46 replies to this topic

[mirrorboy]

I know what you are thinking, “great, another unnecessary thread about changing stuff in F1… this 4-week break is taking too long”

Take a deep breath pal, this one might find some consensus.

 

So, let's get down to business:

 

It seems that Sprint races and Sprint Shootouts are here to stay, so let’s make them the best they can be. User JimmyClark pointed out in another thread that while the regular Qualifying isn’t broken, the Sprint Shootout could be improved with a single-lap attempt. I immediately thought it was a brilliant idea, and I thought many others would agree, that’s why I added the poll.

 

The core of the new Sprint Shootout would be:

• 1 single lap attempt per driver.
• The starting order is determined by the world championship standings (the leader goes first). This adds a bit of unfairness and unpredictability, which is never well-received in this forum, but let’s think it’s only for the Sprint race, plus it’s only track-evolution benefit, we’re not weighing down anyone's car or anything like that.

 

Benefits of this format: 

• It’s a distinct format from Qualifying. A Sprint Shootout deserves its own identity, something shorter, faster.
• We can get to see ALL drivers in TV during a push lap.
• It’s a true Sprint Shootout. Mistakes are punished.
• It adds excitement and can shake up the Sprint race grid (as I said, not ideal for some, but it's only a little bit of unfairness).
• It highlights true one-lap talent. Pressure is on!

 

 

So yeah, there it goes. What y'all think?

Edited by mirrorboy, 14 October 2024 - 13:53.

[JvsKVB77]

Yes, but championship leader goes last. 

[southernstars]

I like it. But then, the Top Ten Shootout at Bathurst is one of my favourite parts of that weekend.

[JimmyClark]

Yes, obviously I agree I really don't like how similar sprint qualifying (sorry, shootout) is to the Grand Prix qualifying. 

Edited by JimmyClark, 14 October 2024 - 12:11.

[Colbul1]

So how do you negate massive track evolution like Baku?  How do you negate something like the 5th car crashing and covering the racing line in debris and oil? Why should some people be penalised for track conditions in a wet/dry session?  There are too many variables, you may as well pick a number out of a hat and that be your starting position.

[Broekschaap]

Yes, obviously I agree I really don't like how similar sprint qualifying (sorry, shootout) is to the Grand Prix qualifying. 

Actually they are no longer shootouts, this changed with the fifth issue of the 2024 regulations. They are "sprint qualifying sessions".

[JimmyClark]

Actually they are no longer shootouts, this changed with the fifth issue of the 2024 regulations. They are "sprint qualifying sessions".

Kill me now.

[Broekschaap]

Kill me now.

My choice of weapon is little non important facts of the regulations in an attempt to bore you to death...

[PayasYouRace]

I don’t think the sprint race qualifying should take over twice as long as the race itself.

[F1 Mike]

I still can't stand the sprint and wish it would just vanish. That's my feelings on it and I just can't warm to them no matter how much Domenicali tells me I like it

[Goron3]

This was always my preferred option, because it also saves tyres.

 

But the best solution is to revamp the format. Make the Sprint a seperate championship, give points for Qualifying and then do a reverse grid Sprint race afterwards. Points for both, gaurentees action and it doesn't impact the main event.

[noikeee]

I'm generally not a fan of single lap qualifying, I think it tends to be boring, but I don't think it's a bad idea to give sprint qualy its own different flavour.

 

Maybe only the top 10 for Q3? 10th in Q2 goes first, then 9th in Q2 etc. To speed things up, you start your outlap as soon as the previous driver starts his hotlap.

[Ferrim]

To speed things up, you start your outlap as soon as the previous driver starts his hotlap.

This was the case under the 2003-05 single lap qualifying, as well.

[IrvTheSwerve]

I hate running a race twice, but I really hate running a qualifying session twice, pretty much exactly the same. It should definitely be a 1 lap qually.

[PayasYouRace]

I'm generally not a fan of single lap qualifying, I think it tends to be boring, but I don't think it's a bad idea to give sprint qualy its own different flavour.

Maybe only the top 10 for Q3? 10th in Q2 goes first, then 9th in Q2 etc. To speed things up, you start your outlap as soon as the previous driver starts his hotlap.

That used to happen back in 2003-2005. Now granted there were slightly larger gaps for ad breaks on TV, but it still took a whole hour to do 20 drivers. A top 10 shootout is still best part of half an hour, which is about as long as the sprint race itself.

[tyker]

 

I know what you are thinking, “great, another unnecessary thread about changing stuff in F1… this 4-week break is taking too long”

Take a deep breath pal, this one might find some consensus.

 

So, let's get down to business:

 

It seems that Sprint races and Sprint Shootouts are here to stay, so let’s make them the best they can be. User JimmyClark pointed out in another thread that while the regular Qualifying isn’t broken, the Sprint Shootout could be improved with a single-lap attempt. I immediately thought it was a brilliant idea, and I thought many others would agree, that’s why I added the poll.

 

The core of the new Sprint Shootout would be:

• 1 single lap attempt per driver.
• The starting order is determined by the world championship standings (the leader goes first). This adds a bit of unfairness and unpredictability, which is never well-received in this forum, but let’s think it’s only for the Sprint race, plus it’s only track-evolution benefit, we’re not weighing down anyone's car or anything like that.

 

Benefits of this format: 

• It’s a distinct format from Qualifying. A Sprint Shootout deserves its own identity, something shorter, faster.
• We can get to see ALL drivers in TV during a push lap.
• It’s a true Sprint Shootout. Mistakes are punished.
• It adds excitement and can shake up the Sprint race grid (as I said, not ideal for some, but it's only a little bit of unfairness).
• It highlights true one-lap talent. Pressure is on!

 

 

So yeah, there it goes. What y'all think?

 

I've got to agree because that exact format was my idea. 

[mirrorboy]

I don’t think the sprint race qualifying should take over twice as long as the race itself.

 

The current Sprint Shootout is actually longer than the Sprint race itself, with the Shootout lasting 40 minutes and the race around 30 minutes.

 

I don’t think the session length is an issue as long as on-track action is good, but I agree that we shouldn’t exceed the 45-minute mark for a Sprint Shootout.

 

One solution could be sending drivers out every 2 minutes, which would ensure the session wraps up in under 45 minutes. Plus, the first driver out would be the only one not to encounter a car on its in-lap (little compensation for going first). Also, there should be no problem in every driver having to let 1 car through while they go back to pits.

Edited by mirrorboy, 14 October 2024 - 14:46.

[tyker]

So how do you negate massive track evolution like Baku?  How do you negate something like the 5th car crashing and covering the racing line in debris and oil? Why should some people be penalised for track conditions in a wet/dry session?  There are too many variables, you may as well pick a number out of a hat and that be your starting position.

At least the drivers are having to earn the right to be on pole position unlike a reverse grid or as you bring up just picking the starting position out of a hat.

[tyker]

I don’t think the sprint race qualifying should take over twice as long as the race itself.

I see what you mean but it replaces 2 hours of practice with 30 minutes of qualifying then a 30 minute race, less is more?

[tyker]

I still can't stand the sprint and wish it would just vanish. That's my feelings on it and I just can't warm to them no matter how much Domenicali tells me I like it

It's frustrating because I believe most people don't like it, it feels like an attempt to brainwash.

[PayasYouRace]

I see what you mean but it replaces 2 hours of practice with 30 minutes of qualifying then a 30 minute race, less is more?

That’s replacing 0 hours of competitive running with an hour of competitive running. Thats a win for me.

[tyker]

This was always my preferred option, because it also saves tyres.

 

But the best solution is to revamp the format. Make the Sprint a seperate championship, give points for Qualifying and then do a reverse grid Sprint race afterwards. Points for both, gaurentees action and it doesn't impact the main event.

Good point about the tyres, I'm sure that it then gives them less tyres for actual qualifying.

[onemoresolo]

Yes, but championship leader goes last. 

 

Absolutely, else the jeopardy in terms of who is on pole is likely done after the first 6 or so drivers. It needs to build up as the session develops rather than waiting to see where the Saubers end up (with respect to Sauber, of course).

 

But otherwise, 100% in favour of single lap qualifying for the sprint. The current system isn't great for the reasons others have mentioned (the session is longer than the race, and is basically identical to proper qualifying).

[tyker]

That’s replacing 0 hours of competitive running with an hour of competitive running. Thats a win for me.

For me it shortens the time I see cars on the track for something I don't care about, MotoGP has sprint races but still has plenty of practice time, it's what you might call a build up to the weekend, building up the excitement, but no we have a sprint race which then might give you an idea of what to expect the day after.

[tyker]

Absolutely, else the jeopardy in terms of who is on pole is likely done after the first 6 or so drivers. It needs to build up as the session develops rather than waiting to see where the Saubers end up (with respect to Sauber, of course).

 

But otherwise, 100% in favour of single lap qualifying for the sprint. The current system isn't great for the reasons others have mentioned (the session is longer than the race, and is basically identical to proper qualifying).

I mentioned that in another thread which may prevent the reverse qualifying happening in the first place, by doing what you mention then you give even more advantage to faster cars, you're less likely to get any surprises so you're back to the sprint qualifying being more than likely a copy of the GP qualifying in terms of results.. 

[PayasYouRace]

For me it shortens the time I see cars on the track for something I don't care about, MotoGP has sprint races but still has plenty of practice time, it's what you might call a build up to the weekend, building up the excitement, but no we have a sprint race which then might give you an idea of what to expect the day after.

I tend to find those who pay that much attention to the practice sessions will have even more of an idea of what to expect the day after, yet it doesn’t bother them.

[mhno1f]

In principal single shot reverse order works well. But unless it's variable weather (wet->dry), then by the time you get into "Formula B" - everybody will turn off.  Finding out which Sauber is going to be last isn't exactly an exciting conclusion.

[pdac]

I voted 'other' - because my change would be to get rid of it and if it stays, I really don't care how it's organised (I won't bother with it anyway)

[onemoresolo]

I mentioned that in another thread which may prevent the reverse qualifying happening in the first place, by doing what you mention then you give even more advantage to faster cars, you're less likely to get any surprises so you're back to the sprint qualifying being more than likely a copy of the GP qualifying in terms of results.. 

 

Genuine question - in what way does going last advantage the faster cars? I would assume you mean the extra rubber being put down, but this would surely be negligible from each car having done one lap prior?

 

Negligible in terms of in regular qualifying, there would have been ~80 flying laps completed by the time the final runs happen (20x2, 15x2, 10x1 = 80) whereas here we're talking 15-19 for the top guys. I don't think it would impact particularly? Particularly say Verstappen having one more lap of rubber being put down vs Norris, vs the other way around.

 

I'm not sure how a follow that this system would give the same results as regular qualifying. Drivers having no build-up to their ultimate lap (ie no sighters in Q1, Q2 etc) and no opportunity to atone for an error or time deletion would surely lead to a greater variation in results to regular qualifying than doing the exact same format?

[PayasYouRace]

Genuine question - in what way does going last advantage the faster cars? I would assume you mean the extra rubber being put down, but this would surely be negligible from each car having done one lap prior?

Negligible in terms of in regular qualifying, there would have been ~80 flying laps completed by the time the final runs happen (20x2, 15x2, 10x1 = 80) whereas here we're talking 15-19 for the top guys. I don't think it would impact particularly? Particularly say Verstappen having one more lap of rubber being put down vs Norris, vs the other way around.

I'm not sure how a follow that this system would give the same results as regular qualifying. Drivers having no build-up to their ultimate lap (ie no sighters in Q1, Q2 etc) and no opportunity to atone for an error or time deletion would surely lead to a greater variation in results to regular qualifying than doing the exact same format?

With the fine margins of a close field is it noticeable. Happened more than a couple of times in 2003-2005. For example, in 2005 when Kimi went early because of a retirement in the previous race, then Montoya would be on pole.

[LolaB0860]

Absolutely, else the jeopardy in terms of who is on pole is likely done after the first 6 or so drivers. It needs to build up as the session develops rather than waiting to see where the Saubers end up (with respect to Sauber, of course).

 

But otherwise, 100% in favour of single lap qualifying for the sprint. The current system isn't great for the reasons others have mentioned (the session is longer than the race, and is basically identical to proper qualifying).

You could make a compromise solution and have the the championship leader go 11th. So 20th to 11th in championship order would qualify first, then after that 1st to 10th. That way, we wouldn't have to wait until Saubers. And also in theory you couldn't manipulate the system the same way

 

This already sort of happens in IBSF sliding competitions, the championship leader's first heat run is placed mid-pack in order to prevent them running always in either the crappiest or best of conditions.

Edited by LolaB0860, 15 October 2024 - 14:26.

[Sterzo]

Even if I liked the idea of manipulating formats to create excitement, the opening post's proposal doesn't. It proposes to send out the championship leader first, i.e. the most likely pole setter. Whereas the current format does build excitement towards the end, as times tumble and the real contenders battle it out.

[MattK9]

Yes.

Champ leaders goes first to mix up the grid.

I would also like to see the time gap between quali and the race be as short as possible. Like quali and race all happens within an hour.

[MikeTekRacing]

Then just randomize the grid. Why pretend something else?

[mirrorboy]

It's not about randomizing the grid to put up an artificial show.

 

I mean... we're not putting ballast on someone's car or stuff like that. They all have their shot, just someone needs to go first, and I thought that sending the Champ leader first would add a little spicy to the Sprint Shootout.

 

And of course, this is only for these 6 shootouts... we'll still have our 25 immaculate Qualyfing sessions for the proper race.

[Peat]

Remove the Sprint race then there's no need to worry about sprint qualifying formats.

[Ruusperi]

Remove the Sprint race then there's no need to worry about sprint qualifying formats.

The only right answer.

[AlexPrime]

OK, I like it 

[Enzoluis]

Do Q1 as usual, take out the last 10. The other 10 starting in an established order start to perform the one lap clasification. The first car does the outlap and starts the flying lap, the second car starts his outlap when the first crosses the pit lane exit. After the fluying lap the first car should entry to the pits before the second car starts his flyng lap. Then you have 15 minutes plus 5 of break for Q1 and the first outlap plus 10 flying laps, plus 10  of outlap minus flying lap. That should be less than an hour.

[Gravelngrass]

No, you don’t need two qualys. Go back to intelligent parc ferme rules and things will get better in both races.

[DeKnyff]

I have a better option for sprints: get rid of them.

[cjm321190]

As some have mentioned here for Qualifying.

Main race same as now. Q1/Q2/Q3

Sprint one shot Qualifying.

Just to mix it up a bit.

[Wuzak]

I would get rid of Sprint qualifying altogether.

 

You could randomly draw the grid for the Sprint.

 

Alternatively, change the Sprint completely.

 

Rather than the Sprint being a race, make it a time trial.

 

Draw drivers into 4 groups.

 

The time trial would be for X number of laps, the fastest two go to the semi finals - one in each.

 

The cars would start from p1 in equal intervals (10s, for instance).

 

Same for the 2 semi finals, with 2 from each going to the final race.

 

No radio contact, except for emergencies, between driver and the pits during the time trial, so that a driver can't be coached to slow down of he has enough margin.

[Wes350]

Get rid of sprint races.

If you can’t, then there is no sense in trying to reinvent the wheel.

Just do one Q session for everybody of 15 minutes. At the end of 15 minutes that is the grid starting order. The chaos of a single short quali session should provide plenty of surprises.

I also think that they should all be driving f2 cars with team livery, and up-tuned engines.

Equal machinery, a single Q session; If you are trying to make a circus out of things, you might as well do it right.

[TauriJ]

So how do you negate massive track evolution like Baku?  How do you negate something like the 5th car crashing and covering the racing line in debris and oil? Why should some people be penalised for track conditions in a wet/dry session?  There are too many variables, you may as well pick a number out of a hat and that be your starting position.

Mixed grids only add flavour to F1

[pdac]

Mixed grids only add flavour to F1

 

Mixed grids adds flavour to F1 as an entertainment show. It detracts from F1 as a racing competition.

 

So it really comes down to whether people want to see entertainment or sporting (or, perhaps, engineering) achievement,

Edited by pdac, 18 October 2024 - 16:19.

[Grippy]

As sprints are here to stay I'd get rid of sprint qualifying and have the grid in WDC order, that way the generally fastest driver is on pole but there might still be interest as some drivers/cars do better on some circuits than others.

Use the time for extra practice for the main event.