1474 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

A busy race for the stewards. The FIA don’t seem at time of typing this to have posted the decision document that gave the full detail for the penalty they gave Norris at the end of the USGP but please use this thread if you have thoughts on it.

 

e. Now they have.

 

[Counterbalance]

Derek Warwick doesn’t seem to like the current generation of British F1 drivers much. Oh, and he’s a terrible steward.

[chrcol]

I am in two minds, there is inconsistency in how the rules are enforced, and they did previously clamp down on this type of racing, until Max started doing it a lot from 2021 onwards where they then seemingly decided to never penalise him for it.

 

Definitely controversial.

 

Answer is yes for consistency with previous decisions, but also unsure based on what the rules are supposed to be as I do remember they changed the rules some years ago on it to discourage this type of racing.

[Myrvold]

I voted "not that simple" on both.

Norris shouldn't overtake outside track limits.

Verstappen shouldn't force Norris off the track and then go off himself.

 

When both happens... "not that simple".

[sofarapartguy]

Screw Max. And probably Jos for teaching him this behaviour. 

[DJH63]

The FIA official decision says it better than anyone else could. It also confirms consistency with the Gasly decision.

[P123]

I think the stewards could have intervened a lot sooner.  Both noted for going off.  Lando the lasting advantage.  Swap positions.  Go again.

[JvsKVB77]

+ 5 sec for both. 

[Timorous]

Follow the rules as written. Penalise both.

Max clearly braked too late to stay on track so even if he was ahead at the apex and can arguably force the outside car off track the moment he leaves the track himself it is a moot point and becomes forcing another car off track.

Lando clearly overtook while off track which is a slam dunk penalty.

[Beri]

Well, Albon managed to get penalties in the same way for two drivers. With this in mind, it was clear and cut to me that Norris would get the penalty too.

[Ali_G]

+ 5 sec for both.

It’s this. 5 sec for Verstappen for pushing Lando off. 5 sec for Lando as he should have given the place back.

[F1Frog]

Follow the rules as written. Penalise both.

Max clearly braked too late to stay on track so even if he was ahead at the apex and can arguably force the outside car off track the moment he leaves the track himself it is a moot point and becomes forcing another car off track.

Lando clearly overtook while off track which is a slam dunk penalty.

Actually this is a very good response. I agree. It’s still a mess but this is the most consistent thing to do.

[DJH63]

Follow the rules as written. Penalise both.

Max clearly braked too late to stay on track so even if he was ahead at the apex and can arguably force the outside car off track the moment he leaves the track himself it is a moot point and becomes forcing another car off track.

Lando clearly overtook while off track which is a slam dunk penalty.

The decision essentially confirms they did come to the same result as if they’d penalised both. Verstappen would’ve got +5 and Norris +10 and they netted it out at only +5 for Norris as Verstappen also left the track.

[jonklug]

I think it's a harsh penalty on Lando, but covered exactly by the rules. On Max it's tough to say, Sainz didn't get one yesterday for essentially doing the same with Leclerc in that same corner if I remember correctly. So probably no. 

[Flyhigh]

Norris dug his own by the outstanding lame start  and poor defense as usual and then being in a car 1.5s faster for over 10 laps behind Max and not making a basic pass stick, or basically Montoya Max´arse which would be all to his advantage regardless. Max just losing the position to Norris would mean less 1 point for the whole weekend, They touching and Max DNFing like he was so ready to do and Norris managing to stay on track would have been jackpot for Norris. Norris being so behind on points had much less to lose, all of this proposition was so clearly in favor of Norris being aggressive is not even funny.

Yes I am frustrated by his lack of attitude, I admit, imagine how Max feels when he sees Norris now, like hello son, just call me daddy please. such a discrepancy in mental and tenacity fortitude, can´t ask FIA to bail him out. He tried to make a pass 5 meters off the track to avoid touching Max like he was the one leading the championship in the final race and had all the lose...why.. so frustrating... 

I got tickets for the Brazilian GP, expensive... was hoping to see a little more interesting battle coming in.. Norris just doesnt have it unfortunately. You can´t be so afraid of touching in this modern day of racing is part of the game.... Wish Leclerc was on that Mclaren. 

Edited by Flyhigh, 20 October 2024 - 22:04.

[Myrvold]

The FIA official decision says it better than anyone else could. It also confirms consistency with the Gasly decision.

 

Except there is one difference when it comes to the mention of a second car involved.

[ClubmanGT]

It’s this. 5 sec for Verstappen for pushing Lando off. 5 sec for Lando as he should have given the place back.

 

I think it should have been a penalty for both.

But a requirement to leave space for an overtaking car on the outside would be a huge departure from what has been acceptable for decades.

We all want to see that rule changed, but it's the rule now. 

[sofarapartguy]

It's a bit pity that you have to adjust the rulebook because one driver just abuses it.

 

But the moment Max leaves the sport racing is going to get so much cleaner. I just don't see any other driver with such antics especially with newcomers. 

Edited by sofarapartguy, 20 October 2024 - 22:09.

[krea]

With Verstappen having the apex, it wasn’t more than a strike for leaving track. While Norris indeed gained an advantage with leaving track.

[ClubmanGT]

It's a bit pity that you have to adjust the rulebook because one driver just abuses it.

 

But the moment Max leaves the sport racing is going to get so much cleaner. I just don't see any other driver with such antics especially with newcomers. 

 

Nah, this has been going on for a long, long time. 

 

[Ali_G]

I think it should have been a penalty for both.
But a requirement to leave space for an overtaking car on the outside would be a huge departure from what has been acceptable for decades.
We all want to see that rule changed, but it's the rule now.

It was the official rule a few years back (you had to give space if the outside car was half way up on your car). It caused a furore on here when it was implemented. No idea when they got rid of this.

[sofarapartguy]

Nah, this has been going on for a long, long time. 

 

 

Well there is a huge difference where Montoya clearly made a mistake and missed breaking point. And gravel trap helped to punish those kind of mistakes.

 

While Max is doing his dive bombs constantly and on purpose. 

Edited by sofarapartguy, 20 October 2024 - 22:16.

[Timorous]

The decision essentially confirms they did come to the same result as if they’d penalised both. Verstappen would’ve got +5 and Norris +10 and they netted it out at only +5 for Norris as Verstappen also left the track.

Per the Tsunoda document forcing a car off track is also 10s so they both should have had 10s penalties.

So no, the stewards did not bet it out at all.

[jonklug]

It's a bit pity that you have to adjust the rulebook because one driver just abuses it.

 

But the moment Max leaves the sport racing is going to get so much cleaner. I just don't see any other driver with such antics especially with newcomers. 

 

Sainz literally did it yesterday and everyone cheered. 

[ClubmanGT]

Well there is a huge difference where Montoya clearly made a mistake and missed breaking point. And gravel trap helped to punish those kind of mistakes.

 

While Max is doing his dive bombs constantly and on purpose. 

 

Montoya definitely did this deliberate to edge out Schumacher, he just overcooked it. 

 

Pretending like this approach to racing arrived with Max is just plain wrong. It's been like this for years.  

[rodlamas]

Oscar was punished yesterday for doing what Max did.

[Ali_G]

Montoya definitely did this deliberate to edge out Schumacher, he just overcooked it.

Pretending like this approach to racing arrived with Max is just plain wrong. It's been like this for years.

That was pretty bad by Montoya. Went deep into the gravel. He was nowhere close to parking it on the exit.

[Flyhigh]

It's a bit pity that you have to adjust the rulebook because one driver just abuses it.

 

But the moment Max leaves the sport racing is going to get so much cleaner. I just don't see any other driver with such antics especially with newcomers. 

Lol...can imagine this same phrase being said in 1985 by some regarding Senna....   you better grab a chair my friend for this "gentleman clean" race you fansy. This is not the Polo club...  

Edited by Flyhigh, 20 October 2024 - 22:24.

[FLB]

The FIA needs permanent stewards. The problem isn't whether they they penanlize or not; it's the insconsistency, IMHO.

[CharlesWinstone]

What caused the situation in the first place is the big run off which made it possible for Lando to go around the outside and back on track not alongside Max but even in front. This never can be acceptable. Like it or not and we can discuss it all day long. The stewards applied the rules and the penalty is correct.
That said, the team could have prevented a penalty if they had told Lando to give the place back. Or did they think Lando could gap Max 5 seconds.

[jonklug]

While Max is doing his dive bombs constantly and on purpose. 

 

Dive bombs are fine, and trying to use the rules to your advantage is the smart thing to do. I think Lando shouldn't have been as tentative in his overtaking attempts, he should have cleanly gotten through by being closer at the start of the DRS straight which he was going to be anyway had he ducked right behind Max. His defense into T1 showed that he also likes to be quite aggressive and at the very limit of the rules, so I don't see a problem really, this is a nice fight for a world championship after all. 

[jonpollak]

He shoulda given it back straight away.
Pit wall was too chicken to tell him….. or something ?

Jp

[LB]

Both should have been penalised it even says in stewards brief that car1 forced 4 off the track

[baku]

The FIA needs permanent stewards. The problem isn't whether they they penanlize or not; it's the insconsistency, IMHO.

well, the 'being ahead of the apex' rule is one of the most consistantly applied rules to be honest. The stewards applied the rules perfectly in the Max Lando situation.

[jonpollak]

"sofa rap art guy”
Did I read that screen name right?

Jp

[FirstnameLastname]

Didn’t Russell get a penalty for ‘forcing’ a car off the track earlier in the same race?

(Which I don’t agree with at all… if they don’t touch, there’s nothing forced about it)

But where’s the consistency? *shrug*

[ClubmanGT]

Didn’t Russell get a penalty for ‘forcing’ a car off the track earlier in the same race?

(Which I don’t agree with at all… if they don’t touch, there’s nothing forced about it)

But where’s the consistency? *shrug*

 

He was the overtaking car and didn't leave space on the outside. Different situation.  

[ClubmanGT]

The FIA needs permanent stewards. The problem isn't whether they they penanlize or not; it's the insconsistency, IMHO.

 

Not making an overtake by going off track is one of the few rules they managed to consistently enforce. 

Edited by ClubmanGT, 20 October 2024 - 22:34.

[krea]

Didn’t Russell get a penalty for ‘forcing’ a car off the track earlier in the same race?

(Which I don’t agree with at all… if they don’t touch, there’s nothing forced about it)

But where’s the consistency? *shrug*

Russell was behind Bottas at the apex before pushing him out

[Muzzyf1]

If he gave it back straight away he would have got him back easily

[Button4life]

Russell was behind Bottas at the apex before pushing him out

Doesn’t this show how flawed the rule is. If Russell didn’t break as hard as he did and went off track, he would’ve kept the position. Poor driving is literally rewarded because of this rule.

[TomNokoe]

Similar to Brazil 2021, we haven't seen the incident from Verstappen's onboard camera because FOM were broadcasting his rear-view camera at the time of the incident. I want to see his front-facing camera to see how far ahead Lando was before the braking zone.

[noriaki]

He was the overtaking car and didn't leave space on the outside. Different situation.  

 

Why is it a different situation? They arrive side by side at the corner, it's the same thing in my boojs.

Either you demand they leave each other space or you don't, but make it clear for the drivers and be consistent with the application of rules all race, please. Today this did not happen.

[Button4life]

Similar to Brazil 2021, we haven't seen the incident from Verstappen's onboard camera because FOM were broadcasting his rear-view camera at the time of the incident. I want to see his front-facing camera to see how far ahead Lando was before the braking zone.

Still can’t send pictures for whatever reason. But this should show it: https://www.reddit.c...a1/s/kMj6rJbJ85

Norris was almost a full car length ahead.

[krea]

Doesn’t this show how flawed the rule is. If Russell didn’t break as hard as he did and went off track, he would’ve kept the position. Poor driving is literally rewarded because of this rule.

I mean what’s your larger point? Russell pushed another driver out and wasn’t even ahead of Bottas at the apex.

[Button4life]

I mean what’s your larger point? Russell pushed another driver out and wasn’t even ahead of Bottas at the apex.

He wasn’t ahead because he tried to make the corner. He would’ve been ahead at the apex if he didn’t bother trying to make the corner like Max today and wouldn’t have gotten a penalty. Russell basically got punished by trying to make a clean overtake.

[jonklug]

Still can’t send pictures for whatever reason. But this should show it: https://www.reddit.c...a1/s/kMj6rJbJ85

Norris was almost a full car length ahead.

 

The rule isn't who is ahead before the corner

[TomNokoe]

Still can’t send pictures for whatever reason. But this should show it: https://www.reddit.c...a1/s/kMj6rJbJ85

Norris was almost a full car length ahead.

 

Agreed, but Max's onboard camera will be the definitive answer. The stewards wouldn't have had access to this because it has to be downloaded post-race. Once it was released, Mercedes presented it as "new evidence" and tried to protest at Qatar. I wonder if McLaren will try something similar.

[TennisUK]

Similar to Brazil 2021, we haven't seen the incident from Verstappen's onboard camera because FOM were broadcasting his rear-view camera at the time of the incident. I want to see his front-facing camera to see how far ahead Lando was before the braking zone.

Brazil 2021 was more exaggerated but it’s the same principle. Had Max not left the track as well it might be possible to argue this wasn’t the case. He did similar in Saudi 2021, too - which probably the worst (and most obviously cynical£ driving standards Max has ever deployed in a race.

[Bliman]

The rule isn't who is ahead before the corner

But isn't it the apex that counts? Who is saying what the apex exactly is?