27 replies to this topic

[juicy sushi]

So, some people may know of this, others won't.  But in 1999 Porsche had been cooking up an LMP car for Le Mans.  And it disappeared.  SportsCar365 just published an article about it today because after 25 years, Porsche have actually fired it up and got it running again.  A vintage race car that technically is brand new:  https://sportscar365...es-most-elusive

 

For some extra history of this car there's Mulsanne Mike's excellent write-up about the car:  https://www.mulsanne...orschelmp1.html

 

While the car is not famous, the motor in it has a very interesting history.  Originally designed in 1992 as a 3.5 litre F1 V10, it never raced, but was enlarged to 5.5 litres, and was in the back of this.  Then, with nothing else to do, it went into the Carrera GT.  Then they chopped 2 cylinders off, shrank it to 3.4 litres, and it was in the back of the RS Spyder LMP675.  Then they attached a whole lotta batteries to it and it was powering the 918 Spyder.  And now it's on the verge of winning the IMSA GTP championship and WEC title in the same year after they added a couple of turbos and put it in the back of the 963.  For an engine that's not the flat 6, it's a hell of a legacy.

 

Edited by juicy sushi, 23 October 2024 - 20:36.

[krapmeister]

Yet another reason to hate Porsche Cayennes...

[LolaB0860]

The first two that always come to my mind when discussing stillborn projects are

 

Corvette LMP1/GT1 EVO

 

https://www.corvette...That-Never-Was/

If you remember, in 2007 the ACO (the organization that governs Le Mans) was looking to combine the GT1 and LMP1 classes into the single “Evo” class. However, some LMP1 teams balked at the idea and so the EVO rules were eventually shelved. However, during the time the EVO was being considered, Pratt & Miller developed a model for the proposed Evo class.

 

 

Koenigsegg CCGT GT1

 

https://www.topgear....-car-sold-ps33m

Apparently the CCGT took three years to hand-build by a crack team of Koenigsegg engineers led by Dag Bölenius, and in 2008 was tested by Loris Bicocchi. Unfortunately the ACO and FIA changed the regulations for the-then GT1 class – homologation production numbers jumped from 20 cars over several years to 350 per year – putting an end to Koenigsegg’s la Sarthe ambitions.

[Dan333SP]

That Corvette LMP concept looks nearly identical to the eventual Corvette DP that raced in Grand Am and the merged IMSA

[Dan333SP]

Ferrari F50 GT1 also comes to mind for this subject. I was lucky enough to see it on track at Cavallino Classic 20ish years ago, brilliant noise and a bit louder and deeper than my namesake 333SP.

[LolaB0860]

That Corvette LMP concept looks nearly identical to the eventual Corvette DP that raced in Grand Am and the merged IMSA

But that DP Corvette set was just switchable body panels on top of existing Coyote/Riley/Dallara chassis, the EVO car would've been new P&M factory car from strach

Edited by LolaB0860, 24 October 2024 - 14:43.

[Dan333SP]

But that DP Corvette set was just switchable body panels on top of existing Coyote/Riley/Dallara chassis, the EVO car would've been new P&M factory car from strach

 

True, just interesting to me that they probably modeled the body panels on the older LMP concept.

[F1matt]

Is it really 25 years since the Porsche project? I feel old!

 

 

Can I throw in the Ferrari 637 Indycar project from 1986? Enzo was having one of his many spats with FISA and he threatened to leave F1 to try and win the Indy 500. A fine looking machine in my humble opinion.

 

https://www.ferrari....in-the-indy-500

[Dan333SP]

Still wonder how this thing would have fared against the Audi R8 in 2000/2001. The Audi was an all time great car, so I have to think Porsche would have been on the back foot and the rules certainly favored lower displacement turbo motors at the time. 

[Henri Greuter]

So, some people may know of this, others won't.  But in 1999 Porsche had been cooking up an LMP car for Le Mans.  And it disappeared.  SportsCar365 just published an article about it today because after 25 years, Porsche have actually fired it up and got it running again.  A vintage race car that technically is brand new:  https://sportscar365...es-most-elusive

 

For some extra history of this car there's Mulsanne Mike's excellent write-up about the car:  https://www.mulsanne...orschelmp1.html

 

While the car is not famous, the motor in it has a very interesting history.  Originally designed in 1992 as a 3.5 litre F1 V10, it never raced, but was enlarged to 5.5 litres, and was in the back of this.  Then, with nothing else to do, it went into the Carrera GT.  Then they chopped 2 cylinders off, shrank it to 3.4 litres, and it was in the back of the RS Spyder LMP675.  Then they attached a whole lotta batteries to it and it was powering the 918 Spyder.  And now it's on the verge of winning the IMSA GTP championship and WEC title in the same year after they added a couple of turbos and put it in the back of the 963.  For an engine that's not the flat 6, it's a hell of a legacy.

 

 

 

If it is possible to enlarge an engine from 3.5 liter into a 5.5 liter without major modifications?????

 

Then something was entirely wrong with that design as a 3.5 liter F1......

[Dan333SP]

If it is possible to enlarge an engine from 3.5 liter into a 5.5 liter without major modifications?????

 

Then something was entirely wrong with that design as a 3.5 liter F1......

 

I think what happened here is they recycled the design architecture and assemblies with new heads/block, rather than boring out the actual F1 engine. 

[juicy sushi]

I think what happened here is they recycled the design architecture and assemblies with new heads/block, rather than boring out the actual F1 engine. 

That was my understanding as well, as I can't really see them just boring out a 7-year old block in a CNC machine.  

[milestone 11]

That was my understanding as well, as I can't really see them just boring out a 7-year old block in a CNC machine.

There's another article here, but it doesn't throw any light. I have some books which include details, I'll look tomorrow. https://www.stuttcar...orsche-lmp2000/

[Nathan]

The 5.5 V10 was it's own design, areas it shared/influenced with the 3.5 I believe are bore spacing, valve angles, ports, combustion chamber and various layout details such as water inlets/outlets and ancillary layout.

[Dan333SP]

Probably pretty similar story here to how the F50 V12 in the road car and the aborted GT car were based on the architecture of the 1990 F1 V12, but with completely unique components to get from 3.5L in F1 form to 4.7L in road/GT form. The 333 engine may have been more of a true "bored out" version of the F1 engine as it was just a half liter increase over the F1 motor. 

[Nathan]

I don't mean to knit-pick, let's go with 'stroked out'.  The cylinder is where the expensive development happens, so keeping that architecture is where it starts.  For these they basically get a new, taller block with more room for rod throw.

 

Since we are talking about         

 

Edited by Nathan, 25 October 2024 - 02:24.

[Myrvold]

Is it really 25 years since the Porsche project? I feel old!


Can I throw in the Ferrari 637 Indycar project from 1986? Enzo was having one of his many spats with FISA and he threatened to leave F1 to try and win the Indy 500. A fine looking machine in my humble opinion.

https://www.ferrari....in-the-indy-500

"Words - Ross Brown"
Heh.

[ArnageWRC]

What if TTE's ingenious 'turbo gate' hadn't been discovered until 1996? How would the 1995 WRC season have looked?  And staying in the WRC, in 1998 McRae actually led both the last two rounds; Australia with one proper stage remaining when his turbo went, and RAC when leading into mid afternoon service on the Monday, the engine gave up the ghost......1 probable win, and a possible win went into thin air - which probably cost him the title that year.

 

Back in the day when BBC 5Live had live updates from WRC events - I stayed up on the Saturday night/Sunday early hours playing CM Rally on the Playstation.....as McRae challenged and eventually led Australia; was absolutely gutted when the news of the turbo failure came in. 

[Nathan]

I think it was a shame that during perhaps the last golden age of sports car racing (94-98) all Ferrari had was an aged F40 and the F50 GT1 never made it past the early testing stage.

 

Another unfortunate dropped ball was the Nissan R390.  Perhaps because it was not so much a Nissan project? On the outside it just needed a nose job. 

 

Edited by Nathan, 01 November 2024 - 18:48.

[juicy sushi]

As a final bit of a treat for this, Porsche have some video of Timo Bernhard taking the LMP 2000 around Weissach at speed: https://www.instagra...XFsaXdzdXUzZWk5

[Henri Greuter]

I think it was a shame that during perhaps the last golden age of sports car racing (94-98) all Ferrari had was an aged F40 and the F50 GT1 never made it past the early testing stage.

 

Another unfortunate dropped ball was the Nissan R390.  Perhaps because it was not so much a Nissan project? On the outside it just needed a nose job. 

 

 

 

R390 was no so much a matter of having dropped the ball. First year it was too new und not enough testing done. Second year it was outgunned by the Toyota GT1 that stretched the rules for GT1 to the very utmost.

[Stephane]

As a final bit of a treat for this, Porsche have some video of Timo Bernhard taking the LMP 2000 around Weissach at speed: https://www.instagra...XFsaXdzdXUzZWk5

 

Funny how this "nah, it doesn't exist, never has, never will" car is now sort of a nostalgia marketing tool.

[Beri]

As a final bit of a treat for this, Porsche have some video of Timo Bernhard taking the LMP 2000 around Weissach at speed: https://www.instagra...XFsaXdzdXUzZWk5

Lets pause for a second to realize that back in the late 90s, this 9R3 had a MANUAL gearbox with a clutch PEDAL. Clearly shown in this video by the movements of Bernhards leg. Whereas the 1998 winning Le Mans car, the Porsche GT1, had a semi automatic one.

 

R390 was no so much a matter of having dropped the ball. First year it was too new und not enough testing done. Second year it was outgunned by the Toyota GT1 that stretched the rules for GT1 to the very utmost.

 

I also think that the ball wasnt dropped on this. Because TWR and Nismo really went all the way. With the chassis even having been molded around the molds of the Jaguar XJR15, the engine being completely redone in purpose of this specific car, the main purpose of the design philosophy being to fit into the GT1 loophole and the fact they were fielding drivers like Van Poele, Brundle, Taylor, Muller and Patrese, showing absolute dedication in my book.

[PayasYouRace]

I don't mean to knit-pick, let's go with 'stroked out'. The cylinder is where the expensive development happens, so keeping that architecture is where it starts. For these they basically get a new, taller block with more room for rod throw.

Since we are talking about

This is a good thread for stroking out…

[PayasYouRace]

"Words - Ross Brown"
Heh.

Ah, we’ve finally found him.

[Myrvold]

Ah, we’ve finally found him.

 

I have to admit, I am slightly disappointed that you are the only one who noticed/reacted to it 

[Dan333SP]

Lets pause for a second to realize that back in the late 90s, this 9R3 had a MANUAL gearbox with a clutch PEDAL. Clearly shown in this video by the movements of Bernhards leg. Whereas the 1998 winning Le Mans car, the Porsche GT1, had a semi automatic one.
 

 

It's a semi-automatic box like its contemporaries, he's shifting with paddles on the steering wheel, definitely not a manual H-pattern. He is using the clutch pedal for each shift which is most likely just to be as gentle on the drivetrain as possible because it's a 1 of 1 car and engine. I think most/all prototypes of that era still had a clutch pedal for getting off the line/out of the pits, and once they were moving they'd shift without the clutch. 

[Dan333SP]

That said, I do wonder when the last top-level Le Mans car went from a 3rd pedal clutch system to steering wheel paddle-operated clutches like we see today. Maybe mid '00s? 

 

It's surprisingly hard to find pictures of the footwells of these cars. I did find a motorsport magazine article where they drove a peugeot 908 from 2009 and it still had a 3rd pedal- 

 

"There’s a clutch pedal, but I’ll only be using it when leaving the pits and pulling up outside the garage, so the fact it’s straining my left calf muscle to depress it is of little concern. There are paddles for gearchanges and 15 assorted buttons and rotary switches to control the car’s vital functions. A small display screen and a horizontal row of shift lights sit centrally."

 

Also found a track test article about the 2014 Le Mans winning R18 and by then they'd switched to a paddle clutch arrangement-

 

"I step on the sidepod and slide into the cockpit. Their seat choice is perfect, securing me firmly from shoulders to thigh. The foot box is level with the seat bottom, high and small, bisected, all brake pedal left and all throttle right, left-foot brake only, hand clutch, no dead pedal."

Edited by Dan333SP, Yesterday, 15:55.