49 replies to this topic

[Autodromo]

All,

 

I know a lot of you have good insight into the inner workings of F1 teams and the sport itself and was wondering if anyone was aware of how Artificial Intelligence is being used.  I imagine it is being used to design cars (evaluate wind tunnel data, for instance, or design airflow), but I also wonder if teams use it to do things like race sims.  

 

It is a topic I haven't seen discussed here so I wanted to bring it up and see what people know or can speculate.

[mclarensmps]

Machine Learning and data crunching has been a part of F1 long before the AI buzzword got shoved down our throats over the last 5 years

[Viryfan]

The one topic that i find missing in F1 is quantum computing.

[azza200]

dont they already use AI with the Amazon AWS predications graphics?

[Autodromo]

Machine Learning and data crunching has been a part of F1 long before the AI buzzword got shoved down our throats over the last 5 years

Yes, but tools have gotten more powerful and flexible.  Opening up new areas where it might be used. 

[noikeee]

The one topic that i find missing in F1 is quantum computing.

Because quantum computers capable of any real applications don't really exist yet?

[TennisUK]

dont they already use AI with the Amazon AWS predications graphics?

They are extremely simplistic, that’s not really what we’d call AI these days.

[Sterzo]

The TV Director could be replaced with AI. But please make it better than the "Help" chatbots on websites, which employ AS. (Artificial Stupidity).

[Nathan]

Williams F1 drives digital transformation in racing with AI, quantum | VentureBeat

 

 

Hackland explains to VentureBeat how Williams F1 is looking to exploit data to make further advances up the grid and how emerging technologies, such as artificial intelligence (AI) and quantum computing, might help in that process.

This interview has been edited for clarity.

Edited by jcbc3, 14 October 2024 - 06:57.
Please don't quote full copyrighted articles.

[PayasYouRace]

All,

I know a lot of you have good insight into the inner workings of F1 teams and the sport itself and was wondering if anyone was aware of how Artificial Intelligence is being used. I imagine it is being used to design cars (evaluate wind tunnel data, for instance, or design airflow), but I also wonder if teams use it to do things like race sims.

It is a topic I haven't seen discussed here so I wanted to bring it up and see what people know or can speculate.

Teams have been using genetic algorithms for car design for many years now. The teams also use these sorts of things for race sims, to evaluate many different scenarios and come up with the best results. Ultimately, F1 teams are more concerned with computing techniques that can rapidly optimise solutions.

In terms of what we see a lot of in popular AI today, they’re pattern recognition machines that look for patterns and collate to create a passable work, and aren’t really of that much use in car development. They can’t create new ideas, only mishmashes of existing material.

[PayasYouRace]

The TV Director could be replaced with AI. But please make it better than the "Help" chatbots on websites, which employ AS. (Artificial Stupidity).

Geoff Crammond programmed an extremely competent AI TV director for his Grand Prix games back in 1996 (for Grand Prix 2). It would cycle between watching the top 3 for the most part, with occasional onboard views, but if an overtake was made, a driver left the track or had a mechanical problem, the direction would switch to that action.

It was simple, and obviously relied on the fact the game knew exactly what was going on at all times, but it still did a better job than the human TV directors we have for the most part.

[jonpollak]

The TV Director could be replaced with AI. But please make it better than the "Help" chatbots on websites, which employ AS. (Artificial Stupidity).

Punter: “Who’s leading the race?”

Bot: “ Formula One, officially known as the FIA Formula One World Championship, began in 1950. The series evolved from earlier auto racing competitions in Europe. The inaugural season featured seven races, including the British Grand Prix.”

Jp

[Nathan]

Larry David vs Siri 

 

https://youtu.be/kTe...DXdW4EfiKO4&t=6

[Analog]

I'm curious as to what extent FIA is "on top of" the use of AI in the F1 cars. Like when a driver is going to pit and he get the call from his RE " Strat mode 7 bla bla and bla bla," he could simply say "Kit, I'm going to pit this lap, prepare" and a bit later "I'm pitting now". In the race, he could say "Entering turn 6"  and Kit adjust the brake bias accordingly.

I don't know if it is possible to build a local AI into a car, but using the voice to control things must be much easier than all the know turning in stressful situations. Using normal voice activated commands would be difficult since the risk of errors would be too big. In an AI environment, the AI can keep track on what the possible options are in a certain moment and go "Turn six? No, surely you mean turn seven?"

I assume there are countless ways to use AI, also outside the cockpit, and also countless ways to hide it.  Has there been any discussions about this?

[Beri]

I'm curious as to what extent FIA is "on top of" the use of AI in the F1 cars. Like when a driver is going to pit and he get the call from his RE " Strat mode 7 bla bla and bla bla," he could simply say "Kit, I'm going to pit this lap, prepare" and a bit later "I'm pitting now". In the race, he could say "Entering turn 6"  and Kit adjust the brake bias accordingly.
I don't know if it is possible to build a local AI into a car, but using the voice to control things must be much easier than all the know turning in stressful situations. Using normal voice activated commands would be difficult since the risk of errors would be too big. In an AI environment, the AI can keep track on what the possible options are in a certain moment and go "Turn six? No, surely you mean turn seven?"
I assume there are countless ways to use AI, also outside the cockpit, and also countless ways to hide it. Has there been any discussions about this?

To much extend this already was a thing back in 1992 on the FW14b. The suspension was optimized for each corner. So altering the brake bias was, or at least would have been, very much possible as well.

The only issue being that this all is not so much AI as it is machine learning and optimization. But I do reckon AI will find its way into Formula One one day. Only to be banned by the FIA when it gets too much of an influence.

[Alfisti]

There's really no such thing as AI, not yet anyway. What we are seeing is you feed the beast a ton of information and it spits out a modeled response. It's not coming up with new ideas as "intelligence" would. There's already talk progress is rapidly slowing as we have fed the AI programs basically everything we have learned in human history and now it's absorbed all that it is struggling to progress beyond cool renderings of what Mike Tyson would look like in a space suit. 

 

Get back to me when it actually works. 

[Autodromo]

Great idea for a thread :-) 

 

https://forums.autos...in-formula-one/

[Autodromo]

There's really no such thing as AI, not yet anyway. What we are seeing is you feed the beast a ton of information and it spits out a modeled response. It's not coming up with new ideas as "intelligence" would. There's already talk progress is rapidly slowing as we have fed the AI programs basically everything we have learned in human history and now it's absorbed all that it is struggling to progress beyond cool renderings of what Mike Tyson would look like in a space suit. 

 

Get back to me when it actually works. 

Actually I think it is further along than you suggest.  I am in science and it does definitely find some new things.  I agree that a lot of what is touted as "AI" is not really "intelligence", but it is real and is being used.

[eibyyz]

Every car will be sponsored by Skynet...

[PayasYouRace]

The cars have standard ECUs, so. It sure where the scope for AI (or more correctly, LLMs) might be.

[Autodromo]

The cars have standard ECUs, so. It sure where the scope for AI (or more correctly, LLMs) might be.

Aerodynamics, parts production, part design, even developing race strategies or understanding tires.  

[PayasYouRace]

Aerodynamics, parts production, part design, even developing race strategies or understanding tires.

No, no. The cars have a standard ECU, so where are you installing the AI software?

The OP is specifically talking about using AI onboard cars, not in production or strategy optimisation.

[Autodromo]

No, no. The cars have a standard ECU, so where are you installing the AI software?

The OP is specifically talking about using AI onboard cars, not in production or strategy optimisation.

True, but those things same instructions could be asked by the driver to the engineer, who uses AI response, and sends back what should be done.  (edit: the OP did mention "outside the cockpit", which I took to mean more broadly in F1 but perhaps not).

Edited by Autodromo, 25 November 2024 - 15:04.

[PayasYouRace]

True, but those things same instructions could be asked by the driver to the engineer, who uses AI response, and sends back what should be done.

Which isn’t really what the OP is asking for. That’s literally what the drivers do now, and any race engineer worth his salt would have the answer ready to hand.

[ANF]

I've never been banging wheels with other drivers at 200 km/h, but I think I'd rather press a button in that scenario than try to give a voice command that can be interpreted by "intelligent" software.

[Stephane]

Drivving unaided and all this won't allow much of AI

[Risil]

Great idea for a thread :-) 

 

https://forums.autos...in-formula-one/

 

Merged

[Analog]

I've never been banging wheels with other drivers at 200 km/h, but I think I'd rather press a button in that scenario than try to give a voice command that can be interpreted by "intelligent" software.

Yes, me too, if it was to "press a button". For that to work they'd many many buttons, many many buttons...

The steps taken  in AI now are huge, too huge in my opinion, and while the regulations say a driver should drive the car "unaided," I'm sure there's a lot of grey areas there. Can they do "macros"? Like a button that changes both mapping and brake balance at the same time? The shift lights - are they not an aid? I mean, there's already a computer in there doing stuff, acting on hard data. AI could predict and suggest, similar to the shift lights.

[Stephane]

At some point they had a button to downshift from 6th to 3rd and that was banned.

[mclarensmps]

Actually I think it is further along than you suggest.  I am in science and it does definitely find some new things.  I agree that a lot of what is touted as "AI" is not really "intelligence", but it is real and is being used.

I believe the scientific/medical research "AI" is simply a function of being able to process data faster than humans, and thus discovering things based on this data faster than humans.

The other argument is that our own new ideas/concepts are simply a response to our experiences and learning we've taken in - however, publicly available "AI" is not yet able to design an abstract output based on the data fed to it.

[PlatenGlass]

Is this Big Al or Little Al?

[PayasYouRace]

Yes, me too, if it was to "press a button". For that to work they'd many many buttons, many many buttons...

The steps taken  in AI now are huge, too huge in my opinion, and while the regulations say a driver should drive the car "unaided," I'm sure there's a lot of grey areas there. Can they do "macros"? Like a button that changes both mapping and brake balance at the same time? The shift lights - are they not an aid? I mean, there's already a computer in there doing stuff, acting on hard data. AI could predict and suggest, similar to the shift lights.

I repeat my earlier question. The ECU is standard. Where are they going to install this AI software?

[Stephane]

They don't have only one chip in the car. The AO would be sending instructions to the ECU, I imagined

[Collombin]

Is this Big Al or Little Al?

You just don't know what AI means.

[PayasYouRace]

You just don't know what AI means.

Might be Uncle Bobby then.

[Autodromo]

Might be Uncle Bobby then.

I am not sure.  Or maybe I am Unser...

[Risil]

That pun was as borderline as the 1981 Indy 500

[chrcol]

"Lewis piiiifdjkhgjfkdhgkjdfhgjkdhgkjdfhgkjhdfjkghdkjghjkd", "please wait for reboot"

Lewis "guys speak to me, sounded like you want me to pit"

Vasseur "hold on lewis your engineer is rebooting, we will know what to do soon"

"Lewis our strategy at start is to do 16 laps on soft".

Lewis "what the hell man, we not at the start of the race"

"Lewis I have not yet sensed the starting procedure, it must mean the race has not started, keep your head down and calm"

Lewis "guys I am coming in, tyres have had it."

Vasseur "Lewis wait please, remember the mechanics are now also androids, and need your engineer to send them signal".

Lewis "guys I am at the pit, change the tyres quickly"

Vasseur "Lewis we talked about it, these guys are not humans anymore".

Lewis "oh man, DNF I am out of here, booked a flight back just in case, see you next week"

[Afterburner]

I’m fairly certain teams have been using AI-related algorithms to improve the accuracy of digital twins for evaluating part lifespans for a while now. I remember seeing an article about Williams doing this a few years ago so I’m sure all the teams have their own models.

[PayasYouRace]

Yeah, generic algorithms have undoubtedly been in use by the teams for a while, as we were touching on them at university 15 years ago. That’s the really useful aspects of “AI”.

[Analog]

I repeat my earlier question. The ECU is standard. Where are they going to install this AI software?

Is there are rule that the ECU should be the only computing device in the car?

[PayasYouRace]

Is there are rule that the ECU should be the only computing device in the car?

If it wasn’t it would be a bit of a problem enforcing things like the ban on traction control. You’d just have your bespoke computer do all that stuff.

If what you’re wanting is AI to act as a driver aid on board, you’re on to a non-starter. Anything that can directly control a function on the car must go through the ECU or not have any electronic logic on board.

One thing I’m not quite clear on is if you’re just asking for voice control functions, which are hardly advanced AI nowadays. They’re pretty typical in fighter aircraft, for example. But you’d not want something safety critical on there. If you’re just after a virtual assistant like Siri or Alexa, then you might as well just talk to your race engineer, who has access to a wealth of analytical tools,

[Analog]

If it wasn’t it would be a bit of a problem enforcing things like the ban on traction control. You’d just have your bespoke computer do all that stuff.

If what you’re wanting is AI to act as a driver aid on board, you’re on to a non-starter. Anything that can directly control a function on the car must go through the ECU or not have any electronic logic on board.

One thing I’m not quite clear on is if you’re just asking for voice control functions, which are hardly advanced AI nowadays. They’re pretty typical in fighter aircraft, for example. But you’d not want something safety critical on there. If you’re just after a virtual assistant like Siri or Alexa, then you might as well just talk to your race engineer, who has access to a wealth of analytical tools,

Yeah, I suspect FIA is looking at it from your point of view. And maybe you're right. Time will tell.

[Ali_G]

The one topic that i find missing in F1 is quantum computing.

Assume quantum computing may have applications for CFD calculations and optimization of aerodynamics. It may also help with strategy. Were years away from such quantum computers being powerful enough to help in any real world scenario.


In fact, I’d be surprised if teams aren’t trying to use AI for in race strategy calls.

Edited by Ali_G, 26 November 2024 - 10:45.

[Beri]

The one topic that i find missing in F1 is quantum computing.

 

Trust me, they do.

 

Thats an article dating back to 2021. Imagine what 3 years on looks like? Perhaps not widely known in the Media. But that doesnt mean it isnt there.

[PayasYouRace]

Trust me, they do.

Thats an article dating back to 2021. Imagine what 3 years on looks like? Perhaps not widely known in the Media. But that doesnt mean it isnt there.

He’s saying they’d like to apply quantum computing, but it’s not there yet. Things haven’t changed that much in the last three years in terms of commercial applications of quantum computing. It’s still very much in the research phase. I’d be amazed if any F1 teams have anything using a quantum processor.

[1player]

Machine learning algorithms are basically driving the car, with the intense pit wall->driver coaching that's going on the entire race, where the drivers' intelligence is basically erased, but just have to follow what the number crunching algos have determined to be most optimal. For example:

• "Switch to engine mode X"
• "You should break 10 meters later in turn 11"
• "Drive .25s slower so we can make our pit window in 15 laps"
• "We'll put you on softs [because we have calculated there is a 51% chance that it is an optimal tyre in these race conditions]"

If tomorrow pit wall would be forbidden from telling the drivers what to do, you'd see a VERY different type of racing event.

 

I get that Formula One has always been at the bleeding edge of technology, but we are at the point that drivers are just an extension of these machines, and will be increasingly so. I personally wish that personal talent, intelligence, quick thinking and luck, of course, would be a much greater factor than they are currently.

[ensign14]

We had Al in F1 in the 1960s.

 

[eibyyz]

"Lewis piiiifdjkhgjfkdhgkjdfhgjkdhgkjdfhgkjhdfjkghdkjghjkd", "please wait for reboot"

Lewis "guys speak to me, sounded like you want me to pit"

Vasseur "hold on lewis your engineer is rebooting, we will know what to do soon"

"Lewis our strategy at start is to do 16 laps on soft".

Lewis "what the hell man, we not at the start of the race"

"Lewis I have not yet sensed the starting procedure, it must mean the race has not started, keep your head down and calm"

Lewis "guys I am coming in, tyres have had it."

Vasseur "Lewis wait please, remember the mechanics are now also androids, and need your engineer to send them signal".

Lewis "guys I am at the pit, change the tyres quickly"

Vasseur "Lewis we talked about it, these guys are not humans anymore".

Lewis "oh man, DNF I am out of here, booked a flight back just in case, see you next week"

Sounds like HAL 9000!  "I can't do that, Lewis..."

[Analog]

He’s saying they’d like to apply quantum computing, but it’s not there yet. Things haven’t changed that much in the last three years in terms of commercial applications of quantum computing. It’s still very much in the research phase. I’d be amazed if any F1 teams have anything using a quantum processor.

I fear that when, if, a breakthrough comes, it will come in quantum leaps. AI is soon at a stage where they can program those bastards. But we still have some years before they can fit one into a ECU.