95.333 min = 309,5 min = 5h 15 min

Add some time for a driver change and a brake pad change, refueling and it will take about 5,5 hrs. Half an hour faster than a Hypercar.

Or when you take the fastest lap 1.36 min or 96 sec in 2019 for a 5.513km track length 1000/5.513 x 96 sec = 17413s = 290 min = 4.8 hrs at continous lap record speed (which is impossible) so caclulate with a 100s lap = just over 5 hrs.

 

If you would compare Imola.
WEC Imola 6hrs 205 laps times 4909m track length (1006,34km) in just over 6hrs

vs

F1 Imola 309,049km in 1:25,25 hrs

 

F1 at race speed no extra fuel pitstops would do 1006,34 km in 4 hours and 38 minutes.

I do appreciate some maths!

[1player]

To the 39% that said they would want to see F1 endurance races, don't give Domenicali any ideas!

 

Or we'll soon have 24 races + sprints + multiple endurance races lasting 6 hours. You can have too much of a good thing

[LolaB0860]

To the 39% that said they would want to see F1 endurance races, don't give Domenicali any ideas!

Or we'll soon have 24 races + sprints + multiple endurance races lasting 6 hours. You can have too much of a good thing

But 6 Hour Abu Dhabi Grand Prix would give great excuse for triple points finale, Bernie would be proud

[pdac]

There are no ads on BBC TV in the UK and never have been. Many a long film has been shown on the BBC without a break. Fiddler On The Roof is on every few years, unedited in all it's 3 hour glory. 

 

Yes, but the BBC are not going to get more than a slew of complaints if they were to broadcast a 3-hour sporting event that wasn't a football match (or Wimbledon or the Olympics, of course - which are only possible because they are well established and steeped in history).

Edited by pdac, 09 October 2024 - 15:10.