82 replies to this topic

[Nathan]

 But ultimately, if they don’t change the current paradigm of F1, it’ll just be more cars conserving things instead of racing…

 

Like saving fuel during the entire turbo era, and easing off when one can so as not to be one of the 50% of cars that DNF'd that day?  Do people really think 40 years ago cars were being raced flat out for 300 kms?  Maybe we just need to go back to cross ply tires? Maybe people need to go back and watch races from years gone by.

[MikeTekRacing]

If TOs are abolished, it would be great as there would be a closer battle between 12 cars instead of 8. But having 3 drivers not alllowed to race each other and trying to mess with the competition is too much. Also, it would send the midfield further into oblivion, making them question their involvement in the sport and potentially result in less variety. But ultimately, if they don’t change the current paradigm of F1, it’ll just be more cars conserving things instead of racing…

it's not like it wasn't tried.

It's impossible to do. Mandate 1 car teams or accept teams will act as a team...

[pdac]

it's not like it wasn't tried.

It's impossible to do. Mandate 1 car teams or accept teams will act as a team...

 

Technically, it could done - just remove every possible means for the team to communicate with the drivers.

Edited by pdac, 07 October 2024 - 20:42.

[FirstnameLastname]

I think allowing 3rd cars would be nice. However, I would constraint it to wildcard entries (3 per team) but they would either not be eligible or WCC points or the team would need to nominate only 2 drivers for WCC points. To my recollection the WRC used to implement something like this before.

Nah, this kind of crap would ruin it … they are either proper entries or not. The team would treat the 3rd car/driver as a total afterthought if they couldn’t contribute to the team points total

[FirstnameLastname]

Technically, it could done - just remove every possible means for the team to communicate with the drivers.

Remove the drivers

And the teams.

[Sterzo]

We do seem adept at imagining non-existent problems whenever there's a suggestion for change. In how many races have team orders played a part? Can anyone cite examples of races ruined by the use of team orders? What's the probability of a third car being in the right position to multiply the effect of team orders? Back when three car teams were the norm, were team orders a problem?

 

Here's an objection to third cars. More cars means more crashes so more safety cars. Let's reduce the grid!

[Nathan]

"Mate, your team mate is on a different tire strategy, can you let him by." We want to see team mates tripping each other up because they are 'in the zone' cocooned away in their car. Makes it just that much more fun to watch.  More variable.

 

We should have 4 car teams.  Surely everyone has seen the car stacks rich folk have in their garages so they can park their pointless Lambo on top of their disgusting Mercedes?  Those can be installed in F1 pit lanes. I mean effing YouTubers have them given to them.  Boom, instant 52 car capacity.

 

With 52 cars we will need pre-pre qualifying on Wednesdays.  5 days of track action.  The 26 that don't qualify for Sundays 2pm GP start get to do the 10am Race of Laurels for non qualifiers. The winner gets an automatic entry for the following Grand Prix.  Each team is mandated to have 1 former Indy car race winner & 1 former F2/SuperFormula champion.  Only 2 drivers in a team can have more than 100 GP starts.  The team that wins the WCC has to replace all their drivers at the end of the season. Minimum 2 season gap before returning. And a fan vote that selects one car to blow its engine on the last lap of each race (Race of Laurels included).

Edited by Nathan, 07 October 2024 - 21:46.

[absinthedude]

Like saving fuel during the entire turbo era, and easing off when one can so as not to be one of the 50% of cars that DNF'd that day?  Do people really think 40 years ago cars were being raced flat out for 300 kms?  Maybe we just need to go back to cross ply tires? Maybe people need to go back and watch races from years gone by.

 

This is why it is important to maintain an archive of hundreds of video tapes 

I can go back and watch pretty much every race from 1979-2018 and selected races back to the mid 70s. I know what, in my view, was better and what wasn't. I didn't like the extreme fuel saving of the first turbo era, but I quite liked eeking out worn tyres or nursing cars with part failing transmission or some other mechanical fault. 

 

But yes, other than maybe the mid 90s with Schumacher there was no flat out for 90 minutes, 50 qualifying laps in a row or whatever. 

[Beri]

And yet; the Qatar race of last year did show that driving flat out for the duration of a race, is a real challenge and does separate the wheat from the chaff. And there was only one rule needed to implement that. It was no major overhaul of regulations or such. And yet only 1 car retired due to mechanical issues. 

[Clatter]

We do seem adept at imagining non-existent problems whenever there's a suggestion for change. In how many races have team orders played a part? Can anyone cite examples of races ruined by the use of team orders? What's the probability of a third car being in the right position to multiply the effect of team orders? Back when three car teams were the norm, were team orders a problem?

Here's an objection to third cars. More cars means more crashes so more safety cars. Let's reduce the grid!

In recent times not so many, but I think there are many that could be listed from the schumacher era.

[Sterzo]

In recent times not so many, but I think there are many that could be listed from the schumacher era.

...and you know what I'm going to say now. Go ahead and list them. As a reminder, by all means list all the examples of team orders, but we're talking here specifically about team orders which spoiled the races.

[Beri]

And define "spoil races". Because when Barrichello let Schumacher pass in Austria, it was because of gaining championship points. Regardless of all the sentiment back then, I can imagine that this is exactly what you would like to see, if you were a Ferrari fan, to have the team do everything it can to win the championship. Even hand out such team orders. I wouldnt call it spoiling a race.

[Clatter]

...and you know what I'm going to say now. Go ahead and list them. As a reminder, by all means list all the examples of team orders, but we're talking here specifically about team orders which spoiled the races.

I can't list them all, and I'm not going to go back through all the races searching for them. Two I can remember are Austria 2001 and Austria 2002.

[Clatter]

And define "spoil races". Because when Barrichello let Schumacher pass in Austria, it was because of gaining championship points. Regardless of all the sentiment back then, I can imagine that this is exactly what you would like to see, if you were a Ferrari fan, to have the team do everything it can to win the championship. Even hand out such team orders. I wouldnt call it spoiling a race.

To me they did spoil the races. I think the stage of the season pays a great deal into what are acceptable TO's, but that's just my opinion.

[PlatenGlass]

I wouldn't say Austria 2001 spoilt the race in any major way, though it's subjective. It wasn't for the win and Barrichello wasn't ahead "on merit". It was because Montoya had previously outbraked Schumacher off the circuit.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 08 October 2024 - 10:05.

[pdac]

I would be up for teams having as many cars entered as they want, but only awarding points to the highest finishing car in each team.

Edited by pdac, 08 October 2024 - 10:05.

[Beri]

Id even go as far as saying that team orders are part of the sport. Working together as a driver to end up with the best result for your or the teams campaign. And if that is done with 1, 2 or 3 cars, that doesnt matter to me.

[Clatter]

I would be up for teams having as many cars entered as they want, but only awarding points to the highest finishing car in each team.

The only problem is that the extra cars could then be used purely as road blocks. Not that they couldn't be anyway, but with no points on offer it makes it an easier thing to do.

Edited by Clatter, 08 October 2024 - 10:09.

[PayasYouRace]

I would be up for teams having as many cars entered as they want, but only awarding points to the highest finishing car in each team.

Use the ensign14 system, and only award WCC points to the lowest placed car from each constructor.

[Sterzo]

The only problem is that the extra cars could then be used purely as road blocks. Not that they couldn't be anyway, but with no points on offer it makes it an easier thing to do.

That's true, but it's all about probability and the actual effect which, in the absence of any knowledge on my part, I'd rate as the square root of not a lot.

[Nathan]

I can't list them all, and I'm not going to go back through all the races searching for them. Two I can remember are Austria 2001 and Austria 2002.

This is like when my grandma would tell me not to do something common because Johnny Boychuk died doing it in 1973.

[pdac]

The only problem is that the extra cars could then be used purely as road blocks. Not that they couldn't be anyway, but with no points on offer it makes it an easier thing to do.

 

Well, if the team dictates to all of their drivers which of them is going to get the points, then they could do that - and it's fine as it's a team sport. But otherwise, each team member is going to be out to get the top position. Anyway, it will inevitably lead to much more battling between drivers in general, which I think is what a lot of people would like to see.

[Secretariat]

Nah, this kind of crap would ruin it … they are either proper entries or not. The team would treat the 3rd car/driver as a total afterthought if they couldn’t contribute to the team points total

It is a fair critique, but I don't think we will ever see 30 car grids in the traditional sense and might not see any additional teams for a long time, if ever...especially in a budget cap era. Therefore in terms of additional cars, I would take a few wildcard entries as opposed to the status quo.

Edited by Secretariat, 08 October 2024 - 10:41.

[Gravelngrass]

Like saving fuel during the entire turbo era, and easing off when one can so as not to be one of the 50% of cars that DNF'd that day?  Do people really think 40 years ago cars were being raced flat out for 300 kms?  Maybe we just need to go back to cross ply tires? Maybe people need to go back and watch races from years gone by.

It's a fallacy that the past defines the future. Given today's reliability, tyre construction technology, what we have learned from past cars and rules, just to name a few, races could be much better in terms of pushing closer to the limit for more time. The only limit is probably in the minds of rule makers and, apparently, some fans. 

[Gravelngrass]

it's not like it wasn't tried.

It's impossible to do. Mandate 1 car teams or accept teams will act as a team...

How many things F1 has tried, have been tried in a crappy way? If they want to control it, or otherwise de-incentivize it, there are ways via rules and/or technology to achieve it. 

[PayasYouRace]

It's a fallacy that the past defines the future. Given today's reliability, tyre construction technology, what we have learned from past cars and rules, just to name a few, races could be much better in terms of pushing closer to the limit for more time. The only limit is probably in the minds of rule makers and, apparently, some fans.

But does pushing to the limit the whole way actually produce a better race?

[mclarensmps]

Top 6 teams pay into a fund to allow the bottom 4 teams to field extra cars

 

The top team in f1 already pays another team to field 2 extra cars. IMO it's a model we don't need 

[Gravelngrass]

But does pushing to the limit the whole way actually produce a better race?

At least it would allow drivers to race at any point during the race, which would improve the probability of having a more entertaining race. These days there are certain moments in races specifically selected for conservation, tyres mainly, where drivers basically are told to drive to deltas. And there’s also the constant sword of Damocles factor of engine, gearbox, etc. conservation. The whole paradigm is just so opposed to the very concept of racing…

[PayasYouRace]

At least it would allow drivers to race at any point during the race, which would improve the probability of having a more entertaining race. These days there are certain moments in races specifically selected for conservation, tyres mainly, where drivers basically are told to drive to deltas. And there’s also the constant sword of Damocles factor of engine, gearbox, etc. conservation. The whole paradigm is just so opposed to the very concept of racing…

It isn’t though. Many forms of racing (not just motor racing) require different levels of effort at different stages. Only the shortest of short sprints require max effort 100%.

I will always argue that if everyone is pushing flat out the whole way, there’s no way for an entertaining race to develop. It’s also far less interesting if there’s no tactics other than drive as fast as you can the whole time.

[Sterzo]

It isn’t though. Many forms of racing (not just motor racing) require different levels of effort at different stages. Only the shortest of short sprints require max effort 100%.

I will always argue that if everyone is pushing flat out the whole way, there’s no way for an entertaining race to develop. It’s also far less interesting if there’s no tactics other than drive as fast as you can the whole time.

There's obviously some truth in that, but I'd point at karting (including GP-length events) and Formula Ford, which produce exciting racing without relying on strategies, pitstops, or fuel conservation. Tyres degrade, but so little that tyre management is barely a factor. There's something odd about spending billions more to achieve less exciting racing.

 

(For clarity, I know fierce battles aren't the only appeal of motor racing, but the point stands).

[MikeTekRacing]

How many things F1 has tried, have been tried in a crappy way? If they want to control it, or otherwise de-incentivize it, there are ways via rules and/or technology to achieve it. 

 this reminds me of the joke about fans of communism always pointing out it was badly tried were it failed...

 

are there ways? 

even if you remove ANY form of communication (remove even pit-boards), they can still instruct drivers before the race to let their team mates pass.

Since 2 people have the same employer team orders are impossible to police. Since you will have to accept some level of team orders, then it's just a question of how much of a charade do you want? George, Lewis just reported he is happy with his tyres. Are you happy with yours or are you struggling a bit with grip? Carlos, please remember to cool the engine so try using a mode 4.

Can you forbid these? 

[Gravelngrass]

It isn’t though. Many forms of racing (not just motor racing) require different levels of effort at different stages. Only the shortest of short sprints require max effort 100%.

I will always argue that if everyone is pushing flat out the whole way, there’s no way for an entertaining race to develop. It’s also far less interesting if there’s no tactics other than drive as fast as you can the whole time.

I was referring to the conservation paradigm. Auto racing per se is the antithesis of conservation…

[Gravelngrass]

this reminds me of the joke about fans of communism always pointing out it was badly tried were it failed...

are there ways?
even if you remove ANY form of communication (remove even pit-boards), they can still instruct drivers before the race to let their team mates pass.
Since 2 people have the same employer team orders are impossible to police. Since you will have to accept some level of team orders, then it's just a question of how much of a charade do you want? George, Lewis just reported he is happy with his tyres. Are you happy with yours or are you struggling a bit with grip? Carlos, please remember to cool the engine so try using a mode 4.
Can you forbid these?

I didn’t say I have the answer. Maybe a disincentive instead of penalties?