34 replies to this topic

[JL14]

Blame it on the long break, but this is something that, while understandable, I've always found a bit weird as well:

 

The team whose car and driver wins the Grand Prix gets handed the Constructor's Trophy during the podium ceremony. Which seems quite logical.

However, at the end of the year it's the driver with the most points that wins the WDC and the team with the most points the WCC. So why isn't the Grand Prix Constructor's Trophy handed to the team that does the best job (for the WCC) and scores the most points in the Grand Prix with their cars as well? (Of course it's also the driver with the most points who receives the 1st place Grand Prix trophy ) 

 

Quite often this will mean it's still the team that wins the Grand Prix, because they can only lose it if their other driver finishes lower than 6th. 

 

Scenario's for the team whose driver and car wins the GP to win the Constructor's Trophy are:

- Driver 1 wins, Driver 2 finishes no worse than 6th (minimum of 33 points).

- Driver 1 wins, Driver 2 finishes no worse than 7th (minimum of 31 points), unless another team finishes 2nd & 3rd (33 points)

- Driver 1 wins, Driver 2 finishes no worse than 8th (minimum of 29 points), unless another team finishes 2nd & 3rd/4th (33/30 points)

- Driver 1 wins, Driver 2 finishes no worse than 10th (minimum of 26 points), unless another team finishes 2nd & 3rd/4th/5th (33/30/28 points) or 3rd & 4th (27 points)

- Driver 1 wins, Driver 2 doesn't matter, unless another tteam finishes 2nd & 3rd/4th/5th/6th (33/30/28/26 points) or 3rd & 4th (27 points)

 

So a different team than the one whose driver and car wins the GP will win the Constructor's Trophy when:

- Their drivers finish 2nd & 3rd, and the second driver of the GP winning team finishes 7th or lower.

- Their drivers finish 2nd & 4th, and the second driver of the GP winning team finishes 8th or lower.

- Their drivers finish 2nd & 5th, and the second drier of the GP winning team finishes 9th or lower.

- Their drivers finish 2nd & 6th, and the second driver of the GP winning team finishes 11th or lower.

- Their drivers finish 3rd & 4th, and the second driver of the GP winning team finishes 10th or lower.

Edited by JL14, 14 October 2024 - 21:11.

[PayasYouRace]

Up next, “Which driver should win the Driver’s Trophy?”

 

• The one who won the race.
• The one who lead the most laps.
• The one whose dad took him to the most go kart races as a child.

 

These stupid polls are doing my head in.

[pdac]

So each team accrues WCC points as the accumulation of the finish positions of each of the cars that team fields. It is, therefore, possible for the team that fields the winning car to accrue less WCC points than another team in the same race. E.g.:

 

Team A:

- car 1 finishes first

- car 2 DNF

(WCC points 25)

 

Team B:

- car 1 finishes second

- car 2 finishes third

(WCC points 18+15 = 33)

 

Give the trophy to team B.

[PayasYouRace]

Actually, if a team finishes second and third, they should get a 2nd place and a 3rd place trophy.

[pdac]

Up next, “Which driver should win the Driver’s Trophy?”

 

• The one who won the race.
• The one who lead the most laps.
• The one whose dad took him to the most go kart races as a child.

 

These stupid polls are doing my head in.

 

It's an inconsistency. At the end of a race, the driver trophy is awarded to the driver that scored the most WDC points and the constructors trophy is awarded to the team who fielded the winning car, not the one that scored the most WCC points. But at the end of the season, the drivers champion is the driver with the most WDC points, but the constructors champion is the one that has the most WCC points (not the one whose driver has the most WDC points)

[pacificquay]

The trophy is for the winning constructor, it’s simple

[pdac]

The trophy is for the winning constructor, it’s simple

 

Yes, but how do you determine who is the winning constructor? That's the conundrum being posed here.

[pacificquay]

The one that wins the race

[Myrvold]

The one that wins the race

 

And the winning constructor in the championship, isn't necessarily the same as the WDC, even though, with the same logic, that should be the winning constructor? Or something?

 

I can see where OP is coming from though.

[PayasYouRace]

It's an inconsistency. At the end of a race, the driver trophy is awarded to the driver that scored the most WDC points and the constructors trophy is awarded to the team who fielded the winning car, not the one that scored the most WCC points. But at the end of the season, the drivers champion is the driver with the most WDC points, but the constructors champion is the one that has the most WCC points (not the one whose driver has the most WDC points)

It’s not an inconsistency. The trophy is awarded to the winner. A child could understand it.

 

Championship points are used to calculate the standings. I swear this forum is suffering from collective brain rot due to this extra four week gap.

[milestone 11]

I've been missing from here these last few weeks, the place seems,

To have gone slightly mad

Some are one card short of a full deck
I know I'm not quite the full shilling

But you lot are one wave short of a shipwreck
Far from the  usual top billing

[milestone 11]

Yes, but how do you determine who is the winning constructor? That's the conundrum being posed here.

There's only one winner, every bugger else are losers!

[ensign14]

I've long said that the constructors' title should be based on where the SECOND car finishes...

[JL14]

It’s not an inconsistency. The trophy is awarded to the winner. A child could understand it.

 

Championship points are used to calculate the standings. I swear this forum is suffering from collective brain rot due to this extra four week gap.

 

But that's the thing that's arguable.

WDC and Driver's Trophy is quite obviously about a single car. But WCC and Constructor's Trophy is about the (whole) team.

 

If for example on race 1 Team A finishes 1st and 14th, and Team B finishes 2nd and 3rd, the leading constructor in the WCC is Team B. So that constructor comes out of the weekend as the clear winner even though they didn't win the race. No one is argueing that Team A should then be leading the WCC standings because they won the race; in which case they should just be counting the points of the best performing car of the weekend for WCC points, as that is what currently determines who is the best performing (winning) constructor in a GP.

Edited by JL14, 15 October 2024 - 06:44.

[PayasYouRace]

But that's the thing that's arguable.
If for example on race 1 Team A finishes 1st and 14th, and Team B finishes 2nd and 3rd, the leader of the WCC standings is Team B. So that constructor comes out of the weekend as the clear winner even though they didn't win the race. No one is argueing that Team A should then be leading the WCC standings because they won the race.
Otherwise they should actually just count the points of the best performing car of the weekend for WCC points, as that is what currently determines who is the best performing (winning) constructor in a GP.

.

The trophy is for winning, not for scoring the most points. Why don’t the constructors also get second and third place trophies? That’s the better question.

And up until 1979, only the best placed car from each constructor would score points.

[DeKnyff]

I've long said that the constructors' title should be based on where the SECOND car finishes...

 

Yet, I miss the times when only the first car scored.

[Sparky68]

There's only one winner, every bugger else are losers!

No medal for participating? 

[NCB619]

.

The trophy is for winning, not for scoring the most points. Why don’t the constructors also get second and third place trophies? That’s the better question.

And up until 1979, only the best placed car from each constructor would score points.

Yep, this is the exact point. It's easy for everyone else to forget that the winning constructor trophy exists, probably because it was awarded as such before the Constructors Championship existed.

[ensign14]

And up until 1979, only the best placed car from each constructor would score points.

Which of course led to the idiotic outcome in 1972 that Lotus - which could only get one car into the points at any given race - was awarded a title ahead of a team which managed to get two cars to the podium, three times at the same race.

[PayasYouRace]

Which of course led to the idiotic outcome in 1972 that Lotus - which could only get one car into the points at any given race - was awarded a title ahead of a team which managed to get two cars to the podium, three times at the same race.

Would it have been less idiotic if Lotus only ran the one car?

Thing is, the OP is asking if the race winner shouldn’t get the trophy if another constructor fills more points positions. Now that is idiotic.

[absinthedude]

Ugh I clicked the wrong option!

[Beri]

Actually, if a team finishes second and third, they should get a 2nd place and a 3rd place trophy.

 

Youre really fed up with these polls, arent you? 

[PayasYouRace]

Youre really fed up with these polls, arent you?

Yes, but it is a valid question I think. Why do the top three drivers get trophies, but only the winning constructor?

[ensign14]

Would it have been less idiotic if Lotus only ran the one car?

No - it would still have been idiotic. Because a 2 car team is a harder undertaking than a 1 car team and if you get 2 cars into the points you've done a better team job than getting 1 car into the points.

 

Hence the constructors' points should be based on where the second car finishes.  A win and a retirement is nowhere near as good a TEAM job as a fifth and a sixth.

[Stoffel]

Actually, if a team finishes second and third, they should get a 2nd place and a 3rd place trophy.

 

Don't be so ridiculous, that makes way too much sense.

[PayasYouRace]

No - it would still have been idiotic. Because a 2 car team is a harder undertaking than a 1 car team and if you get 2 cars into the points you've done a better team job than getting 1 car into the points.

Hence the constructors' points should be based on where the second car finishes. A win and a retirement is nowhere near as good a TEAM job as a fifth and a sixth.

But a two car team is advantages in data gathering and simply having two cars increases your chances to win. The benefits of a second car easily outweigh the initial difficult outlay of building and running it. So if you win with your one car, that’s a better job that getting two points finishes with your two cars.

Though I do like your system of determining the constructors championship. But if you have a one car team and win, then that’s worthy of the most points.

[Beri]

Yes, but it is a valid question I think. Why do the top three drivers get trophies, but only the winning constructor?

 

I have mistaken it for sarcasm. But since its a genuine question, then Id say its an idea that makes me think: "Thats a great idea.. Why hasnt this been done before?"

[F1 Mike]

There should only be one long break during the season between races

[ensign14]

But a two car team is advantages in data gathering and simply having two cars increases your chances to win. The benefits of a second car easily outweigh the initial difficult outlay of building and running it.

In which case, why were there so many one car teams when it was cheaper...

[PayasYouRace]

In which case, why were there so many one car teams when it was cheaper...

The initial outlay is bigger, but it’s telling that all the successful teams had at least two cars.

[F1Frog]

The team with the race winner, to celebrate the Grand Prix as an individual event and not just as part of the championship.

[onemoresolo]

It's an inconsistency. At the end of a race, the driver trophy is awarded to the driver that scored the most WDC points and the constructors trophy is awarded to the team who fielded the winning car, not the one that scored the most WCC points. But at the end of the season, the drivers champion is the driver with the most WDC points, but the constructors champion is the one that has the most WCC points (not the one whose driver has the most WDC points)

 

It's only an inconsistency if you think the driver gets the trophy for scoring the most points, rather than because they won the race, which is plainly nonsense. The trophy and the points are both consequences of the same thing - the driver winning the race.

[DeKnyff]

In which case, why were there so many one car teams when it was cheaper...

 

Were there? The only successful single car team I remember since 1970 is Wolf, and they had only one year of success (1977). Even in the 1960s, most competitive teams had two (or more) cars. Maybe there could have been some exceptions (Eagle or Honda?), but definitively not the norm. Another thing, of course, were the privateers and semi-professional teams, which could only afford one car.

 

I don't think running one single car was ever perceived as an advantage.

[Nathan]

I'll toss Hesketh in there.  But again, one maybe two seasons of success, and only with a guy that became a world champion. 

[FirstnameLastname]

The team that leads the most laps - excluding the last lap.

Simple.