82 replies to this topic

[FirstnameLastname]

Amid the backdrop of reluctance to admit any new teams to the series, should F1 perhaps revisit the idea of each existing team fielding 3 cars?

30 car grid

Possibility that you could have stipulations surrounding the 3rd driver and their experience (could be a way of getting fresh blood into the sport) - not sure if I’d like that or just let the teams crack on with whichever 3 drivers they preferred

Could allow the 3rd car to run an alternative livery too if that helped on the commercial side?

I know there was reluctance previously on the idea as it stepped away from tradition, but that ship has sailed really these days…

Edited by FirstnameLastname, 06 October 2024 - 11:24.

[PayasYouRace]

I’d rather we revisit open competition with anyone capable of building a Formula 1 car being allowed to attempt to qualify for races. Solve the problem at its source.

[OvDrone]

*insert classic comment about the Summer Autumn break being too long*

[danmills]

Catch 22 problem.

 

They use paddock, track, safety and facility size as an excuse not to have more teams and cars.

 

Any talk of 3 car teams should get shot down immediately as it basically admits the unspoken corruption that it's all about prize money.

 

I'd love to see three car teams, but the biggest fear is a Red Bull style season where the podium features all the same trio.

 

Would ruin the sport.

 

You could run a separate Q4 qualifying session for the third teams and they start in qual order of their own from P21 onwards. That might be interesting.

 

The track would be absolutely rammed though? Unless you then add a quirky feature whereby the third cars of teams get knocked out in the race? After 5 laps the last placed third cars pits and is out. Lap 10 the next last placed third cars is out. It's effectively a mini sprint within the main race. Track would clean up as the race progressed with say the fastest 5 guys staying on.

 

Imagine Mclaren 3rd guys racing Albon and Sainz with Red Bull 3rd team trying to battle Tsunoda and Lawson just to stay in the race.

 

It would surely spice up the back of the grid immensely.

 

Would there be rules on third drivers? They can only have a max of 2 full seasons F1 experience with the same team to keep it fresh? Points could be like sports cars, you could give third cars a different class system of 5-4-3-2-1?

 

Or have teams score the highest pair of their three entries in an O/A finish?

 

So if Williams finished Sainz P9, Albon P10, Colapinto 21st (P1 of the third cars) they only score Sainz and Albons.

 

That could get tactical, you'd retire Albon to bag Colapintos points. So if points were awarded all the way down the grid it would work.

Edited by danmills, 06 October 2024 - 11:53.

[Anja]

It's really a double-edged sword. It could work. Or it could make things even worse if one or two teams have a big advantage over the others. And I'm really not a fan of artificial complicated solutions like additional cars for drivers with less than x amount of experience or something like that. But this is F1 we're talking about so introducing more gimmicks instead of solving the issues at a more fundamental level would be very much on brand. 

[sterlingfan2000]

There's the Danger of Redbull putting 2 Perez alongside Verstappen so he doesn't get challenged or 2 Bottas alongside Hamilton.

Also Podium could be 1 Team only.

[Nathan]

Can you imagine how confusing it would be watching 10 sets of triplets. I think it will just lead to wanting 4 car teams.

[cjm321190]

I always thought 3 car teams could be a great addition.

1: they bring a third car anyways to the track so the parts are there just un built.

2: 3rd cars wont be eligible for WCC.

3: drivers of 3rd car must be rookies or less than 20 full time starts.

4: they could nominate 8-10 races suitable, based on pit capacity and space.

5: would need an extra budget per 3rd car race.


In reality that would be 30 cars which is to much. So they would have to say 3rd cars can do 12 races and rotate. So max is only 26 at a GP.

Draw the circuits, Ferrari would want 3 at monza, imola, mclaren would want Britain.

Basically you would create a junior academy championship to give rookies a chance. But might undermine F2.


Or just have 12 teams job done. Manor, caterham and Hrt did very well on their budgets sub 80m vs 400-500 mil of the top teams. It can be done.

Edited by cjm321190, 06 October 2024 - 13:14.

[Rob G]

The mid-pack teams would be lucky to scrape into the top ten once or twice during the entire season, and the tail enders would have no hope. No thanks.

[cjm321190]

The mid-pack teams would be lucky to scrape into the top ten once or twice during the entire season, and the tail enders would have no hope. No thanks.

Points system would need changing to a top 15 points a la Champcar days.

But again are we protecting teams in a more socialist way or are we wanting the best teams to come up with things to be competitive.

I personally do not like closed shop franchised sports. As it degrades the quality over time.

We probably need less races max 18-20 but more cars.

As a long time F1 fan i do find myself spending more time watching Indycar than F1.

As a Williams fan being last is annoying but does not mean F1 is less enjoyable.

Edited by cjm321190, 06 October 2024 - 13:17.

[Sterzo]

Once upon a time there was no restriction on how many teams could enter, how many cars they could run, or what liveries they used. The problems which arose then were: none. Zero. I'm all for doing away with pointless rules.

[Nathan]

I personally do not like closed shop franchised sports. As it degrades the quality over time.

Do you have an example? And if you do have one, how do you know its from being closed franchise and not say, a salary cap?

Edited by Nathan, 06 October 2024 - 14:00.

[H0R]

 

Would ruin the sport.

 

I am not sure that there is much left to ruin.

[Ruusperi]

I just want less greedy 2-car teams, so we can finally have full 26-car-grid once again.

[Nathan]

It's always greed when it someone else's money.  If I had my hand in your pocket though...

[IrvTheSwerve]

22 cars should be a minimum and it's easily achievable with the success and popularity of modern F1. The Andretti thing is scandalous. 

[Henri Greuter]

Once upon a time there was no restriction on how many teams could enter, how many cars they could run, or what liveries they used. The problems which arose then were: none. Zero. I'm all for doing away with pointless rules.

Hm...

 

I don't know in which of fellow member Doug Nye's books about BRM you can read more about the early 70's when they fielded (or at least tried to do so...) up to 5 cars during the season.

 

But in some annuals I read about those years it became clear for me that at least within the B(ritish) R(acing) M(isery) organisation (If it was worth that title...) a lot of problems arose due to that decision.....

[FLB]

Hm...

 

I don't know in which of fellow member Doug Nye's books about BRM you can read more about the early 70's when they fielded (or at least tried to do so...) up to 5 cars during the season.

 

But in some annuals I read about those years it became clear for me that at least within the B(ritish) R(acing) M(isery) organisation (If it was worth that title...) a lot of problems arose due to that decision.....

Yup.

 

Lunch with .... Tony Southgate - Motor Sport Magazine

 

 

 

For 1972 Big Lou had us running five cars, which was a pain in the neck [...]

[Sterzo]

Hm...

 

I don't know in which of fellow member Doug Nye's books about BRM you can read more about the early 70's when they fielded (or at least tried to do so...) up to 5 cars during the season.

 

But in some annuals I read about those years it became clear for me that at least within the B(ritish) R(acing) M(isery) organisation (If it was worth that title...) a lot of problems arose due to that decision.....

I attended quite a few F1 races in that period and followed it all avidly. The BRM team had problems, the sport didn't. The racing was great. Why would I prefer a race with fewer runners?

[Anderis]

I just want less greedy 2-car teams, so we can finally have full 26-car-grid once again.

 

It's always greed when it someone else's money.  If I had my hand in your pocket though...

TBH, it's not the greed of the current teams that's the main problem here, as where it's coming from is understandable.

 

It's how Liberty plays along with it. Clearly current rules and commercial agreement were written with 12 teams in mind, it's a disgrace that new entries aren't allowed in when we're below that number. Current teams should have no say in this.
 

[FirstnameLastname]

‘Let a couple new teams in, or you’ll have to field 3 cars each’

Let the teams decide

[highdownforce]

Let me see... I'll try to juxtapose some ideas that from time to time float around in this forum: Wildcards, Custom cars and different liveries intra team.

Welcome to MotoGP.

[loki]

Who will pay for these cars?

[midgrid]

‘Let a couple new teams in, or you’ll have to field 3 cars each’

Let the teams decide

We'll probably end up with new Toro Rosso/Alpha Tauri/Racing Bulls satellite teams if the existing teams are given that decision.

[Anderis]

We'll probably end up with new Toro Rosso/Alpha Tauri/Racing Bulls satellite teams if the existing teams are given that decision.

That's what the big teams tried to do for 2010 but FIA accepted the teams that had a deal with Cosworth instead.

[andysaint]

Not needed and wouldn’t work. There are many other problems that need fixing

[ARTGP]

If cars can't overtake, it doesn't matter if teams have 3, 4 or 10 car operations. What does adding those cars improve? Is it just to help get more rookies on the grid? 

Edited by ARTGP, 06 October 2024 - 18:33.

[FirstnameLastname]

Who will pay for these cars?

Top 6 teams pay into a fund to allow the bottom 4 teams to field extra cars

[PayasYouRace]

If cars can't overtake, it doesn't matter if teams have 3, 4 or 10 car operations. What does adding those cars improve? Is it just to help get more rookies on the grid? 

Is this a comment from five years ago?

[Wes350]

TBH, it's not the greed of the current teams that's the main problem here, as where it's coming from is understandable.

 

It's how Liberty plays along with it. Clearly current rules and commercial agreement were written with 12 teams in mind, it's a disgrace that new entries aren't allowed in when we're below that number. Current teams should have no say in this.
 

 

This.

 

Andretti and HiTec should be joining the grid in 2026.

 

The reasons why they are not are specious and self serving.

 

FOM could easily afford to bump the payout to accommodate them and shut down the teams objections.

 

It's all one big circle-jerk of greed.

[Ali_G]

I’d rather we revisit open competition with anyone capable of building a Formula 1 car being allowed to attempt to qualify for races. Solve the problem at its source.

Assume this still existence from a sporting regulation perspective. Problem is that teams would be locked out from the financial side. At least that’s what it looks like with Michael Andretti’s entry attempt.


Suspect the days of pre-qual will never return.

Edited by Ali_G, 07 October 2024 - 06:48.

[PayasYouRace]

Assume this still existence from a sporting regulation perspective. Problem is that teams would be locked out from the financial side. At least that’s what it looks like with Michael Andretti’s entry attempt.


Suspect the days of pre-qual will never return.

None of these are insurmountable problems. I don’t think it would take a financial genius to find a way of supporting every team fairly.

[Ali_G]

None of these are insurmountable problems. I don’t think it would take a financial genius to find a way of supporting every team fairly.

I think the issue would side on the teams side. You’ll inevitably end up with teams who will never qualify. This was ok during garagiste times. I couldn’t imagine teams building cars today with little chance of qualifying.

Full customer cars from a chassis builder may be the answer.

[PayasYouRace]

I think the issue would side on the teams side. You’ll inevitably end up with teams who will never qualify. This was ok during garagiste times. I couldn’t imagine teams building cars today with little chance of qualifying.

Full customer cars from a chassis builder may be the answer.

I’m quite content that teams that can never qualify go bust eventually. But want anyone who wants to be able to turn up, with as many cars as they want. Want to run a single car? Go for it. Want to enter only a few races? Fine by me. Want to enter four cars for your junior drivers? Happy days. Want to buy a McLaren and run that? Good for you, let’s do it.

[MattK9]

Teams need more data. An extra car would be extra data.

So running a 3rd car would be a benefit.

So only let teams 5th or below in the Constructors Standings final results run a 3rd car for the next year. That is 6 extra cars on the grid.

 

Lower teams get extra cars which should help close up the grid, 6 extra seats mean a better F1 ladder, and it would rarely give a team a full podium lock out.

[Stoffel]

Teams need more data. An extra car would be extra data.

So running a 3rd car would be a benefit.

So only let teams 5th or below in the Constructors Standings final results run a 3rd car for the next year. That is 6 extra cars on the grid.

 

Lower teams get extra cars which should help close up the grid, 6 extra seats mean a better F1 ladder, and it would rarely give a team a full podium lock out.

 

 

But do the lower teams have the money to run an extra car? And what happens to the extra personnel needed to run the 3rd car if a lower team finishes 4th the next year?

[Anderis]

I’m quite content that teams that can never qualify go bust eventually. But want anyone who wants to be able to turn up, with as many cars as they want. Want to run a single car? Go for it. Want to enter only a few races? Fine by me. Want to enter four cars for your junior drivers? Happy days. Want to buy a McLaren and run that? Good for you, let’s do it.

I can't imagine this not turning out very ugly at some point.

 

Why wouldn't the teams run as many cars and customer teams as physically possible to gain more power and control over the race and the sport? At the point when one of the teams gains a long term performance advantage over the others, we're getting to the point of no return. I imagine a race in 2016 with only Mercedes and Mercedes B teams inside top10. And it's not like there'll be someone else left in the sport to stop their domination eventually at this point.

 

Having watched WTCC during times when only 3 proper constructors were fielding some 20 cars combined, that's not what I would like to see in F1. Those races were such big team order farces sometimes, every 2nd driver moving over for someone during a race.

[PayasYouRace]

I can't imagine this not turning out very ugly at some point.

Why wouldn't the teams run as many cars and customer teams as physically possible to gain more power and control over the race and the sport? At the point when one of the teams gains a long term performance advantage over the others, we're getting to the point of no return. I imagine a race in 2016 with only Mercedes and Mercedes B teams inside top10. And it's not like there'll be someone else left in the sport to stop their domination eventually at this point.

Having watched WTCC during times when only 3 proper constructors were fielding some 20 cars combined, that's not what I would like to see in F1. Those races were such big team order farces sometimes, every 2nd driver moving over for someone during a race.

The alternative scenario is the peak of CART, in which multiple competitive teams battled with the same chassis and engines and there weee few concerns about team orders.

The one thing I didn’t mention in my post as implicitly not allowed, but I’ll make it explicit now, is banning of joint ownership. So there would be customer teams, but no B-teams. My aim would be CART, not DTM.

[danmills]

Teams used to bring a near complete spare car every weekend - not sure they still do? And in the event of a Friday or Saturday crash they could get back running pretty quickly.

 

It might be a stretch but besides garage space (have a car sit out front, put removeable canopies on the pits?) I guess it wouldn't be that hard to run a third car, maybe extend session lengths to help.

[absinthedude]

As a few others have said, I'd prefer the teams/FOM/Liberty stopped behaving like utterly spoiled babies and that we had more teams in F1. Got the ability to build and field a car which complies with all the rules, passes the crash tests and got a driver or two with a superlicense? Good! You're in. 

 

"OMG! Some cars might not qualify!" Yup...used to happen....it was no big deal. 30+ cars vying for 26 grid slots, some didn't even make qualifying and had to pre-qualify on Friday morning. More track time! An extra session! I thought this regime believed that more was better?

 

"OMG! Some teams might not do well and might fall out of F1!"....yup, used to happen. Even formerly great names like BRM, Brabham, Lotus, Cooper. It is the way of things. 

 

The very real problem with 3rd (and potentially 4th) cars is that you end up with a situation that some other racing series have had with very few different chassis/cars on the track. 

 

The simple solution is....let Andretti in....along with anyone else who passes a *reasonable* test of finances and ability to field a compliant car/driver. 

[pdac]

Top 6 teams pay into a fund to allow the bottom 4 teams to field extra cars

 

The world, more and more, is moving away from the idea of taxing the rich to pay the poor. The reason being that those 'rich' are the ones who steer policy and they kind of like keeping their money. Same with F1, top teams are not going to go for the idea of them giving out charity donations.

[MattK9]

But do the lower teams have the money to run an extra car? And what happens to the extra personnel needed to run the 3rd car if a lower team finishes 4th the next year?

 

They could be given the option of running a 3rd car. I'm sure most would.

If they finish 4th then the next year they are down to 2 cars.

[PayasYouRace]

But do the lower teams have the money to run an extra car? And what happens to the extra personnel needed to run the 3rd car if a lower team finishes 4th the next year?

Perhaps a system where the 1st ranked constructor can enter a 3rd car in, say, 5 races, the 2nd ranked 6, the 3rd ranked 7, etc until the last place team gets 10 races to run a third car. They can choose which races to run the extra car as they see fit.

[Sterzo]

None of these are insurmountable problems. I don’t think it would take a financial genius to find a way of supporting every team fairly.

I think the cost cap is the key to this. We've established the principle that costs should be capped; now let's see the cap progressively reduced, and the FOM payments reduced in proportion. Then more teams could run without increasing the overall total cost.

[Nathan]

"Why did you have you make things so complicated..."

[Secretariat]

I think allowing 3rd cars would be nice. However, I would constraint it to wildcard entries (3 per team) but they would either not be eligible or WCC points or the team would need to nominate only 2 drivers for WCC points. To my recollection the WRC used to implement something like this before.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Teams used to bring a near complete spare car every weekend - not sure they still do? And in the event of a Friday or Saturday crash they could get back running pretty quickly.

 

It might be a stretch but besides garage space (have a car sit out front, put removeable canopies on the pits?) I guess it wouldn't be that hard to run a third car, maybe extend session lengths to help.

 

Nope, they don't bring a spare car any longer.

 

The garage space I think is a bit of an excuse that teams use - I reckon you could fit another car with peripherals in there fine - the teams currently spread out with computer screens/benches throughout - maybe they should optimise their space a bit.

[Planetdune]

I'd love to see three car teams, but the biggest fear is a Red Bull style season where the podium features all the same trio.

 

Would ruin the sport.

 

Easy, change the podium to consist of 4 drivers instead of 3. Fixed.

[Gravelngrass]

If TOs are abolished, it would be great as there would be a closer battle between 12 cars instead of 8. But having 3 drivers not alllowed to race each other and trying to mess with the competition is too much. Also, it would send the midfield further into oblivion, making them question their involvement in the sport and potentially result in less variety. But ultimately, if they don’t change the current paradigm of F1, it’ll just be more cars conserving things instead of racing…

[pdac]

Why not just say to all teams right now that they can opt to enter more cars and if the field is over-subscribed, then the FIA will either use qualifying to limit the race field or else will simply put all submissions into a ballot and the lucky few will get the extra places. If teams feel they have the extra cash to field another car, then they can put in a submission.

Edited by pdac, 07 October 2024 - 15:28.