51 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

I have just come across this pic - well-known Bentleys - but can anyone identify the pub and its location?  

 

DCN

 

 

 

[Bloggsworth]

Well, at least we can retire to the snack bar while we think about it...

[BRG]

The Snack Bar has a thatched roof, so presumably we can rule out Scotland, Wales and northern England.  

 

Was there any clue as to what the event was - that might help a little?

[Odseybod]

Given that the Blower model second from the left (UU 5872) is/was the 1930 #2 team car at Le Mans, I'd suggest a semi-official gathering, unless it had already been sold into private hands. 

[Odseybod]

This is a very, very long shot, prompted by the second item in this Eoin Young column in the 17th January 1981 issue of Autocar.

 

 

In what seems to have been the precursor to today's Drive It Days (when owners of classic cars are encouraged to take to the roads and startle ordinary, God-fearing motorists), he's told of an unsuccessful 1946 attempt by members of the Bentley Drivers' Club to make their first post-war visit to Brooklands. Having been rebuffed by assorted powers-that-be, they adjourned to drown their sorrows at the nearby White Lion pub in Cobham.

 

Could that be it? Well, probably not the White Lion in the centre of Cobham, as before it was demolished (probably to make way for homes for the elderly and bewildered  - I'll put my reservation in soon), it looked far too imposing a building to have a (shhh!) Snack Bar attached. But Cobham also boasted a Little White Lion slightly further from the centre, which looks much more of a possibility for our location. It's obviously been extensively mucked about sorry modernised and extended over the years, before becoming a Loch Fyne restaurant which then went bust and is now in danger of becoming a MacDonalds - history repeating itself, if it really was our original Snack Bar? Here's a pic of it in its current semi-derelict state, courtesy of Google Streetview. 

 

 

I also found an earlier pic of it as a thriving pub, source unknown. The Loch Fyne version is the part at an angle to the main road, with the blank gable end facing us):

 

 

I know it's very tempting to hammer the 'facts' into shape, until they resemble a solution. I'm also slightly worried about the lack of thatch, though the steepness of the roof pitch on some of the buildings suggests they could originally have had a thatch covering (you need a steeper slope to persuade snow to slide off thatch than you do with a tiled roof).

 

Well, that's my theory anyway.

 

 

[cooper997]

I sent the link to a couple of Aussie Bentley enthusiasts yesterday and although the 'event' is unknown to them, TJ sent through this photo of him with the UU 5872 Birkin team car at the Bentley factory in 2011.

 

Tony Johns photo

 

 

Stephen

[Doug Nye]

Coo - how on earth did you progress so far Tony?  It could well be the right place...so a caption reading "possibly" or "perhaps" would not be unreasonable...  The cars other than Bentley in my image could fit either pre- and immediately post-war.

 

DCN

[Odseybod]

Just a stroke of luck, Doug. Having jointly been a little rude about the Autocar Archive's search function, I typed in 'Bentley Club outing' and that Eoing column was one of the hits it came up with. From then on, Google was my friend. But yes, still only a 'possible perhaps maybe' solution, though.

[Vitesse2]

I'd wondered about that December 1945 meeting too, Tony - although as some people are in shirtsleeves I doubt the photo shows that particular occasion. You got further than me on the Little White Lion.

 

Eoin's article also slightly misrepresents what happened. The club was somewhat hoist by its own petard - subsequent correspondence makes clear that they wanted to use the track on a Sunday, which was still obviously a no-no, despite everything which had happened there during the war, some of which would no doubt have disturbed the peace of a Sunday on St George's Hill! Additionally they had originally given the impression they would be visiting on a Saturday, which had been approved - that approval being withdrawn when it became clear that the BDC wanted to charge for admission - which only the site owner Brooklands (Weybridge) Ltd could do, under its agreements with HM Customs & Excise. See the letter from KL Skinner in The Autocar January 11th 1946.

[BRG]

This is very much on my home turf within the Borough of Elmbridge.

 

The White Lion Hotel in Cobham to which Eoin Young referred is still there although it now retirement apartments.  It is at the junction of the A307 Portsmouth Road (formerly the A3) and the A245 Stoke Road.  For a while it was the Vermont Exchange, an American style burger and beer joint.  It dates from the 16th century although it was given a new frontage in Georgian times.

 

The former LIttle White Lion was presumably so named to differentiate it from the Hotel and might be the first pub that you pass if leaving Brooklands to head back to London, as it sits on the former A3 Portsmouth Road.  It was also next door to Thompson and Taylor's garage which had Brooklands connections.  But I do not recall it ever being thatched, and indeed there is a shot from 1911 which is said to show the pub in the distance.  It is clearly tiled not thatched.   And no sign of the Snack Bar, but that would have come later, I suppose.

 

So perhaps the search continues.

[Geoff E]

Cobb's Railton Special was built at the Cobham Motor Works, the site of which was behind the garage which is next to what was the Little White Lion.

[Vitesse2]

The original report of the December BDC gathering is in The Autocar's Sport Notes column, December 28th 1945. It specifies that they lunched at the White Lion Hotel, after which thirty or so Bentleys formed up in line astern to visit the T&T facility, 'thundering through Cobham in one long line'. So that rules out the Little White Lion being the location of the gathering, I think.

 

A visit to the anonymous T&T warehouse where a number of racing and road cars were stored is described in Motor Sport December 1942. So it was perhaps adjacent to their existing Cobham premises?

 

None of the above excludes the possibility of the location of Doug's picture being the Little White Lion, of course.

[Odseybod]

I think the Little White Lion was actually made up of two buildings, with the garage in the 1911 shot becoming the more distant half in my (unattributed) pic - I'm assuming there was a gap between the two (where the fence in the 1911 shot is), allowing access if anyone chose to build a Snack Bar there, which could have been thatched, as might be the case in the pic I posted. But I really don't insist or challenge local knowledge!

 

In the meantime, I've found this write-up of the abortive visit to Brooklands in The Autocar of 28th December 1945 - the switch from Saturday to Sunday was probably glossed over in the re-telling. I take the point about non-winter clothing but maybe they were having a practice run on global warming?

 

 

 

[Rupertlt1]

UU 5872 was laid up during the Hitler war and did not reappear until October 1957, after an extensive restoration.

It did not have a good war and was left to deteriorate.

This suggests the photograph is prewar?

Can we detect competition numbers?

Does this photograph have any connection to Jenks?

RGDS RLT

[Doug Nye]

Good points Roop - and No, no connection with DSJ where this one is concerned.  

 

Thanks everybody for all the guidance re White Lion versus Little White Lion, I had already excluded Wisley Hut Hotel and another of other possibilities which sprang to mind, until I checked on how they looked around the 1930s/40s.  The Little White Lion - at least in configuration - has come the closest yet.

 

But if UU was not again made mobile until the late '50s that really should indeed kick the ball back into the pre-war years.

 

DCN

[BRG]

I am coming to the conclusion that we are talking about two separate Bentley events.  The immediately post-war 'rally' from late 1945 and a probably pre-war summer time gathering at a pub somewhere. 

 

I struggle to match the place in the first photograph with the Little White Lion (and indeed, I took a moment to stop and look on my way home just now) and it just doesn't seem to fit very well.   Nor does the picture I linked in post #10 which I have found labelled as both 1903 and 1911. I have reservations about the date of that as the garage 'The Cobham Motor Works' looks rather too well established for a pre-WW1 dating, but I stand ready to be knocked down about that!

 

If it is correct (and I am sure it is) that UU5872 was off the road until 1957, then we perhaps have a rather more informal Bentley boys get together that might be almost anywhere in southern England.  I had an idea that the BDC used to have a place on the North Downs along The Ridge, Woldingham so could it be near there?

[jtremlett]

...Can we detect competition numbers?...

UU5872 appears to have a white roundel bearing the number 3 on the side.

[Odseybod]

Sorry for throwing in a red fishy thing, if that's what it is.

 

Look forward to hearing the results of Doug's enquiries (Owners' Club or Drivers' Club? I think the OC only deals with modern ones, but could be wrong).

[BRG]

UU5872 appears to have a white roundel bearing the number 3 on the side.

Yes, it does. What races did it run as number 3?

 

It also sports an AA badge on the grille.  And the headlights seem to be blanked off for some reason. After the race cars were sold off from 1931, this car was owned by a Mr Mavrogodato and was largely in store until the late 1950s.  

[Vitesse2]

I am coming to the conclusion that we are talking about two separate Bentley events.  The immediately post-war 'rally' from late 1945 and a probably pre-war summer time gathering at a pub somewhere. 

 

I struggle to match the place in the first photograph with the Little White Lion (and indeed, I took a moment to stop and look on my way home just now) and it just doesn't seem to fit very well.   Nor does the picture I linked in post #10 which I have found labelled as both 1903 and 1911. I have reservations about the date of that as the garage 'The Cobham Motor Works' looks rather too well established for a pre-WW1 dating, but I stand ready to be knocked down about that!

The Cobham Motor Works first appears in the phone book in 1909. At the time their number was Cobham 21. Final listing is in the 1943 book, by which time their number had changed to Cobham 13, so they may have moved at some point - although in both cases the address is just 'The Street, Cobham'.

 

Yes, it does. What races did it run as number 3?

 

It also sports an AA badge on the grille.  And the headlights seem to be blanked off for some reason.

Number is probably just from a BDC event; they were a big - and rich - enough club to hire Donington at least once for a club race meeting in the 1930s. So, could be a race number, sprint or hillclimb. And there were so many Bentleys entered at the first Gransden Lodge meeting in 1946 that they had to be split into two races!

 

Blanking headlights was a fairly standard practice to avoid damage from errant stones. Maybe a trick of the light, but I think BYF10's headlights are covered as well - in its case with shiny steel discs.
 

[Doug Nye]

Sorry for throwing in a red fishy thing, if that's what it is.

 

Look forward to hearing the results of Doug's enquiries (Owners' Club or Drivers' Club? I think the OC only deals with modern ones, but could be wrong).

 

Dammit!  Of course Bentley DRIVERS Club - in all its Majesty...(and indeed occasional pomposity   ).  What a mistake to make.

 

DCN

[Odseybod]

Thinking Bugattis, perhaps?

[Rupertlt1]

Here are the cars in the photograph in order:

BYF 10; UU 5872; YO 5902; YN 2968; RM 1728

Cross checked here:

https://www.vintageb...y/by-reg-no.php

Anything known ref car histories?

Note BYF 10 not listed.

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 21 October 2024 - 09:49.

[Rupertlt1]

Yes, it does. What races did it run as number 3?

 

It also sports an AA badge on the grille.  And the headlights seem to be blanked off for some reason. After the race cars were sold off from 1931, this car was owned by a Mr Mavrogodato and was largely in store until the late 1950s.  

 

The correct headlights on UU 5872 are by Carl Zeiss of Jena, as raced at Le Mans in 1930.

On restoration in 1957:

"Head lamps presented a big problem. The car had Smiths lamps, and not those of Zeiss manufacture as used at Le Mans. Zeiss are in the Eastern Zone of Germany and very inaccessible, so the countryside was searched for the exact type and, almost miraculously, a new pair, still in their wrappings, was discovered in the stores of Anglo-Auto Accessories in London. They are beautifully made, double walled instruments with silvered glass reflectors, cut glass lenses and bulbs (quite irreplaceable) with a rear fitting shroud, operated by Bowden cable, for dipping."

The owner from 1933 was M.N. Mavrogordato, motorcyclist, rallyist and sometime pilot to Lord Nuffield.

He sold the car in a poor state to Stanley Sears in 1955.

Was UU 5872 #3 in the Brooklands Double Twelve in 1930? The B.R.D.C. 500? Was the car re-registered at some point?

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 21 October 2024 - 10:38.

[Doug Nye]

1930 Brooklands Double-12Hrs race - the Bentley Speed Sixes (not 'Blowers') which finished 1-2 were race numbers 2 and 3 - but respectively wore registrations GF 8507 and GF 8511 - the three Paget team Blowers all retired, UU 5872 having been Birkin/Chassagne's race No 4 - YU 3252 Kidston/Jack Dunfee wore race No 5 - and UR 6571 Benjafield/d'Erlanger race No 6.

 

The 1930 BRDC 500-Miles Blower Bentleys wore race numbers 36, 37 and 38 - it seems.

 

DCN

[Rupertlt1]

The Bentley Drivers' Club "commenced its activities" by May 1936.

Inaugural run May 24th.

Founder G. K. Pelmore, April 1936.

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 21 October 2024 - 12:47.

[Geoff E]

 

Note BYF 10 not listed.

 

 

That registration and, presumably the car, was first used in mid 1935.

[Sterzo]

We can comfort ourselves that, even if we struggle to identify a pub, we know what a Bentley looks like. Here's a quick snap of a story in today's on-line Times.

 

[Myhinpaa]

In the video they use that picture to illustrate UU 5872's participation in the 1930 Le Mans too, why??

 

https://www.thetimes...uxury-0rpctn5qj

 

The photo is taken at the 1930 Klausenpass-Rennen, a 21.5 km "sprint" race through the mountain pass in the Canton of Uri in Switzerland.

Rudolf Caracciola is driving the Mercedes-Benz SSK to victory in the 5 to 8-litre sportscar class.

 

https://klausenrenne...de/ranking/1930

[Rupertlt1]

Here is a suggestion: the Bottle and Glass, at Binfield near Henley-on-Thames.

https://q-xx.bstatic...9b7ab4e33c98&o=

RGDS RLT

[Odseybod]

Well, I'd certainly stop there, Rupert (which I know doesn't narrow the field all that much).

[BRG]

Is there any evidence of a Bentley connection, because on appearance alone, it doesn't look a fit?   It is a (probably) older half timbered building unlike the one pictured originally.

[Rupertlt1]

I've looked at every damn pub south of the Wash!

Now looking for my Observer's Book of Architecture.

Try this: https://www.redbourn...e-chequers-pub/

RGDS RLT  

[BRG]

Looks nice!  But still not a match, I fear!   The trouble is that there was a sort of general style of country pubs so there will be hundreds that are a bit similar.

 

Perhaps we should await Doug's enquiries with the BDC?

[dolomite]

I think I may have found a candidate. The Fountain in Loughton, Bucks, now part of Milton Keynes. In the 1930s this pub apparently had its own private aerodrome. Today it has become a Harvester restaurant. https://goldrick.co....ppbucks.htm#319 Here is an older view of the same pub from 1970 which looks more similar to Doug’s photo. https://www.livingar...he-fountain-pub

[dolomite]

I think I may have found a candidate. The Fountain in Loughton, Bucks, now part of Milton Keynes. In the 1930s this pub apparently had its own private aerodrome. Today it has become a Harvester restaurant. https://goldrick.co....ppbucks.htm#319 Here is an older view of the same pub from 1970 which looks more similar to Doug’s photo. https://www.livingar...he-fountain-pub

Further searching also brings up an aerial photo from 1931 posted on Facebook which shows a building next to the pub that seems to correspond to the snack bar. 

[Geoff E]

I think I may have found a candidate. The Fountain in Loughton, Bucks, now part of Milton Keynes. 

 

 

I'm sure you've cracked it. 

 

The 2020 Streetview image shows the uneven size/spacing of the windows in the main building seen in the original photo-

 

(EDITED to remove URL)

Edited by Geoff E, 23 October 2024 - 07:57.

[jtremlett]

What sleuthing!  I'm sure you're right.

 

  

[Vitesse2]

From the other direction - 1960s(?) postcard found on eBay. Reverse has directions which mention the M1, so obviously post-1959:

 

[Vitesse2]

Further searching also brings up an aerial photo from 1931 posted on Facebook which shows a building next to the pub that seems to correspond to the snack bar. 

That would be this one, then ...

 

[Rupertlt1]

Good work! At some point the property acquired the carriage lamps and the snack bar signs.

Also windows in the annexe?

I still think we are looking 1935-1939?

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 23 October 2024 - 08:38.

[Myhinpaa]

I'm sure you've cracked it. 

 

The 2020 Streetview image shows the uneven size/spacing of the windows in the main building seen in the original photo-

 

(EDITED to remove URL)

 

93 London Road, Loughton, Milton Keynes, Buckinghamshire, MK5 8AF

[Doug Nye]

ABSOLUTELY ASTONISHING!

 

Thank you so much everybody, especially to dolomite for 'The Fountain' and to Rupert for sheer effort. Cars, people and now pubs. TNF triumphs again..

 

DCN.

[dolomite]

Thanks Doug! I suppose the next question is what were they doing there that day. Maybe a stop off on the way to Donington?

[BRG]

Brilliant!  But how on earth did you find it?  I am full of admiration (and some Greene King Abbot Ale).

 

Now we have the WHERE, all we need is the WHY and WHEN

[Rupertlt1]

I looked here but must have suffered from brain fade:

https://goldrick.co....ppbucks.htm#319

The aerodrome is intriguing.

RGDS RLT

[BRG]

 

 

The aerodrome is intriguing.

RGDS RLT

I doubt if it was anything elaborate. Maps and aerial photos from the time suggest there were open fields behind the hotel which was all that was needed to be an aerodrome in those days.

[Vitesse2]

I doubt if it was anything elaborate. Maps and aerial photos from the time suggest there were open fields behind the hotel which was all that was needed to be an aerodrome in those days.

Well, that and a windsock. It is listed on the Airfields of Britain Conservation Trust site, but with minimal information - operational 1931-1939. It was about a mile from the pub though.

 

https://www.abct.org...enny-stratford/

 

Some more details, including some anecdotes: https://www.ukairfie.../Fountain-Hotel

[Myhinpaa]

I doubt if it was anything elaborate. Maps and aerial photos from the time suggest there were open fields behind the hotel which was all that was needed to be an aerodrome in those days.

 

 

I looked here but must have suffered from brain fade:

https://goldrick.co....ppbucks.htm#319

The aerodrome is intriguing.

RGDS RLT

 

Instructions for landing procedure, from the link above.

 

 

(Framed photos, from inside the pub)

[Rupertlt1]

Article ref planning inquiry for road-widening scheme:

Lieut-Commander Richard J. Harrison,

late R.N., managing director of the Com-

pany, said he purchased the property in

1930. There were three reasons for his

purchase. It was a free house, the fore-

court was large and could accommodate

many motorists, and being a period house

of the fourteenth century could be made

attractive both inside and out. The fore-

court was a most important part of the

premises, for it could accommodate over

thirty cars. If a compulsory order were

made he would endeavour to make the

acquiring authority purchase the whole of

the property.

Wolverton Express, Friday 9 February 1934, Page 10

RGDS RLT