14 replies to this topic

[FlyingSaucer]

To make the story short: Cliff Allison, in 1958, was an official driver for the Lotus team, and was driving, at the time, one of the Lotus 16s belonging to the team.

 

However, during the 1958 Portuguese GP, the driver crashed his vehicle, extensively damaging his Lotus. For reasons that I cannot explain (perhaps Team Lotus did not have a spare vehicle at the driver's disposal for the race), Allison made an agreement with Scuderia Centro Sud, to rent one of the team's 250Fs to compete in the race. 

 

Reading some reports of the race, there is a debate about whether, despite Allison having raced in a car from the Italian team, in fact, the entry would still be made by Team Lotus. 

 

So my question is: in terms of historical accounting, is Allison's entry in the race credited to Lotus (despite racing a 250F) or Centro Sud (on a basis that Allison was registered as a Lotus driver for the event)?

 

And what if he had finished on the podium? Such a result would go down in the history of Team Lotus, Scuderia Centro Sud, or an unique joint-entry made by Centro Sud/Lotus?

[Sterzo]

The Centro Sud Maserati had already been entered for Troy Ruttman to drive, but according to Motor Sport he didn't arrive. So it would simply have been a driver change, no change to the entry required.

 

The Lotus was described by DSJ as "an unrepairable heap of bits," and of course spare cars weren't the norm in those days.

Edited by Sterzo, 17 October 2024 - 17:10.

[Tim Murray]

According to Graham Gauld in his biography of Allison, the agreement between Team Lotus and Scuderia Centro Sud was that the start money, plus any prize money, would be split between the two concerns. My understanding is that the car was officially entered by Team Lotus. The car carried #18, which was the same as Cliff’s Lotus 16 had worn before the accident.

[Henk Vasmel]

The story I have in my database is a bit more complicated; It involves 4 entries, (18), (28), (30) and (34)

To start with (18), originally Team Lotus, Lotus 16-362, for Allison. Marked as "WO ?" for possibly written off in practice.

Then Maserati 250F-2507 [2522], entered by Team Lotus / Scuderia Centro Sud. Allison qualified/started 13th and retired in the race,

finally the same car practiced by Carroll Shelby. Also with (18)

There is a question mark over the start number, because it could well have been with his own (28), before the Allison crash, or (30) for Scuderia Centro Sud

The entrant is of course not certain, that is the whole purpose of this thread.

 

Then (28), easy. Maserarti 250F-2533, entered by Temple Buell for Carroll Shelby. Practice 10th, race classified 9th, but crashed

It is possible that Shelby practiced the Allison car as (28) or (30), or later as (18).

 

Then (30). This was Maserati 250F-2501 [2523], but that one was crashed in practice by Maria-Teresa  De Filippis. She raced 2502 [2511]. Practice 15th, Retired in the race

I have this same 2502 [2511] as a practice car for Troy Ruttman, which would mean that he did not "DNA", but just DNS.

THe use of the ex-D' Oliveira Maserati (see (34) might be because the original spare car had already gon to Allison, but now I'm getting into guesswork.

 

Finally (34). This was also Maserati 250F-2502 [2511], entered by and for Casimiro D' Oliveira (an ex-Centro Sud car). Since Casimiro did not arrive, the car was then used to replace 2501 [2523] after its crash.

 

Since the Allison Maserati was not racing with the same number as it was entered with (presumably), it must have involved a change of entrant.

The list of entries is nicely grouped by make, and a Maserati on number (18) stands out. Actually Maserati numbers were in the range of (28)-(34). Lotus had (18)-(22)

Edited by Henk Vasmel, 17 October 2024 - 18:11.

[Jahn1234567890]

Carroll Shelby and Troy Ruttman were initially nominated to drive for Centro Sud at Portugal. Ruttmann flew home before the event and Shelby instead drove 2533 for Scuderia Buell.
In effect leaving Scuderia Centro Sud without a driver. Which was 'solved' by the issues of de Filippis and Allison as explained by Henk.

[RS2000]

I don't know about 1958 but later FIA regulations for International events were that the entrant could change the car or driver but not both. I can think of cases on International rallies where this didn't seem to be strictly adhered to (and was complicated by the presence of a co-driver who was technically also the driver).

[DCapps]

I don't know about 1958 but later FIA regulations for International events were that the entrant could change the car or driver but not both. I can think of cases on International rallies where this didn't seem to be strictly adhered to (and was complicated by the presence of a co-driver who was technically also the driver).

 

Cite the regulation or regulations.

[Doug Nye]

Regardless of the letter of the law as set down in contemporary regulations, the reality in practice was that such organisers as those in Portugal '58 would reach an accommodation with almost any paid or paying (and crowd attracting) entrant, some how, some way, to keep them in the game for race day.  This would apply almost regardless of whatever misfortune might have befallen them during practice, never mind the letter - nor spirit - of the rule book.  Not least any damage to an entry which might, conceivably, reflect upon the organisers' operational methods - or course preparation - was always liable to make them eager to compensate - often by turning a blind eye, and/or persuading FIA authority to do so as well.

 

One fig leaf often used was the 'democratic' general approval of some unfortunate's continued inclusion as expressed by all rival teams.  Sometimes Ferrari's voiced approval counted for more than that of several more minor (British) teams combined.

 

Are we surprised?

 

DCN 

Edited by Doug Nye, 19 October 2024 - 16:39.

[DCapps]

Funny how people keep trying to database and digitize an analogue world and then become rather perplexed and upset when things don't quite fit... 

[AllanL]

......The Lotus was described by DSJ as "an unrepairable heap of bits," 

I've re-read DSJ's report and am still unsure whether he was referring to the result of the accident in practise, or just making a generic comment on the Lotus 16. 

 

On a philosophical point, is an Italian car entered by Team Lotus in '58 more or less likely to get to the end of a race?

 

I'll get my coat.

[Catalina Park]

Stuff like this used to happen, the organisers could get away with things as long as they got the agreement of all competitors. Change of cars, late entries, change of category or class, drivers not doing the required number of laps in qualifying, etc.

I did a one make race in a field of Holdens (support race at a national championship meeting) and a TV celebrity wanted to race against us in a Ford. We were all called into a room with the clerk of course and invited to sign an approval form. All the Holden drivers except one were in favour and eventually they convinced the holdout to sign by offering him $50.

Edited by Catalina Park, 19 October 2024 - 03:23.

[Ray Bell]

I imagine the fan might have been stained if the interloper had won...

 

Or maybe there was a clause in the unwritten agreement that he couldn't?

[Doug Nye]

More likely that driving a Centro Sud Maserati simply ensured that he wouldn't...

 

DCN

[Doug Nye]

The Automovel Club de Portugal published its Formula 1 1958 Grand Prix regulations in its actually very nice produced race programme, all 34 articles of those regs in Portuguese, while extracts are also presented in French and English.  It's also interesting to see full regulations published for the supporting Formula Junior event.

 

My grasp of Portuguese is tenuous, to say the least, but there appears to be no regulation whatsoever governing driver substitution pre-race - as opposed to during the race, as in a shared drive. 

 

Incidentally, for those interested in such matters, the winner of the GP earned a cash prize of 50,000 Escudos - the winner of the Formula Junior Taca Cidade do Porto race, 10,000 Escudos.  Fourteen runners were listed for the FJ race, 12 taking advantage of the 1100cc category, plus two optimists in an 850cc class.  This compared to 15 entries - plus a spare slot for "N.N." (Ferrari) - in the feature Grand Prix.

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 19 October 2024 - 17:59.

[nexfast]

The first prize was not that generous, around 15 000 pounds at current prices.