85 replies to this topic

[ExFlagMan]

Autosport web site has headline article that COTA has installed 'fake gravel traps' at some corners to deter track limits abuse.

 

Fake gravel among new track limits measures for US Grand Prix (autosport.com)

 

Not sure how much of a deterrent areas of resin bonded gravel will be.

 

I wonder which driver will be nominated as the 'test bed dummy' to try it out for grip during FP1.

[Goron3]

Similar to Zandvoort in S3 which works well. CoTA is a great track ruined by a sea of tarmac. Hopefully this fixes the issue of track limits a bit more.

Doesn't look like they've resolved the exit of turn 1 though.

[Risil]

Fake gravel!

[PayasYouRace]

Yeah I thought it worked quite well at Zandvoort. Still works like a gravel trap but doesn’t bring loose stones on the track.

[loki]

Put a wall where they want to enforce track limits.  “Thee Worlds Greatest Drivers” should have no problem avoiding it…

[Secretariat]

I wonder what the differences are between this "fake gravel" at Zandvoort/COTA and the tarmac runoff system (blue/red zones) originally implemented at Paul Ricard when it was renovated as a test track.

[pup]

Fake gravel!

 

Is nothing sacred?

[Sterzo]

The topic heading has given me earworm: Fake Plastic Trees.

[MikeTekRacing]

Put a wall where they want to enforce track limits.  “Thee Worlds Greatest Drivers” should have no problem avoiding it…

that's have a championship at Baku, Saudi Arabia and Singapore only then

[Maustinsj]

The topic heading has given me earworm: Fake Plastic Trees.

 

This news wears me out.

[Ruusperi]

When exactly did MotoGP start requiring tarmac run-off areas? Back when I used to follow MotoGP actively (in 2005-06), all tracks like Assen, Sachenring, Brno or Laguna Seca were "old-school" with only gravel or grass beyond the white line. Nowadays they seem to be very anal with asphalt run-off areas, whereas F1 seems to be reverting back to gravel.

[LolaB0860]

Nowadays they seem to be very anal with asphalt run-off areas, whereas F1 seems to be reverting back to gravel.

 

Well, sort of reverting...

[azza200]

Fake gravel!

 

yes next to the fake barriers 

[efuloni]

How much longer untill we have a digitally imposed loss of power to those who go off-track?

[Peeko]

This news wears me out.

 

I could blow through the ceiling myself.

[F1 Mike]

What is the advantage of fake gravel over gravel itself?

[ARTGP]

What is the advantage of fake gravel over gravel itself?

 

It's lower maintenance and less disruptive to the track foundation (they'll need to remove it for MotoGP). Real gravel traps have to be maintained (refilled and leveled) since the cars will tend to excavate the trap when cross it. 

Edited by ARTGP, 07 October 2024 - 23:15.

[baddog]

What is the advantage of fake gravel over gravel itself?

 

make driving on it slow and disadvantageous, but dont scatter gravel on the road too endanger other  cars and need cleanup.

[loki]

Miami: Fake marina

COTA: Fake gravel

Vegas: Fake boobs

[SB]

Put a wall where they want to enforce track limits.  “Thee Worlds Greatest Drivers” should have no problem avoiding it…

 

Heard about the "Wall of Champions" in Canada yet ?!   

[Beri]

I wonder what the differences are between this "fake gravel" at Zandvoort/COTA and the tarmac runoff system (blue/red zones) originally implemented at Paul Ricard when it was renovated as a test track.

Well; the Zandvoort solution, which now seems to has found its way into COTA, consists out of an actual gravel trap that has resin poured in to hold the gravel together. At Zandvoort it's only the edge of the gravel trap and the rest is still actual gravel.
The solution at Paul Ricard is abrasive tarmac. Which destroys your tyres if you go over it.

[jonklug]

Miami: Fake marina

COTA: Fake gravel

Vegas: Fake boobs

 

I mean... one is unlike the others

[Beri]

So in essence you are saying; its unique and thus special? 

[Risil]

Is nothing sacred?

Truly they paved over paradise (a big pit of gravel) and put up a parking lot (resin bonded gravel).

[JRodrigues]

This news wears me out.

 

It looks like the real thing.

[cbo]

How much longer untill we have a digitally imposed loss of power to those who go off-track?

Four wheels of the track, picked up by sensors and engine power is reduced to that of a Morris Minor for 10 seconds....

That might work.....🤔

[Secretariat]

Well; the Zandvoort solution, which now seems to has found its way into COTA, consists out of an actual gravel trap that has resin poured in to hold the gravel together. At Zandvoort it's only the edge of the gravel trap and the rest is still actual gravel.
The solution at Paul Ricard is abrasive tarmac. Which destroys your tyres if you go over it.

Thanks. Was wondering if the difference was actually that simple; I guess it is.

[7MGTEsup]

When exactly did MotoGP start requiring tarmac run-off areas? Back when I used to follow MotoGP actively (in 2005-06), all tracks like Assen, Sachenring, Brno or Laguna Seca were "old-school" with only gravel or grass beyond the white line. Nowadays they seem to be very anal with asphalt run-off areas, whereas F1 seems to be reverting back to gravel.

 

Riders tend to flip through gravel causing broken bones, they tend to slide over tarmac.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Four wheels of the track, picked up by sensors and engine power is reduced to that of a Morris Minor for 10 seconds....

That might work.....

 

Can't see any safety issues with a car joining back on to the racing line with significantly reduced speed...

[RedRabbit]

Riders tend to flip through gravel causing broken bones, they tend to slide over tarmac.

I guess things must have started changing to favour tarmac with improved race suits and built in airbags.

There's also the argument that tarmac will prevent some falls entirely, which we see every race with riders going off track and able to rejoin later.

[PayasYouRace]

Can't see any safety issues with a car joining back on to the racing line with significantly reduced speed...

Why is the driver unsafely rejoining the track on the racing line?

[IrvTheSwerve]

Why is the driver unsafely rejoining the track on the racing line?

 

All hypothetical obviously but I would guess racing drivers being racing drivers they would run wide, join back onto the track onto the racing line in the hope that they got away with it, and then the power would cut out. Either that or they'd have to join the track and instantly pull across it to get off the racing line, which would also be hazardous.

 

The other option is to stay off track, but that would be unrealistic as they'd 1) be picking up marbles/dirt and 2) they wouldn't really know if their power was being cut until they join back on to the track anyway, as we're dealing with a tenth of a second or so between them going off track and coming back on...

 

It's a nice idea but I could see it causing issues.

[PayasYouRace]

All hypothetical obviously but I would guess racing drivers being racing drivers they would run wide, join back onto the track onto the racing line in the hope that they got away with it, and then the power would cut out. Either that or they'd have to join the track and instantly pull across it to get off the racing line, which would also be hazardous.

The other option is to stay off track, but that would be unrealistic as they'd 1) be picking up marbles/dirt and 2) they wouldn't really know if their power was being cut until they join back on to the track anyway, as we're dealing with a tenth of a second or so between them going off track and coming back on...

It's a nice idea but I could see it causing issues.

The power would be cut as they left the track, not as they rejoined. It would be a terrible system otherwise.

Driver would know that the power cut would be happening, so would know not to immediately rejoin the track and stay clear of drivers in front who had gone off track. And what you’re describing is such an edge case that isn’t too different from reckless driving today.

[Maustinsj]

It looks like the real thing.

 

That's enough of that.

 

 

Just turn and run.

[Taxi]

It's America. Of course it's fake. 

[pup]

It's America. Of course it's fake. 

Oh, like Europe even has gravel.  

[Beri]

It looks like the real thing.

 

Havent seen any pictures. Anyone care to share?

[IrvTheSwerve]

The power would be cut as they left the track, not as they rejoined. It would be a terrible system otherwise.

Driver would know that the power cut would be happening, so would know not to immediately rejoin the track and stay clear of drivers in front who had gone off track. And what you’re describing is such an edge case that isn’t too different from reckless driving today.

 

I just don't think there's enough time for the driver to process that the power has been cut...when cars are exceeding track limits they are out of bounds for literally a tenth or so, they are steering to come back on to the track already as they are sliding wide. They wouldn't necessarily be coming back on to the racing line recklessly, I just think that they'd be back on the racing line before they process that the power is cut. Then you've got following cars having to dive out of the way.

 

It may be an 'edge' case but a lot of these track limits issues are dealing with inches of the car out of bounds...

[Sterzo]

I think the "power cut penalty" for an off idea is an escapee from the Track Limits thread. It doesn't have to be severe or instantaneous - could be as simple as limiting revs on the main straight on the following lap,served off line and with plenty of warning.

[IrvTheSwerve]

I think the "power cut penalty" for an off idea is an escapee from the Track Limits thread. It doesn't have to be severe or instantaneous - could be as simple as limiting revs on the main straight on the following lap,served off line and with plenty of warning.

 

Yeah, I think there'd have to be a designated 'zone' for it (which would have some problems in itself), but you're right, we're veering OT. 

[PayasYouRace]

I just don't think there's enough time for the driver to process that the power has been cut...when cars are exceeding track limits they are out of bounds for literally a tenth or so, they are steering to come back on to the track already as they are sliding wide. They wouldn't necessarily be coming back on to the racing line recklessly, I just think that they'd be back on the racing line before they process that the power is cut. Then you've got following cars having to dive out of the way.

It may be an 'edge' case but a lot of these track limits issues are dealing with inches of the car out of bounds...

It’s not like the cars can follow each other that closely anyway.

[AustinF1]

Havent seen any pictures. Anyone care to share?

I can't find any, but from what I've read, it sounds like the gravel is the same as the Zandvoort resin/gravel surface, which iirc works pretty well.

Edited by AustinF1, 08 October 2024 - 16:46.

[MikeTekRacing]

Miami: Fake marina

COTA: Fake gravel

Vegas: Fake boobs

 

 

It's America. Of course it's fake. 

 

 

I can't find any, but from what I've read, it sounds like the gravel is the same as the Zandvoort resin/gravel surface, which iirc works pretty well.

It's pretty obvious some just want to complain about the US races and facts like the one you put in don't matter. 

[GregThomas]

Riders tend to flip through gravel causing broken bones, they tend to slide over tarmac.

 

True. But resin bonded gravel would be like sliding across sandpaper. Coarse sandpaper.

 

Race suits are still organic leather and will stand up to a lot of abuse - but IMO,not that.

 

Yes, MotoGP has become rather anal about sealed runoff areas. But I doubt if many here appreciate

just how much faster the top class bikes are now.

The sealed areas off the circuit do at least offer a chance of recovering from a mistake which in the past

may well have had serious consequences.

[BRG]

Not sure if the MotoGP factor is as important as some imagine.  I have seen plenty of riders ending up in gravel traps this season, notably at Motegi last weekend.

[Beri]

Anyone found pictures already?

[Lee Nicolle]

Four wheels of the track, picked up by sensors and engine power is reduced to that of a Morris Minor for 10 seconds....

That might work.....

850 sidevalve!

[Mark A]

Looks like some other changes
 

• The asphalt has been renewed, along with a substantial number of kerbstones.
• The edges of several turns have been narrowed by a few meters and replaced with grass strips. This applies to turns 6, 13, 14, and 15.
• Additional cameras have been installed at strategic points on the circuit to better monitor track limits.
• The exit of turn 11 has been revamped. The infamous ‘turtle bumps’ have been replaced with faux gravel traps.
• The circuit’s drainage has been improved to better and more quickly drain rainwater.

[AustinF1]

 

Looks like some other changes
 

• The asphalt has been renewed, along with a substantial number of kerbstones.
• The edges of several turns have been narrowed by a few meters and replaced with grass strips. This applies to turns 6, 13, 14, and 15.
• Additional cameras have been installed at strategic points on the circuit to better monitor track limits.
• The exit of turn 11 has been revamped. The infamous ‘turtle bumps’ have been replaced with faux gravel traps.
• The circuit’s drainage has been improved to better and more quickly drain rainwater.

 

They keep saying this, but unless they finished a full resufacing since WEC was out there last month (which seems suboptimal and unlikely), it's more of the usual bs from COTA.

 

What really happened is that they finally resurfaced the front straight (which has needed it badly for several years, and down to T2, and some much smaller bits elsewhere. The front straight was the only remaining bit that had never been resurfaced, so Epstein's running around telling everyone who will listen that they finally 'resurfaced/renewed the track', which is only true in the sense that now none of it is the original surface. It's an improvement over last year, at least in the limited areas that were just resurfaced, but there will still be multiple different ages of surfaces throught the track. This is just more of the same grinding of bumps and then adding a new top layer, same as they've been doing for years, and will continue to do. The bumps just keep popping up. There will be some this year that weren't there last year, etc.

 

And re: the drainage improvements, I doubt that, too. They've said that before when nothing had actually been done.

Edited by AustinF1, 14 October 2024 - 17:43.

[Goron3]

Looking forward to seeing pictures. It's a great track ruined by track limit issues imo.