70 replies to this topic

[Heyli]

I say we are worse off because Liberty has settled in to a status quo where some parts of the sport are seemingly unimpeachable, despite glaring flaws.

Qualifying specifically? Traffic, blocking, track position fighting for slipstream, yellow/red flags, ultra-sensitive tyres, TV direction make for many unsatisfying and unfair moments. But we persist... because?

Specifically on the TV front, having 10, 15 or 20 cars setting laps at the same time and only watching one, or sometimes zero if we're outboard watching the finish line, is the exact opposite of what broadcasting is about. The excitement of live sport is being able to watch something unfold as it happens, not through timing graphics or replays.

The clearest example of this is Verstappen's unfinished lap at Saudi 2021. We saw all of it live, including the crash, and it made the moment so much more dramatic.

I also agree with others that single lap qualifying offers more of a challenge. Isn't this the purpose of sport, to test the drivers in as many ways as possible?

I think they should implement a solution for causing a yellow/red flag, but the rest for me are a part of the qualifying. They need to account for traffic, tyres, slipstream. I enjoy that variability.

 

I'm not sure how much more of a challenge single lap qualifying is? Dont you think the drivers go more all out, when they have that banker lap in to just take that bit more risk on a second run? 

[Sterzo]

Specifically on the TV front, having 10, 15 or 20 cars setting laps at the same time and only watching one, or sometimes zero if we're outboard watching the finish line, is the exact opposite of what broadcasting is about. The excitement of live sport is being able to watch something unfold as it happens, not through timing graphics or replays.

Disagree totally. TV is not sport, and sport is not TV.

 

The excitement of live sport is being able to watch something unfold as it happens, not watch some artificial botch-up that suits a TV show.

[MikeTekRacing]

Disagree totally. TV is not sport, and sport is not TV.

 

The excitement of live sport is being able to watch something unfold as it happens, not watch some artificial botch-up that suits a TV show.

especially in today's streaming world where you can watch the feed onboard from any driver you want to 100% focus on

[pdac]

Disagree totally. TV is not sport, and sport is not TV.

 

The excitement of live sport is being able to watch something unfold as it happens, not watch some artificial botch-up that suits a TV show.

 

The only problem is that when they had what I think is the best format - fixed time sessions where you can go out whenever you like, set as many times as you like and the fastest is the one that's counted - both TV audiences and those at the track complained because the "go out whenever you like" mean the teams just waited until the very end, waiting for some other team to rubber-in the track and so there was no action to watch. But this idea was pure.

[PayasYouRace]

When was the last time you could go out to set as many laps as you liked? Must be a very, very long time ago. In the gold one hour format (1996-2002) each driver was limited to 12 laps including ins and outs, meaning drivers had three or four runs over the hour. That 12 lap format applied to the tail and of the twin Friday/Saturday format prior to that, but I’m not sure when it’s started. In the mid-80s, drivers were given two sets of qualifying tyres per qualifying session, so they only had two runs each. So I reckon you’re going back over 40 years to the truly unlimited qualifying sessions, and that’s definitely before qualifying became a TV event.

[Deeq]

I disagree that the qualifying format doesn’t need changing. It’s not that it’s broken, just that it’s been solved—skip to the last two minutes of every session and that’s almost always all you need to see.

The cynic in me says that’s the point—much easier to fit this into a highlight package—but I still think we’d be better off swapping Q3 to a single-lap session so that we can see the last attempt of each driver in full and the final result is (mostly) in doubt throughout the session rather than just until the last two minutes.

I feel like a broken record saying this, but I’d love it to become a two-day affair over Friday/Saturday, with a knockout session on Friday splitting the grid into groups and then those groups running single-lap sessions competing only amongst themselves to set the grid. Would reduce the number of practice sessions (more unpredictability) without reducing track time, and give people a reason to watch on Fridays.

I Agree with making Q3 a 1 lap all or nothing session.. Problem though is the order of starting! Due to track evolution, The only fair way is to make it randomised.
All of them starting their 1 lap last seconds before end of session is a nonstarter, that will be the current system with 10min empty track..not seeing the pole lap.

Edited by Deeq, 15 October 2024 - 15:54.

[Collombin]

When was the last time you could go out to set as many laps as you liked?.........In the mid-80s, drivers were given two sets of qualifying tyres per qualifying session, so they only had two runs each. So I reckon you’re going back over 40 years to the truly unlimited qualifying sessions, and that’s definitely before qualifying became a TV event.

I think 1980 was the first year they tried to standardise and formalise the practice/qualifying structure, so my bet is on the tyre limit coming in then too.

Edited by Collombin, 15 October 2024 - 16:14.

[MikeTekRacing]

I Agree with making Q3 a 1 lap all or nothing session.. Problem though is the order of starting! Due to track evolution, The only fair way is to make it randomised.
All of them starting their 1 lap last seconds before end of session is a nonstarter, that will be the current system with 10min empty track..not seeing the pole lap.

the gaps are so close that we would be basically randomizing the top 10 of the grid constantly.

The random factor is bigger than the gap between cars

[Deeq]

the gaps are so close that we would be basically randomizing the top 10 of the grid constantly.
The random factor is bigger than the gap between cars

Very good point.. the track evolution factor will be decisive.
Could the impact of this minimised with tyres type? I.e Q tyres less sensitive to track evolution? That would be ideal me thinks.
Rain is force majeure..

[pdac]

When was the last time you could go out to set as many laps as you liked? Must be a very, very long time ago. In the gold one hour format (1996-2002) each driver was limited to 12 laps including ins and outs, meaning drivers had three or four runs over the hour. That 12 lap format applied to the tail and of the twin Friday/Saturday format prior to that, but I’m not sure when it’s started. In the mid-80s, drivers were given two sets of qualifying tyres per qualifying session, so they only had two runs each. So I reckon you’re going back over 40 years to the truly unlimited qualifying sessions, and that’s definitely before qualifying became a TV event.

 

Yes, I should not have stated that they had as many goes as they liked. I kind of meant that it wasn't limited to just 2 or 3 as each session is in the current format. Thank you for correcting.

[TomNokoe]

I'll reply to a few posts at once:

 

isn't the sport supposed to be as fair as possible? Single lap is anything but fair. 

we are watching VERY close grids, with cars sometimes P1-P15 under 1 second. Single lap will ruin that. Why do we want that?

I don't think it will. Track evolution is wildly exaggerated in F1 as a laptime factor. In 2024, from full qualifying sessions (not sprint qualifying) and excluding damp/wet sessions (Silverstone, Hungary, Spa) there have been a cumulative 147 drivers that have set lap times in Q3. 69 of these (47%) either went slower or improved by less than 0.150s compared to their Q2 time, and this is commonly with two runs in Q3 and thus even more supposed track evolution than in a hypothetical Q3 single lap session.

 

The lap time isn't in the track, it's in the tyres, outlap prep and driver maximising the car. If you dive deeper into that 47% it's often those 6th-10th who struggle to improve, because they've already reached the limit, compared to those in the top teams who aren't pushing 100% in Q1 and Q2, saving tyres and doing just enough to get through.

 

In my observations, ten single laps, one-by-one, has a completely negligible impact on track grip. It's hard to estimate these things but I'd say 0.1s at most tracks, 0.2s maximum at more sensitive tracks like Monaco, Baku, Singapore. Hardly life-changing and on a scale of "fairness" I'd say totally acceptable when you consider the trade off that traffic, blocking and yellow/red flag interruptions are now totally eliminated as variables, plus the benefits from a TV point of view in being able to watch every single lap in great detail and build up the tension to the final runners.

 

The only true downside that cannot be ignored is adverse weather, but this is a rarity, and confining the single laps to Q3 rather than the full grid limits the disruption in terms of result, at worst you start 10th. Also, it would only take 15-20 minutes to run, which is a very small window for big weather changes.

 

I'm not sure how much more of a challenge single lap qualifying is? Dont you think the drivers go more all out, when they have that banker lap in to just take that bit more risk on a second run? 

 

I have considered this and I agree it is a value judgement that will differ from fan to fan. Some will want to see the ultimate laptime, others will prefer the jeopardy and balancing act of only having one attempt. I think if Q1 and Q2 are run as normal, this gives the drivers who make it through to the top ten a chance to get their eye in and test the waters before the Q3 single lap attempt. They will already have a feel for the track and be able to push the limits, unlike the 2003-05 format where they went in completely cold. Best of both worlds.

 

Besides, how much lap time are we missing from the drivers being slightly conservative, a couple of tenths? No big deal.

 

I Agree with making Q3 a 1 lap all or nothing session.. Problem though is the order of starting! Due to track evolution, The only fair way is to make it randomised.
All of them starting their 1 lap last seconds before end of session is a nonstarter, that will be the current system with 10min empty track..not seeing the pole lap.

 

Order of starting would be the reverse of Q2, 10th-1st, meaning that those fastest previously have earned the benefit of any neglible track evolution. It adds a slight extra dimension and reward to Q2 as well, with drivers fighting for a later slot. Also, in theory it should mean the cars fighting for pole run close to eachother, further neutralising any track evolution influence. For example, if Norris is the penultimate runner (2nd in Q2) and Verstappen runs last (1st in Q2), the track conditions will be practically identical.

 

Disagree totally. TV is not sport, and sport is not TV.

 

The excitement of live sport is being able to watch something unfold as it happens, not watch some artificial botch-up that suits a TV show.

 

especially in today's streaming world where you can watch the feed onboard from any driver you want to 100% focus on

 

But we aren't actively watching it, we're just following graphics on a screen and a static camera at the final corner. I want to see the drivers drive the car. Braking, turn in, apex, traction.

 

Also, IMO, the beauty of live sport is knowing that me and millions of others are sitting at their TV screens at the same time. If I have Hamilton's onboard open on my computer but everyone else is watching the world feed, that sense of community is lost. It's about shared experience. Again I will reference Verstappen's Saudi 2021 lap, which is a staple in F1 culture not because he crashed, but because we all saw him crash. How many qualifying laps in recent times can you say are truly memorable, classic moments? Not many, for exactly this reason. Seeing is believing.

 

Finally, single-lap qualifying adds narrative to a session, a crucial element to storytelling and broadcasting. Driver X lays down the benchmark, can driver Y respond? Shades of Japan 2000. This is missing from the current format because everything happens at the same time.

 

I really feel strongly about this and would love to see it implemented, but I'm well aware I'm swimming against the tide!

Edited by TomNokoe, 15 October 2024 - 20:38.

[MikeTekRacing]

 

 

Finally, single-lap qualifying adds narrative to a session, a crucial element to storytelling and broadcasting. Driver X lays down the benchmark, can driver Y respond? Shades of Japan 2000. This is missing from the current format because everything happens at the same time.

Here is where I think you are ignoring/missing the point. I agree with everything else.

The gap in track conditions is most of the times BIGGER than the gap between cars. I am not even going on changing wether, but regular track build up.

 

It will rob us of exactly what you want - "can the driver y respond" of course he cannot, it started raining 

[TomNokoe]

Here is where I think you are ignoring/missing the point. I agree with everything else.
The gap in track conditions is most of the times BIGGER than the gap between cars. I am not even going on changing wether, but regular track build up.

Track grip on a dry day is influenced by three external factors: air temperature/density, track temperature and rubbering in.

If Norris and Verstappen go out within 2-3 minutes of eachother, the air and track temperature is unlikely to change. The only difference to the track is that the driver that left the pits first will have lapped thrice:

1. out lap - not going fast enough to lay down rubber, negligible difference to cleaning up the racing line of dust etc

2. hot lap - fast enough to contribute to track rubbering in and minor difference in cleaning up the racing line, but it's only one lap

3. in lap - once again not going fast enough and possibly off line as there's no incentive to keep tyres clean

I cannot stress enough how little of an effect this has on the track grip for the following driver, especially on a circuit that's already had many hours of practice across multiple formulae and the immediacy of the preceding 30 minutes across Q1 and Q2. I would measure it in thousandths. It's only when you have multiple drivers lapping consecutively that you have serious evolution and build up, but you soon reach diminishing returns.

10 drivers each running out-hot-in is nothing.

Edited by TomNokoe, 15 October 2024 - 21:42.

[MikeTekRacing]

but why just Max-Lando? Why not ensure that all top 10 drivers have access to rather equal conditions?

 

I am too busy today but will look throughout this year how many times the tracks changed significantly in Q3. It's not that rare as you make it seem

[Hellenic tifosi]

IMO the qualifying format is better now than in the past. The only downside is that we rarely get to see the pole lap.

So, why not run a shorter Q1,Q2,Q3, eliminating 14 divers in the process, and then run a single lap shootout for the top6, to determine pole position?

[pdac]

Why not do it the other way around the FASTEST 5 in Q1 are placed into the top 5 grid positions, then the rest go into Q2 and the fastest 5 there go into grid positions 6-10 and then the rest go into Q3 to decide the final places.

 

If people at home want to switch off their TV's or, at the track, people decide to go for a break after Q1, then so be it.

Edited by pdac, 16 October 2024 - 12:02.

[Clatter]

I think a lot of people make the mistake of attributing the excitement of qualifying to the format, when really it's the qualifying itself that is the exciting part. I would also be in favour of a super pole instead of Q3.

It surprises me that the current format has sustained for so long, as with much of modern F1 (e.g. Pirelli 14 seasons and counting). In the past it felt like F1 was always changing, but we've now settled into a very safe "product", which I think we're worse off for.

Although the basic format has been around a while there have been a few tweaks, and no doubt there will be more in the future. It's not as static as you may think.

[PayasYouRace]

For example, I quite liked the system trialled last year (?) where drivers had to run hards in Q1, mediums in Q2 and softs in Q3.

[7MGTEsup]

They could introduce a system that for example after a period of time during the qualifying session the slowest driver is eliminated and then the slowest driver continues to get eliminated.

 

That would put pressure on the drivers to put in good laps and i'm sure would be a huge success.

 

Didn't they try something like this and it lasted a couple of races before they changed it ?

 

Edit: I think that was a woosh moment from me, it's so hard to read tone on the internet.

Edited by 7MGTEsup, 17 October 2024 - 12:20.

[noikeee]

Didn't they try something like this and it lasted a couple of races before they changed it ?

It was ****ing awful. Even worse than single lap qualifying.

[AlexPrime]

I don't like it, I think qualy works well and I don't think that we always need to increase the pressure, becoming like the Roman audiences of old...