28 replies to this topic

[Andreas93]

Recently McLaren have overwhelmed Red Bull to become the benchmark of the grid but looking at the overall picture of 2024, who do you think had the best car?

 

I haven't bothered to look up things in great detail, but the pecking order was like this for me I think. 

First four races: Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren, Merc. Red Bull dominant like in 2023.

In China McLaren jumped Ferrari but were still quite a long way off Red Bull. Merc fourth best still.

Miami-Austria: McLaren and Red Bull were evenly matched in Miami, Imola, Canada, Spain. Red Bull quicker in Austria, McLaren in Monaco. Ferrari was the surprise top team of Monaco and Merc surprisingly competitive in Canada, at least in the dry. 

Silverstone-currently: McLaren the best overall, dominant at Hungary, Holland and Singapore, competitive everywhere else. Red Bull only fourth best in Italy, third best in Silverstone and Baku, second best in Hungary, Zandvoort and Singapore, only the quickest in Belgium but neutralized by the grid penalty. Merc probably the quickest in Silverstone and competitive in Belgium, Ferrari the best in Baku and possibly in Italy (race trim at least), otherwise these two were a bit off the top two.

 

So overall, I'd say it's still pretty even over the course of the season between Red Bull and McLaren, but if things stay as they are by the end McLaren should have a clear edge.

Edited by Andreas93, 14 October 2024 - 18:47.

[Otaku]

RB. The only reason they are behind in the WCC is because of PER.

[George Costanza]

First half RB. Second half McLaren.

[Andreas93]

RB. The only reason they are behind in the WCC is because of PER.

Well, people have been saying for a while that he will cost them a WCC in the future, and here we are.

[Mc_Silver]

Red Bull was the dominant car in the first half of the season. They have lost their dominance from the second half of the season and packing order was changing among four different teams depending on the circuit layout and weather conditions. McLaren has had the advantage of being the most consistent team. They have always been there or thereabouts from Miami GP onwards.

Edited by Mc_Silver, 15 October 2024 - 07:37.

[jonklug]

Red Bull was the dominant car up until Miami. McLaren have been better since. Quite simple to do the math and answer the question. 

[PayasYouRace]

On balance it’s been Red Bull. From fully dominant in the early races to still being in contention for wins and podiums for the remainder so far.

In the early season McLaren weren’t as strong as Red Bull have been throughout, and since Miami they haven’t been as dominant as Red Bull were on a consistent basis. But I think they could tip the balance in the remaining races.

If Red Bull had a lineup as strong as McLaren, they’d still be leading the WCC.

[Goron3]

Red Bull was the dominant car in the first half of the season. They have lost their dominance from the second half of the season and packing order was changing among four different teams depending on the circuit layout and weather conditions. McLaren has had the advantage of being the most consistent team. They have always been there or thereabouts from Miami GP onwards.

I think the RBR was dominant for the first quarter of the season, not half. I mean since late May / June the McLaren has been the better car overall and has dominated more races than the others.

[Raest]

McLaren.

They should be leading both championships with a bit more luck and quite a bit more competence. 

Edited by Raest, 15 October 2024 - 09:18.

[Anderis]

I don't think we should put too much emphasis on how dominant Red Bull was in the early races. Yes, the gap to the next big car was often big but there's only so many points you can gain over 4 races (the 5th one was a mechanical DNF for Verstappen, so hardly what constitutes a better car when McLaren had 100% reliability so far).

 

If Verstappen was driving the McLaren and Norris the Red Bull, I think there's a good chance that Verstappen would still be leading the WDC at this point. I don't think any other driver takes 3 race wins between Imola and Spain in that Red Bull.

[B38]

McLaren already had the best car in the second half of last season, but Norris performed poorly, it was rookie Piastri who had to do the main fighting to VER. And that VER won in the end was not because Red Bull had a the better car, but was still a very good car with probably the best driver of the grid vs a better car driven by a rookie.

This season Norris finaly has stepped up his game, sure, he still makes mistakes, has poor race starts, he isn't the best defender or overtaker but at least his race pace is now good enough and on average above that of his still inexperienced teammate. And now he has by far the best car on the grid, he will win race after race aslong he doesn't make mistakes and finish in front of his teammate.

 

However swap McLaren driver pairing with the drivers of RedBull, Mercedes or Ferrari and McLaren would be leading in both the WCC and WDC.

[messy]

This is a cop-out answer really but I think it's impossible to tell. How much of Red Bull's ground effect superiority has been the car being better, how much of it has been Max being better and how do those two things balance out? Open question really, I don't know the answer.

But I wouldn't be shocked if the correct answer was that McLaren had been the best car for most of 2024, and Max has been the one making the difference. They've certainly developed it into the best package now, they're leading the WCC and Lando making inroads in the WDC. I'd certainly take the McLaren right now.

[Ali623]

Since Miami, the McLaren has certainly been the best balanced car/easiest to get performance out of. Max and Red Bull (operationally) have been the better package which has accounted for a lot of the results in their favour between Imola-summer break period. During that period, I’d say the cars were similarly paced, but the Red Bull was way more sensitive. Basically, most drivers would probably be more in a Perez-situation with it.

The McLaren is basically dominant at high downforce tracks like Hungary/Zaandvoort/Singapore though.

[TheFish]

It’s close but I’d say McLaren, just. When RB had the best car it was the best car by miles. Now McLaren has the best car and has for a while but it’s close enough that any small mistakes will cost them wins. They’ve now had the best car for longer though, so them, just.

Max is a much better driver than Lando, hence the huge points gap.

[Andreas93]

It’s close but I’d say McLaren, just. When RB had the best car it was the best car by miles. Now McLaren has the best car and has for a while but it’s close enough that any small mistakes will cost them wins. They’ve now had the best car for longer though, so them, just.

Max is a much better driver than Lando, hence the huge points gap.

Interesting actually that most people who commented here bring up Max being a much better driver than Lando and I would agree that he maximized his opportunities better overall, though he also made his fair share of errors this year already.

When I think about it I think the main reason for this is actually not Max, or even Lando but Perez, since Perez is struggling so much he inevitable makes Max look very very good, almost like a demigod, the gift of an underperforming teammate I guess

[Nathan]

I think McLaren.  They are faster now, more consistent, and can get both drivers performing well.

[Cliff]

McLaren since Miami, switch drivers and the same one would be leading the WDC.

[Marklar]

McLaren, and it's honestly not even close any longer. The longer period of having a better car was for a long time equalized by Red Bull being utterly dominant in the races they were better and McLaren was only third quickest at the time (all early in the season), but now McLaren had these kind of races too while Red Bull is in those races 3rd or 4th quickest at times.

[Andreas93]

McLaren, and it's honestly not even close any longer. The longer period of having a better car was for a long time equalized by Red Bull being utterly dominant in the races they were better and McLaren was only third quickest at the time (all early in the season), but now McLaren had these kind of races too while Red Bull is in those races 3rd or 4th quickest at times.

Interesting thoughts. At which events were McLaren better in your view?

[TomNokoe]

This is by no means a perfect method, and some weekends (Canada, Silverstone, Spa) are really hard to call, but:

Spoiler

Bah: RB 1, McL 4
Sau: RB 1, McL 3
Aus: RB 2, McL 3
Jap: RB 1, McL 2
Chn: RB 1, McL 2
Mia: RB 2, McL 1
Imo: RB 2, McL 1
Mon: RB 3, McL 2
Can: RB 3, McL 2
Esp: RB 2, McL 1
Aus: RB 1, McL 2
Gbr: RB 3, McL 2
Hun: RB 2, McL 1
Bel: RB 1, McL 2
Ned: RB 2, McL 1
Ita: RB 4, McL 1
Bak: RB 4, McL 2
Sgp: RB 3, McL 1

Avg: RB 2.11, McL 1.83

A few tweaks and it could swing the other way, but I have marginal McLaren.

Edited by TomNokoe, 15 October 2024 - 21:16.

[flyboym3]

Redbull but season is not over yet still 6 races to go, if it carries on like this then I'd say McLaren.

I think Perez is clouding peoples judgement to date. If redbull had a driver other than Perez, Stroll or Sargeant they'd still be winning the constructors rather than having just let go of it.

Perez has been so bad I think you need 2 hands to count how many times he cannot get out of Q1.

[P123]

Red Bull was solidly the best the first five races and has been competitive at many more.  Should have won Austria too.  McLaren have had a better car than Red Bull over a greater number of races, but maybe not quite to the extent that Red Bull enjoyed early season, with Ferrari and Merc sticking their noses in from time to time too.  They have blown a few races through strategy, so Red Bull remains the better team, whereas McLaren maybe sneaks it as the better car so far.  

[MikeTekRacing]

Red Bull was solidly the best the first five races and has been competitive at many more.  Should have won Austria too.  McLaren have had a better car than Red Bull over a greater number of races, but maybe not quite to the extent that Red Bull enjoyed early season, with Ferrari and Merc sticking their noses in from time to time too.  They have blown a few races through strategy, so Red Bull remains the better team, whereas McLaren maybe sneaks it as the better car so far.  

Do you consider Australia as a track where Red Bull was the stronger car? Even if Max did not finish?

[GhostR]

Recently McLaren have overwhelmed Red Bull to become the benchmark of the grid but looking at the overall picture of 2024, who do you think had the best car?

 

I haven't bothered to look up things in great detail, but the pecking order was like this for me I think. 

First four races: Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren, Merc. Red Bull dominant like in 2023.

In China McLaren jumped Ferrari but were still quite a long way off Red Bull. Merc fourth best still.

Miami-Austria: McLaren and Red Bull were evenly matched in Miami, Imola, Canada, Spain. Red Bull quicker in Austria, McLaren in Monaco. Ferrari was the surprise top team of Monaco and Merc surprisingly competitive in Canada, at least in the dry. 

Silverstone-currently: McLaren the best overall, dominant at Hungary, Holland and Singapore, competitive everywhere else. Red Bull only fourth best in Italy, third best in Silverstone and Baku, second best in Hungary, Zandvoort and Singapore, only the quickest in Belgium but neutralized by the grid penalty. Merc probably the quickest in Silverstone and competitive in Belgium, Ferrari the best in Baku and possibly in Italy (race trim at least), otherwise these two were a bit off the top two.

 

So overall, I'd say it's still pretty even over the course of the season between Red Bull and McLaren, but if things stay as they are by the end McLaren should have a clear edge.

 

Looking at cars only, I'd say at this point that McLaren just edges it for me.

 

Fold in drivers and Verstappen's brilliance has minimised the damage for the WDC. Perez' travails have maximised the damage for the WCC. I think Verstappen brilliance still outweighs Perez struggles when it comes to assessing the overall package, and that's just barely enough to life Red Bull back ahead of McLaren in terms of season average. Will be an interesting weekend ahead to see if Red Bull really have got on top of the problems they've had with the car. If they have, then they'll retain the WDC and the WCC becomes a real fight.

[f1kent83]

Mclaren has been quicker but I don't think Verstappen has been brilliant, his been the best of the grid but the points difference is alot down to Norris under performing in the fastest car. Problem is Max fans make out the Redbull is constantly a poor car but it still consistently fights Mercedes and Ferrari and you would put a combo of Max/Redbull to beat any driver from them two teams. When the season is done Norris might not admit it but he knows he would have lost the championship himself.

[jacdaniel]

Red Bull were dominant for 5 races and had a DNF. McLaren faster ever since.

If Max was driving a McLaren the championship would be over already.

Max maximised his results and then some. Lando has failed to consistently perform in a great car.

[PayasYouRace]

Wouldn’t Max have still suffered with the McLaren strategy errors and such that have cost Lando most points this year? Lando hasn’t really lost that much through his own mistakes.

[F1Frog]

I will do an analysis of this. As a starting point, I will assume Norris would have finished in Verstappen’s positions in the Red Bull, and vice versa, so we start with Norris 52 points ahead of Verstappen.

Bahrain - no change.
Saudi Arabia - Norris didn’t have a good race, but I don’t know think it’s fair to say Verstappen would definitely finish ahead of Piastri as he has off days too so I will say no change again.
Australia, Japan, China, Miami - no change.

Imola - this is the toughest to know which was the better car, as Verstappen seemed to really drag a lap out in qualifying, but Norris looked after his tyres better in the race. I think I would give this one to Verstappen so it’s Verstappen +7, Norris -7. But I am unsure about this.

Monaco - neither driver maximised the points, but I will leave it as it is.

Canada - Norris was unlucky just like Verstappen in Miami. I think Norris wins this one in the Red Bull thanks to the safety car.

Spain - unlike at Imola, this time I think Verstappen definitely wins in the McLaren due to his superior first few laps, so it is another Verstappen +7, Norris -7.

Austria - probably Verstappen catches Norris then doesn’t drive into him and passes him for victory so it is Verstappen +25, Norris+8. Demonstrating how Verstappen benefitted from the inadequacy of the F1 penalty system in Austria.

Britain - I don’t think Verstappen would have overruled the strategy call of McLaren so no change.

Hungary - There is no way Verstappen would allow Piastri to win so Verstappen +7. But also Verstappen made mistakes so I think Norris finishes third and it is Norris +5.

Belgium - I think Verstappen would be bolder on lap one and finish second to Hamilton, so Norris is then fifth. Verstappen +8, Norris -2.

Zandvoort - no change.

Monza - I think Verstappen defends better on lap one but still loses to Leclerc so Verstappen +3.

Baku - Like the opposite of Jeddah, I think Norris would have finished better than Verstappen did in those circumstances, and Verstappen worse than Norris, but I will say no change for the sake of consistency.

Singapore - no change.

So in total I have Verstappen + 57 and Norris -3. So Verstappen leads the title by 8 points in the McLaren. But that can be turned on its head easily by the crash in Austria. Essentially, I think the Red Bull was the best car so far in 2024 overall but probably not by Abu Dhabi.

[RedRabbit]

I will do an analysis of this. As a starting point, I will assume Norris would have finished in Verstappen’s positions in the Red Bull, and vice versa, so we start with Norris 52 points ahead of Verstappen.

Bahrain - no change.
Saudi Arabia - Norris didn’t have a good race, but I don’t know think it’s fair to say Verstappen would definitely finish ahead of Piastri as he has off days too so I will say no change again.
Australia, Japan, China, Miami - no change.

Imola - this is the toughest to know which was the better car, as Verstappen seemed to really drag a lap out in qualifying, but Norris looked after his tyres better in the race. I think I would give this one to Verstappen so it’s Verstappen +7, Norris -7. But I am unsure about this.

Monaco - neither driver maximised the points, but I will leave it as it is.

Canada - Norris was unlucky just like Verstappen in Miami. I think Norris wins this one in the Red Bull thanks to the safety car.

Spain - unlike at Imola, this time I think Verstappen definitely wins in the McLaren due to his superior first few laps, so it is another Verstappen +7, Norris -7.

Austria - probably Verstappen catches Norris then doesn’t drive into him and passes him for victory so it is Verstappen +25, Norris+8. Demonstrating how Verstappen benefitted from the inadequacy of the F1 penalty system in Austria.

Britain - I don’t think Verstappen would have overruled the strategy call of McLaren so no change.

Hungary - There is no way Verstappen would allow Piastri to win so Verstappen +7. But also Verstappen made mistakes so I think Norris finishes third and it is Norris +5.

Belgium - I think Verstappen would be bolder on lap one and finish second to Hamilton, so Norris is then fifth. Verstappen +8, Norris -2.

Zandvoort - no change.

Monza - I think Verstappen defends better on lap one but still loses to Leclerc so Verstappen +3.

Baku - Like the opposite of Jeddah, I think Norris would have finished better than Verstappen did in those circumstances, and Verstappen worse than Norris, but I will say no change for the sake of consistency.

Singapore - no change.

So in total I have Verstappen + 57 and Norris -3. So Verstappen leads the title by 8 points in the McLaren. But that can be turned on its head easily by the crash in Austria. Essentially, I think the Red Bull was the best car so far in 2024 overall but probably not by Abu Dhabi.

The flaw here is that you are simply swapping Max and Lando, without considering Piastri.

I think Piastri is really good, but in the same car, I would bet Verstappen beats him in the same way he beats every teammate. He rarely, very rarely makes mistakes or has off weekends.

It would be more accurate to assign the lead McLaren results to Verstappen for each race.