13 replies to this topic

[Nanni Dietrich]

According to all the available, authoritative sources, including champcarstats.com, racing-reference.info and dlg.speedfreaks.org, the Locomobile which finished in sixth place in the "Chanslor & Lyon Trophy Race" at Santa Monica road race course on 14 October 1911, was driven by Jack Fleming.

 

Jack Fleming was a Pope-Hartford factory driver active in the late 1910s, who won the Portola Festival Race at Oakland, California, in 1909 and finished sixth in the Vanderbilt Cup at Long Island Motor Parkway, in 1910.

 

Contemporary Californian newspapers indicated that the driver of the Locomobile bearing the race number #8 (or #33) at Santa Monica was NOT Jack Fleming, but Victor (Vic) Fleming, future Hollywood movie master. The car was entered by the Los Angeles Motor Car Co., a local Locomobile dealership.

 

At the time, the legendary director of the 1939 movie "Gone with the wind" was 22 years old. Victor Fleming's previous racing experience was acting as a crew member in a couple of races and reportedly the Santa Monica event was his sole connection to professional racing at the wheel of a race car.

 

Any confirmation?

Edited by Nanni Dietrich, 10 October 2024 - 15:21.

[Jim Thurman]

I doubt you'll get much other than crickets and tumbleweeds here, Nanni. That despite some real pre-WWI experts here.

 

What California newspapers did you check? Were they all from the same wire report?

 

Did you check the Los Angeles or Santa Monica newspapers?

 

Let me know, and I will see what I can find.

[Darren Galpin]

The Oxnard Courier, 14th October 1911, pg 1, confirms Vic Fleming, and this wasn't a wire report. My results came from the Phil Harms data, and I suspect that the others did too - we may have a replicated bug.....

[Darren Galpin]

The Oakland Tribune, 14th October 1911, pg 3 also confirms Vic Fleming. There are a number of other reports on the race, but they frequently say just Fleming. Note that Oxnard Courier gives a list of entries with race numbers and full names for all drivers, so I'd be reasonably confident in saying that you've found an issue.....

[Seppi_0_917PA]

I have the Harold Osmer/Phil Harms book "Real Road Racing, The Santa Monica Road Races". This has Jack Fleming / Locomobile number 33 placing 5th in the October 14, 1911 Light Car race (under 230 ci). And looking at the results for all four races that day, I don't see any cars with the number 8.
 
Edit to add a photo of the results shown in this book:
 

 

 

And there is this picture in the book:

 

Edited by Seppi_0_917PA, 09 October 2024 - 01:50.

[DCapps]

Los Angeles Times, 14 October 1911, Pg. III-1, has "Vic Fleming" entered as the driver for No. 33 Locomobile in the Light Car race in the race preview..

 

Also, the root of the problem is probably, as usual, Russ Catlin: he has "Jack Fleming" in the No, 33 Locomobile.

This is from the Gordon White  material in the IMS archives which matches what Catlin has in the February 1955 Speed Age chapter on 1911, pg. 69.

 

Fleming -- Jack or Vic -- s scarcely mentioned in any of the race reports, by the way...

[Seppi_0_917PA]

Google Books has the biography "Victor Fleming: An American Movie Master".
 
https://books.google...id=sGY1EAAAQBAJ
 
Available for preview is Chapter 2 "Cars, Cameras, Action!" which mentions his employment at the Los Angeles Motor Car Company and covers his entry into the Santa Monica race.
 
Sample page: 

[robert dick]

Jack Fleming, the Pope-Hartford driver in 1910 (from the Detroit Public Library):

https://digitalcolle...ream/IMAGE/view


The Fleming on the Osmer/Harms photo is not the Pope-Harford driver Jack Fleming.
Certainly two different Flemings.
 

[Darren Galpin]

Thanks - good work everyone. I'll update my document and get it out there!

[Nanni Dietrich]

The Los Angeles Times, issue of 14 Oct 1911, page 25, article "Santa Monica Road Races Entries: Cars and Drivers"  https://www.newspape...mage/380298907/

"... Second event, baby car race... 33 - Locomobile, Vic Fleming..."

 

The Los Angeles Evening Express, issue of 14 Oct 1911, page 1, article "Second Race - 101.004 Miles"  https://www.newspape...mage/607879064/

"... Locomobile, Vic Fleming, flagged in tenth lap..."

[DCapps]

Gosh, there seems to be some life left in the crickets after all...

[Jim Thurman]

Gosh, there seems to be some life left in the crickets after all...

I, too, have been quite pleased - and rather shocked - to see the response here. I know we have some pre-WWI experts, and it is nice to have seen them reply 

 

Normally, when Nanni seeks information on obscure U.S. drivers or fatalities, it gets little response here, even more so when it involves oval racing.

[Darren Galpin]

The fix is now live at http://www.dlg.speed...e/book/1909.pdf - slipped in a few Spanish hillclimb results as well at the same time.

[DCapps]

C.G. "Chris" Sinsabaugh in his 1911 edition of Motor Age's Review of Road Racing (14 December 1911)  has "Locomobile, Vic Fleming, 10 laps," for the "231 and Under" 12 lap event at Santa Monica, on page 7 of the article.

 

This is where I first became confused with result in the Osmer/Harms book, not to mention that the photo of "Fleming" did not look like any I had seen of Jack Fleming elsewhere.