770 replies to this topic

[FirstnameLastname]

https://www.motorspo...rpnuFSV-.WA7V6T

the suspicions that have erupted are that a team has designed its car in such a way that it was possible to adjust the clearance of the front bib – also known as a T-tray – through a change of settings inside the cockpit.

This alteration in theory could be easily done by a mechanic during the regular car assessment work that is undertaken between qualifying and the race, and would be undetected to outside observers.

‘Growing suspiciouns’ that ‘One unidentified team’ apparently suspected of benefitting from this latest F1 ‘trick’…

Latest bit of intrigue, who’s the clever/naughty team?

[Nobody]

Name and shame otherwise the whole bloody show looks suss!

[JL14]

Time to speculate which team it is 

 

Suspicion that have erupted are that a team has designed its car in such a way that it was possible to adjust the clearance of the front bib – also known as a T-tray – through a change of settings inside the cockpit.

FIA acts for US GP on suspicions over front bib parc ferme trick (motorsport.com)

 

Bit of contradicting statements though:

- It is understood teams have been alerted to the possibility of this happening through the design details of all cars needing to be uploaded to FIA servers on open-source components – which all competitors have access to.

- The FIA says they have not received any indication of any team employing such a system

Edited by JL14, 17 October 2024 - 06:08.

[MikeTekRacing]

It’s obviously Sauber

[RedRabbit]

Time to speculate which team it is

Suspicion that have erupted are that a team has designed its car in such a way that it was possible to adjust the clearance of the front bib – also known as a T-tray – through a change of settings inside the cockpit.
FIA acts for US GP on suspicions over front bib parc ferme trick (motorsport.com)

Bit of contradicting statements though:
- It is understood teams have been alerted to the possibility of this happening through the design details of all cars needing to be uploaded to FIA servers on open-source components – which all competitors have access to.
- The FIA says they have not received any indication of any team employing such a system

Some of this doesn't make sense. Surely the teams can't access design files of other teams on the FIA server? That seems insane.

Personally, I don't see the issue with having such a device. I remember Red Bull had a system to adjust ride height during the Vettel era that would have been similar.

When does Parc Ferme end? Race start? Or when they leave the pits for the grid?

[FirstnameLastname]

It’s obviously Sauber

Adjusting it the wrong way?

[JL14]

Some of this doesn't make sense. Surely the teams can't access design files of other teams on the FIA server? That seems insane.

Personally, I don't see the issue with having such a device. I remember Red Bull had a system to adjust ride height during the Vettel era that would have been similar.

When does Parc Ferme end? Race start? Or when they leave the pits for the grid?

 

Open-source components they all have access to

[pUs]

Will be a bit interesting to see if it affects the pecking order. I know what I suspect, but let's see how it all pans out.

Edited by pUs, 17 October 2024 - 06:54.

[Broekschaap]

Some of this doesn't make sense. Surely the teams can't access design files of other teams on the FIA server? That seems insane.

Personally, I don't see the issue with having such a device. I remember Red Bull had a system to adjust ride height during the Vettel era that would have been similar.

When does Parc Ferme end? Race start? Or when they leave the pits for the grid?

Race start (see 40.2 of the sporting regulations: Each car will be deemed to be in parc ferme from the time at which it leaves the pit lane for
the first time during the qualifying session until the start of the race.)

 

Like JL14 said they all have access to the open source components. This is in 17.6.2 of the technical regulations: For all OSC in use by all Competitors, the Design Specification must reside on a designated server specified by the FIA, and be accessible by all Competitors.

 

There is a list in appendix 5

[macjim]

My aren't they naughty little scamps!

[thefinalapex]

Curious wich team used it but we probably will never find out. I am no technical expert but how much performance gain is there to be had with such a trick?

[BobbyRicky]

It’s obviously Sauber

 

At this point the FIA should feed SauberKickAlfa info so that they can break any rule they want so that they can finish in the top 15 atleast once.

 

Its going to be interesting to see which of the top 4 teams are going to have a sudden drop in performance this weekend attributed to non-working upgrades or setup-errors.

[jonklug]

F1 is truly back baby! Break over, finally!

[Beri]

As said in the Buildup Thread.. This is plain cheating. Not even bending the rules but cold and hard cheating.

[jonklug]

As said in the Buildup Thread.. This is plain cheating. Not even bending the rules but cold and hard cheating.

 

Yep, but they need proof that it happened, and since they didn't monitor it and just suspect it, sounds like they'll get away with it if they don't do it again. 

[PayasYouRace]

Sounds like the stay that holds the front of the bib just protruded into the cockpit with a screw adjuster. I guess it would be that simple.

[Heyli]

I guess this would mainly affect qualifying performance, as they'll need to raise the height a bit for the race. So let's see which team does worse in qualifying now!

[Beri]

Sounds like the stay that holds the front of the bib just protruded into the cockpit with a screw adjuster. I guess it would be that simple.

 

If so, then no one noticed at Parc Ferme a screw driver being used in the cockpit? I think there is camera coverage enough in Parc Ferme to confirm this.

[frosty125]

I hope no one was actually doing this.

[frosty125]

If so, then no one noticed at Parc Ferme a screw driver being used in the cockpit? I think there is camera coverage enough in Parc Ferme to confirm this.

Tooless adjuster would make more sense.

[Beri]

But that would then appear at scrutineering. A screw adjuster looks like a normal screw and would pass scrutineering.

 

Edit; thats my take that normal looking screws will not raise questions.

Edited by Beri, 17 October 2024 - 08:35.

[krapmeister]

If so, then no one noticed at Parc Ferme a screw driver being used in the cockpit? I think there is camera coverage enough in Parc Ferme to confirm this.

Maybe the driver needed his 'belts' to be adjusted?

[Ellios]

As said in the Buildup Thread.. This is plain cheating. Not even bending the rules but cold and hard cheating.

 

I'll take just 50p GBP every time a team does something in F1 that fans start calling cheat. 

[PayasYouRace]

If so, then no one noticed at Parc Ferme a screw driver being used in the cockpit? I think there is camera coverage enough in Parc Ferme to confirm this.

Probably just would require some sort of knob to twiddle.

Just guessing here. Doesn’t seem like anyone has been caught doing anything.

[Beri]

Maybe the driver needed his 'belts' to be adjusted?

 

 

Probably just would require some sort of knob to twiddle.

Just guessing here. Doesn’t seem like anyone has been caught doing anything.

 

I wonder if we get a full explanation on what was discovered. Because this guessing of us makes me wonder how this works.

 

 

I'll take just 50p GBP every time a team does something in F1 that fans start calling cheat. 

 

But in this case, it is cheating if true. There is no flexi wing grey area here. This is simply something that the rules prohibit. Making it genuine cheating.

[Ellios]

I wonder if we get a full explanation on what was discovered. Because this guessing of us makes me wonder how this works.

 

 

 

But in this case, it is cheating if true. There is no flexi wing grey area here. This is simply something that the rules prohibit. Making it genuine cheating.

 

For another 0.25p add in 'not in the spirit of the rules' 

[MattK9]

Sounds like the stay that holds the front of the bib just protruded into the cockpit with a screw adjuster. I guess it would be that simple.

 

And if you hit a drain cover like Sainz did at Vegas, that stay would be propelled into the cockpit with lethal force!

[PayasYouRace]

And if you hit a drain cover like Sainz did at Vegas, that stay would be propelled into the cockpit with lethal force!

You’d engineer it to break rather than drive up through into the cockpit, though it would be level with the driver’s legs I suppose.

[DJH63]

I guess this would mainly affect qualifying performance, as they'll need to raise the height a bit for the race. So let's see which team does worse in qualifying now!

It affects both as you can have optimal ride height for both rather than having to commit to a compromise ahead of qualifying.

[krapmeister]

I wonder if we get a full explanation on what was discovered. Because this guessing of us makes me wonder how this works.

But in this case, it is cheating if true. There is no flexi wing grey area here. This is simply something that the rules prohibit. Making it genuine cheating.

Didn't RBR get found to have the facility to possibly adjust something on the front end by hand (ie potentially in parc ferme) when it was required in the regs to only have adjustment via a tool? IIRC nothing really came of it, as it couldn't be shown to have been used illegally.

This seems a similar situation? Is it specifically prohibited to be able to adjust the bib height via the cockpit area, or is it more the fact that the potential is there to do it in parc ferme conditions? If the latter, I guess unless they can prove they have done so then nothing more will probably come of it - although perhaps the team involved will be told to alter the height adjustment mechanism to remove the possibility...

Edit: yes jcbc3 posted about it in the USGP build up thread

We've been there before: https://www.grandpri...ontroversy.html

And that was deemed 'not cheating, but change the car for next race'. For consistency let's hope that's the same outcome here.

Edited by krapmeister, 17 October 2024 - 09:13.

[Broekschaap]

I want pictures of mechanics diving head first into the cockpit with only legs visible on the outside! (on a more serious note: wouldn't camera's have picked up any strange behaviour if the lever/screw is deep into the cockpit).

[jacdaniel]

People always blame Red Bull but they’ve been so bad this season that I very much doubt they’re using any tricks!

[Heyli]

It affects both as you can have optimal ride height for both rather than having to commit to a compromise ahead of qualifying.

My thinking was that this would be mainly concerning the plank wear, no? Where with a heaver load you need to ride a bit higher, and that's not something you can really compromise on? 

[Joseki]

I am more suspicious of 2 teams:

 

1. McLaren, simply because they have a rocketship that has gained an insane amount of laptime this season over every other team.

2. Mercedes, they are often the car that is running the lowest on saturday so I'd say they may be using it to be more aggressive in quali.

 

But we'll see, it's also possible we may never know or that is all smoke.

Edited by Joseki, 17 October 2024 - 09:40.

[sterlingfan2000]

My bet is Ferrari.

I remember Zac Brown saying they take their Rear wing off but FIA should investigate this other team, they are doing something not right.

[SparkPlug86]

I'll laugh my head off if it's Red Bull... they'll be behind Sauber come end of the season

[Ste678]

Having such a system would mean getting a car that works almost perfect under all conditions?

Wonder which team that might be

[hamalo]

My best bet is Redbull, especially last year the difference in Quali between them and others was often minimal, and in the Races the Gaps were so huge that no one could explain it themselves really. But we will never find out officially, let's wait and see who does worse suddenly.

It's such a shame that those things are always thrown under the bus and they wanna sell us some stupid excuse or precaution. 

[Showty]

Having such a system would mean getting a car that works almost perfect under all conditions?
Wonder which team that might be

Not necessarily perfect.

Not even better than other cars.

Just in the best possible condition that car can work.

[SenorSjon]

I'll laugh my head off if it's Red Bull... they'll be behind Sauber come end of the season

 

Verstappen finished 2nd last race and Perez was in his usual position.

[Miles749]

Would this effect depend a lot depending on the track? One some tracks it is more important to change ride height while on others it is less important?

 

If so, this could point to who was using it. 

[Miles749]

Another thought. On tracks where the race pace is most important this team would be able to do both, get the best ride height for the race (good pace in race) and best ride height for the qualy (much better pace compared to other teams).

 

So maybe lets look for a team that did really well in qualy on a track where race pace is critical (easy to overtake). 

 

Azerbaijan - Ferrari P1 and P3.

Belgium - Ferrari P2, Red Bull P1 and P3. 

Edited by Miles749, 17 October 2024 - 11:40.

[TomNokoe]

It's a strange story considering we don't know the team, or if they're even using the mystery device. For all we know it could be totally benign. Let's see this weekend.

[Stephane]

My best bet is Redbull, especially last year the difference in Quali between them and others was often minimal, and in the Races the Gaps were so huge that no one could explain it themselves really. But we will never find out officially, let's wait and see who does worse suddenly.
It's such a shame that those things are always thrown under the bus and they wanna sell us some stupid excuse or precaution.

The effect would be the other way, better in Q than in R.


Anyway, who remembers the last team being caught with a plank too thin ?

[Miles749]

The effect would be the other way, better in Q than in R.


Anyway, who remembers the last team being caught with a plank too thin ?

 

Plank too thin should be easier to avoid with this trick. Run low as you like in qualy and then raise it up for the race.

[Stephane]

That's the point, yes.


If you have the trick but forget to raise it in parc fermé, you're too low



Without the trick, you have a higher car in Q

Edited by Stephane, 17 October 2024 - 12:21.

[hamalo]

The effect would be the other way, better in Q than in R.


Anyway, who remembers the last team being caught with a plank too thin ?

 

It can be both ways, others set their cars up for Quali and suffer in the Race while you could change your ride height to help your Race Setup.

[WouterF1]

I'll laugh my head off if it's Red Bull... they'll be behind Sauber come end of the season

 

Mclaren Fanboy!

Hahaha, funny! NOT!!

[Stephane]

It can be both ways, others set their cars up for Quali and suffer in the Race while you could change your ride height to help your Race Setup.

Not sure you understand what happens here.



Either you have the 'trick' and can lower your car in Q or you don't.

The advantage is seen in q

[AlexPrime]

The effect would be the other way, better in Q than in R.

Sounds like Mercedes (in recent races)