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March 751 chassis conundrum ...


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#1 Jon Saltinstall

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Posted 24 October 2024 - 12:28

I'd welcome any informed input into a conundrum that has been bothering me while I have been putting together the "statistics" section of Lella Lombardi's biography.

 

All contemporary reports and record state that Lella drove March chassis 751/2 from the 1975 Race of Champions to the French GP inclusive; she was then given 751/1 for the rest of the season while Hans-Joachim Stuck was allocated 751/2. 

 

However, we have the well-known story of the cracked bulkhead in Lella’s car which caused handling problems that she complained about, but which were ignored until Ronnie Peterson complained of the same problems in it and were only confirmed when the monocoque was stripped after his shunt in it in the 1976 Belgian GP. Records confirm that this was 761/3.

 

That problematic car was 751/2, which was shunted by Lella in practice at Monaco 1975 (this caused the damage to the bulkhead) and with which she struggled thereafter. Peterson’s 1976 mount was 761/3, which records confirm was built up around the tub of Lella’s old 1975 car.

 

751/2 was written off by Stuck in Austria 1975. So it couldn’t have been the base monocoque on which 761/3 was built. In any case, records confirm the original 761/3 was built up around the monocoque of 751/1. It was this monocoque that was later stripped and found to have the cracked rear bulkhead. 

 

Hans-Joachim Stuck tells me he never drove Lella’s car, and that he could not have done so anyway; he did not fit in it because he was too tall. His car had a higher roll hoop and the pedals were further away, beyond the adjustment point for Lella’s car.

 

So the only conclusion I can reach is that the chassis plates of 761/2 and 761/1 were swapped after the French Grand Prix, and the car that Lella drove from the British GP to the Italian GP (where she had another big shunt) was still the original 761/2. The car written off in Austria by Stuck was therefore actually 751/1.

 

A plausible reason for the swapping of the chassis plates might have been Mosley/Herd trying to persuade Lella that she had been given a different car, in response to her repeated complaints about the poor handling of her regular chassis.

 

It would also explain why her performances didn’t improve much when she  was given a “different” chassis, as she was actually in the same one she’d had all along.

 

Unfortunately, most of the protagonists here are gone; of those who remain, I have been trying for months to contact Keith Leighton, with no success and have just had a bounce back from Dave White's email saying it's no longer active. 

 

All informed comment would be much appreciated!



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#2 BRG

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Posted 24 October 2024 - 16:17

Not informed comment, but I would put my money on Mosley being economical with the truth.



#3 Mallory Dan

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Posted 24 October 2024 - 19:05

Jon, from the above it looks like you too are mixing up the 751s and the 761s! 



#4 Jon Saltinstall

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Posted 24 October 2024 - 19:16

Jon, from the above it looks like you too are mixing up the 751s and the 761s! 

 

Not in the least, Dan; three of the 761s were built from 751 tubs.

 

Sorry if it's looking complicated; in summary - 

 

751/2 was Lella's car for most of 1975. Official records show that from the British GP onwards she then had 751/1 for the rest of the year.

751/2 was written off by Stuck in Austria in 1975.

761/3 (the car used by Lella in Brazil 1976 and then by Peterson until Belgium 1976) was built around the monocoque of Lella's 1975 car.

The records show that 761/3 was built with the monocoque from 751/1.

However, when 761/3's tub was stripped after Peterson crashed it in Belgium in 1976, it was found to have the cracked rear bulkhead that resulted from Lella's shunt at Monaco in 1975.

That means it must have been the monocoque from 751/2, NOT from 751/1.

So the implication is that the chassis plates of 751/2 and 751/1 were swapped before the British GP.

 

Hope that makes sense!


Edited by Jon Saltinstall, 24 October 2024 - 19:17.


#5 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 24 October 2024 - 20:04

After all my investigations, including many period magazines and some books, at present I have a slightly different set of numbers.
Including new cars that were issued with the chassis plate of the car they were replacing:
 
March 751-1:          Brambilla 75: ZA
March 751-1-2:       Lombardi 75: GB-NC, GB, D, A, I -> 761-3
March 751-2:          Lombardi 75: E, MC. 741-1 -> 751-4 used as backup tub for Lombardi, taken to meetings, crated up, later 761-5
March 751-2-2:       Lombardi 75: B, S, NL, F. Stuck 75: GB, D, A. Used as T-car by Brambilla 75: S, NL, F 
March 751-2-3 [6]: Stuck 75: I, USA. Used as T-car by Brambilla 75: USA -> 761-2
March 751-3:          Brambilla 75: E, MC, B, S, NL, F, GB, D, A, CH, I, USA. 751-3 severely damaged in practice! and cannibalised into '76 cars
March 751-4:          Donohue 75: GB, D, A, CH(DNA). 
 
March 761-1:          Brambilla 76: BR, ZA, ROTC, USAW, E, B, MC
March 761-1-2:       Brambilla 76: S, F, GB, D(DNS). 761-1-2 used the old 761-3 tub
March 761-1-3:       Brambilla 76: A. 761-1-3 built up from various bits and pieces from previous Brambilla crashes and tub no. 10
March 761-1-4:       Brambilla 76: NL, I, CDN, USA, J. Kozarowitzky 77: E(DNA), B(DNA), S, GB, D(DNA). Bleekemolen 77: NL. Also known as 761-11 or 761-8. 761B-B2 = ex 761-1-4 (=10)
March 761-2:          Stuck 76: BR, ZA, USAW, E, B, MC, S, F, GB, D, A, NL, I, CDN, USA, J. Brambilla 76: Int'l. 761-2 = ex751-6 (=2-3)
                               Lunger 77: ZA, USAW, E. 2-4-0-1 = ex 761-2
March 761-3:          Lombardi 76: BR. Peterson 76: ZA, USAW, E, B. 761-3 = ex751-1-2
March 761-3-2:       Peterson 76: MC, S, F, GB, D
March 761-3-3:       Peterson 76: A(DNS), NL(T), I(DNS). 761-3-3 is tub no. 8
                               Hayje 77: ZA, ROTC, E, MC, B, S, GB(DNA), A, NL. Sutcliffe 77: GB
March 761-4:          Merzario 76: USAW, E, B, MC
March 761-4-2:       Merzario 76: S, F, GB, D(DNA). Brambilla 76: D
March 761-4-3:       Oppitzhauser 76: A(RE). 761-4-3 = tub no. 9
                                De Drijver 77: GB
March 761-5:          Henton 77: ROTC, E, GB, A. De Drijver 77: B
March 761-6:          Peterson 76: D, A, NL, CDN, USA, J. 761-6 = tub no. 7. 761B-B1 = ex 761-6
March 761-7A:        Neve 77: E
March 761-7A2:      Neve 77: B, S, F, GB, D, A, NL, I, USA, CDN
 
I know there are a few inconcistencies in this list, but at the moment, with the sources I have, this is the best I can make of it.
 
Does it agree with your observations and conclusions?

Edited by Henk Vasmel, 24 October 2024 - 20:10.


#6 Jon Saltinstall

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 11:25

This is helpful, thanks Henk. What I will need to establish is whether all the cars that were given new names (e.g. 751-1-2 etc.) received completely new monocoques or were simply patched-up versions of existing ones. I guess there will be a mix of the two. I keep coming back to the theory that the underlying monocoque which had the (hidden) cracked rear bulkhead that created the handling problems that Lombardi and Peterson both described in exactly the same way must have been the same one, in some form or other; whether it was patched, repaired, rebadged, whatever!



#7 PeterElleray

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 11:37

This is helpful, thanks Henk. What I will need to establish is whether all the cars that were given new names (e.g. 751-1-2 etc.) received completely new monocoques or were simply patched-up versions of existing ones. I guess there will be a mix of the two. I keep coming back to the theory that the underlying monocoque which had the (hidden) cracked rear bulkhead that created the handling problems that Lombardi and Peterson both described in exactly the same way must have been the same one, in some form or other; whether it was patched, repaired, rebadged, whatever!

Don't discount the possibility of TWO rear bulkheads being 'cracked' in different chassis - especially as they would have been of the same  design and probably recycled already...



#8 Jon Saltinstall

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 12:17

Good point, Peter.

 

Another possibility I had considered was that 761/3 was indeed built up around the monocoque of the genuine 751/1, and that the rear bulkhead of 751/1 had been cracked in Lella’s shunt at Monza, rather than 751/2’s bulkhead being cracked earlier in the year at Monaco. However, Lella never raced 751/1 again after Monza (she was in a Williams at Watkins Glen) and the behaviour of her car that she described repeatedly after Monaco tallies exactly with the complaints that Peterson made about 761/3 up until Belgium 1976. 



#9 LittleChris

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 12:26

 

Hans-Joachim Stuck tells me he never drove Lella’s car, and that he could not have done so anyway; he did not fit in it because he was too tall. His car had a higher roll hoop and the pedals were further away, beyond the adjustment point for Lella’s car.

 

 

 

Ronnie was pretty tall so wouldn't the same apply ?



#10 DCapps

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 13:54

This is one of the topics that I managed to get Mike Lawrence laughing so hard that we agreed to segue to other topics that would later be known as Alternate Facts...



#11 Jon Saltinstall

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 16:20

This is one of the topics that I managed to get Mike Lawrence laughing so hard that we agreed to segue to other topics that would later be known as Alternate Facts...

 

I'm taking it that no conclusions were possible then, Don?  :drunk:



#12 Doug Nye

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 17:50

What does Allen Brown of the remarkable <oldracingcars.com> make of this?

 

In period it was plain that if there was a paying customer available, March would cheerfully take advantage and re-cycle tubs with updates provided amongst the kit of parts for the customer to assemble, or in some instances clandestinely as their own people completed a runnable rebuild.  Few clients asked questions.  Most were sufficiently shrewd to know not to...

 

It was also plain to outsiders - i.e. the press - that plenty of chassis plate juggling was going on - yes, even more frequently than had become 'the norm' for most teams and most constructors - but it was deemed acceptable especially where privateers or rent-a-drivers were concerned. Their principle concern was purely to have a runnable car on the right day at the right place to earn some start, prize and maybe bonus money...  Despite any shortcomings in true talent, they were all racers and precisely what they were racing was irrelevant (at least until it broke).

 

DCN



#13 sstiel

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 18:00

I'd welcome any informed input into a conundrum that has been bothering me while I have been putting together the "statistics" section of Lella Lombardi's biography.

 

All contemporary reports and record state that Lella drove March chassis 751/2 from the 1975 Race of Champions to the French GP inclusive; she was then given 751/1 for the rest of the season while Hans-Joachim Stuck was allocated 751/2. 

 

However, we have the well-known story of the cracked bulkhead in Lella’s car which caused handling problems that she complained about, but which were ignored until Ronnie Peterson complained of the same problems in it and were only confirmed when the monocoque was stripped after his shunt in it in the 1976 Belgian GP. Records confirm that this was 761/3.

 

That problematic car was 751/2, which was shunted by Lella in practice at Monaco 1975 (this caused the damage to the bulkhead) and with which she struggled thereafter. Peterson’s 1976 mount was 761/3, which records confirm was built up around the tub of Lella’s old 1975 car.

 

751/2 was written off by Stuck in Austria 1975. So it couldn’t have been the base monocoque on which 761/3 was built. In any case, records confirm the original 761/3 was built up around the monocoque of 751/1. It was this monocoque that was later stripped and found to have the cracked rear bulkhead. 

 

Hans-Joachim Stuck tells me he never drove Lella’s car, and that he could not have done so anyway; he did not fit in it because he was too tall. His car had a higher roll hoop and the pedals were further away, beyond the adjustment point for Lella’s car.

 

So the only conclusion I can reach is that the chassis plates of 761/2 and 761/1 were swapped after the French Grand Prix, and the car that Lella drove from the British GP to the Italian GP (where she had another big shunt) was still the original 761/2. The car written off in Austria by Stuck was therefore actually 751/1.

 

A plausible reason for the swapping of the chassis plates might have been Mosley/Herd trying to persuade Lella that she had been given a different car, in response to her repeated complaints about the poor handling of her regular chassis.

 

It would also explain why her performances didn’t improve much when she  was given a “different” chassis, as she was actually in the same one she’d had all along.

 

Unfortunately, most of the protagonists here are gone; of those who remain, I have been trying for months to contact Keith Leighton, with no success and have just had a bounce back from Dave White's email saying it's no longer active. 

 

All informed comment would be much appreciated!

 

 

Hello Jon,

 

Keith Leighton is on Facebook and Kevin Guthrie may be able to help you get in touch with him.



#14 Jon Saltinstall

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 18:49

Thanks all.

Doug - I’m corresponding with Allen separately, but in summary, the ORC site is congruent with Motio Sport, Autocourse, Motoring News, official entry lists etc in referring to the cars only as 721-1, 721-2, etc rather than with the subdivisions (721-1-2 etc) that Henk details.

Simon - you may know that Kevin is half of the BHP Publishing partnership that’s producing the book with me, so I’ve already explored that avenue!

#15 sstiel

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 18:58

Thanks all.

Doug - I’m corresponding with Allen separately, but in summary, the ORC site is congruent with Motio Sport, Autocourse, Motoring News, official entry lists etc in referring to the cars only as 721-1, 721-2, etc rather than with the subdivisions (721-1-2 etc) that Henk details.

Simon - you may know that Kevin is half of the BHP Publishing partnership that’s producing the book with me, so I’ve already explored that avenue!

 

Ah. Well Keith Leighton is on Facebook.

 

Paul Fearnley may know as well.



#16 Jon Saltinstall

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 21:18

Thanks all.

Doug - I’m corresponding with Allen separately, but in summary, the ORC site is congruent with Motor Sport, Autocourse, Motoring News, official entry lists etc in referring to the cars only as 751-1, 751-2, etc rather than with the subdivisions (751-1-2 etc) that Henk details.

Simon - you may know that Kevin is half of the BHP Publishing partnership that’s producing the book with me, so I’ve already explored that avenue!

Edited by Jon Saltinstall, 25 October 2024 - 21:19.


#17 DCapps

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 21:54

I'm taking it that no conclusions were possible then, Don?  :drunk:

 

Mike's comments, when not laughing about all this, were very much aligned with what Doug wrote. Plus, as Mike suggested, not much of anyone really gave a Flying Wet Great Australian Adjective (to quite Mike...) about it as long as money changed hands, cars appeared ("...often miraculously..."), and then somehow car &/or driver made the grid (or at least the paddock...). My impression before my conversations with Mike was that all this was sheer lunacy and afterwards that it was utter, complete lunacy. It was, we agreed, much like the Maserati mechanics in the race shop shifting engines around and fiddling with the paperwork so as to ensure that a CAR appeared when necessary and needed. Don't ask too many questions, simply accept what happens to happen...



#18 Michael Clark

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Posted 26 October 2024 - 01:19

Saturday lunchtime here in NZ - I've just finished watching Liam in P2 from Mexico and so a chance to log onto TNF over a sandwich.

i'd been following this thread, as much as anything because as soon as i hear reference to March F1 chassis numbers, my mind always turns to my old mate Dr Mike Lawrence and his comments about the 'brand new' chassis Frank Williams was sold for Patrick Neve in 1977.

i hadn't had a chance to update myself since last evening but when i saw the activity on this thread, i decided to go straight here because news from Mexico will filter through eventually. I was delighted to see Mike Lawrence referred to - clearly Don enjoyed his unique on the planet first-hand too. i stayed with Mike for Goodwood 08 and it remains a memorable experience.

#19 davidsalt

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Posted 26 October 2024 - 11:28

Mike Lawrence- there’s a name from the TNF past.
Does anyone know if he’s still around?

Connoisseur of ‘real’ pubs and Shakespeare scholar IIRC?

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#20 Vitesse2

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Posted 26 October 2024 - 11:37

Mike Lawrence- there’s a name from the TNF past.
Does anyone know if he’s still around?

Connoisseur of ‘real’ pubs and Shakespeare scholar IIRC?

Unfortunately 'Dr Mike' left us four years ago.

 

https://www.gomw.co....ence-1942-2020/



#21 sstiel

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Posted 26 October 2024 - 14:00

Jon, 

 

Steve Holter may be able to help too.



#22 DCapps

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Posted 26 October 2024 - 16:21

One thing that Mike did make a point of to me was that SOMEONE at March ALWAYS knew which tub, which engine, and which gearbox was which and who had it at any given moment.

The issue for the tubs was simple: What did it need to be and where at THAT particular moment...and did the check clear.

 

For what little it is worth, I decided to simply go with whatever it was that Mike and others might come up with and accept that part of the zeitgeist.

 

As an aside, from what Paul told me, sorting out the March conundrum produced more than a few migraines for the kind folks at FOR...



#23 PeterElleray

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Posted 26 October 2024 - 16:26

Good point, Peter.

 

Another possibility I had considered was that 761/3 was indeed built up around the monocoque of the genuine 751/1, and that the rear bulkhead of 751/1 had been cracked in Lella’s shunt at Monza, rather than 751/2’s bulkhead being cracked earlier in the year at Monaco. However, Lella never raced 751/1 again after Monza (she was in a Williams at Watkins Glen) and the behaviour of her car that she described repeatedly after Monaco tallies exactly with the complaints that Peterson made about 761/3 up until Belgium 1976. 

Just wondering if you were able to track down any first hand quotes from Lella herself about this issue, and if she ever had it explained to her by either MM or RH ? The only first hand source i have ever seen was from one of that pair, i think RH. It seemed to make 'a good story'. I do wonder... 

 

Regarding Ronnie and his complaints about his original 761, does his form after Belgium 'really'  show a dramatic upturn? I know where he qualified in Monaco, but he did the same with the old 72 a year before. And I know he won in Monza, and took pole in Zandvoort, but he had his share of fairly ordinary races aswell after Belgium. I'm not convinced. A first hand account from one of the mechanics would do that for me.



#24 Jon Saltinstall

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Posted 26 October 2024 - 16:54

There are a number of interviews given by Lella to Autosprint in which she refers to complaints she’d made to the March team about the handling problems of her car post-Monaco 1975. (Poor turn in followed by snap oversteer). Ronnie made exactly the same comments to different magazines in the races up to and including Belgium 1976. Robin Herd later admitted in interviews with Motor Sport and others that they hadn’t listened to Lella and regretted that they’d probably wrecked her F1 career.
Lella later told Autosprint that her only complaint about her F1 experience was that nobody listened to her feedback about the car.

#25 PeterElleray

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Posted 26 October 2024 - 17:03

There are a number of interviews given by Lella to Autosprint in which she refers to complaints she’d made to the March team about the handling problems of her car post-Monaco 1975. (Poor turn in followed by snap oversteer). Ronnie made exactly the same comments to different magazines in the races up to and including Belgium 1976. Robin Herd later admitted in interviews with Motor Sport and others that they hadn’t listened to Lella and regretted that they’d probably wrecked her F1 career.
Lella later told Autosprint that her only complaint about her F1 experience was that nobody listened to her feedback about the car.

yes, ok. The Herd interviews i'm familiar with, also Ronnie's complaints, but you can find similar remarks from him about most of his cars! Quite a bit of it was the consequence of his natural driving style - i'm sure you've read Peter Warr's comments and others from ex TL personel. I'm just thinking it would be easy to add 2 and 2 and get 5, given the cast of characters that the information about the cracked bulkhead originated from. It might be absolutely true about the cracked bulkhead and the handling issues, but it would still be handy to get a first hand account of somebody at March who was involved. That would satisfy my rather world weary 'heard this one before' scepticsm, the inevitable consequence of 30 odd years exposure to racing drivers, racing cars, and the non technical press.... edited to add 'especially as you haven't been able to make the chassis ancestry stack up'....


Edited by PeterElleray, 26 October 2024 - 17:05.


#26 Jon Saltinstall

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Posted 26 October 2024 - 19:13

I agree with you 100% Peter; I’ve been in a mission for nearly a year to find a surviving March employee from the era who can cast any light on the matter! As yet I’ve not found anyone who can (will?) clarify my thought processes.
No wonder Don is laughing ….

#27 PeterElleray

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Posted 26 October 2024 - 19:25

Understood. It would make your job a lot easier. I get involved with, and enjoy, quite a few of these sort of things, rarely on here anymore, but on fb, and only with people who know what they are on about. Without exception one of us will produce a story that we all read about 50 years ago in AS or MN as teenagers , and took as gospel, and bat it around a bit, and 9 times out of ten it doesn't hold water, knowing what we know now, and having experienced the workings of the sport from the inside over a prolonged period and made enough contacts to ask the right people. Occasionally we get to what we now think is the real story (we hope!), but more often than not the trail just peters out. I hope you can find a credible first hand source, i feel your pain (!). 



#28 sstiel

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Posted 26 October 2024 - 20:07

I agree with you 100% Peter; I’ve been in a mission for nearly a year to find a surviving March employee from the era who can cast any light on the matter! As yet I’ve not found anyone who can (will?) clarify my thought processes.
No wonder Don is laughing ….

Maybe Gary Critcher could help



#29 Steffen

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Posted 26 October 2024 - 21:59

I found this topic quite interesting, so I checked a few reports in books I have, and they very much fit to the records on ORC.

There is one question I got:
Is it certain that 751-2 was the car with the cracked bulkhead?
I am asking, because Brambilla also used this car three times as a T-car. And he even drove it during practice at all three events. Here are the times I have found:

Sweden (Brambilla 1:27,065 vs. Lombardi 1:28,687)

Holland (Brambilla 1:22,77 vs. Lombardi 1:23,99)

France (Brambilla 1:49,55 vs. Lombardi 1:52,97)

With the exception of Sweden where Brambilla was two and a half seconds off the time set in his 751-3, he was within half a second.
If 751-2 had a problem with the bulkhead, shouldn't Brambilla's time be much slower? And wouldn't he agree with Lombardi about handling problems?

Isn't it more likely that Lombardi's complains refer to 751-1?
This car was only used by her from the British Grand Prix onwards and would (according to ORC) later become 761-3. First used by Lombardi, then by Peterson.

I actually wonder why 751-1 was only used at South Africa before disappearing until summer.



#30 Jon Saltinstall

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Posted 27 October 2024 - 06:20

It’s a good theory, Steffens. However, Lella raced 751/1 at the two non-championship races on Britain between the South African and Spanish GPs. She did not report any of the handling problems with the car that she complained about after Monaco.
So if the cracked bulkhead was actually the result of Brambilla’s crash in South Africa, surely that would have shown up at Brands Hatch and Silverstone (and she was pretty racy in the international Trophy).
As Henk has detailed, contemporary reports say Lella’s car at the Race of Champions and International Trophy (751-1-2) had been built up from parts of the car Brambilla crashed at Kyalami. (751-1) So I need to know if that included a new monocoque. If that is the case, could the car she was given for the British GP have been built around an original, damaged 751-1 monocoque? That might explain the difference in the car’s behaviour. But if that’s the case, what then happened to the “new” 751-1-2 tub? It must have been rebadged as something else and re-used.So there’s still some chassis plate swapping involved.
The plot thickens!

#31 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 27 October 2024 - 14:33

To explain a bit more about the numbers I used, like for instance 751-1-2. Of course this was never the official title of the car. The car was considered to be 751-1, which was on the chassis plate, on the entry form and therefore on the official and other published entry lists, as long as they mentioned chassis numbers (not all did).

the -2 suffix came later after careful (I hope) investigation into which car or tub it actually was. Some insightful journalists mentioned this kind of numbers already when the car was current. Later on the whole picture was completed, with still the possibilities of errors. What I listed in my earlier post was as good as I can get it, with the possibility that some corrections are still necessary. One of the reasons I gave the list, is that maybe one of you here will point out an error or a correction.

The -2 (and -3  and -4) suffix intend to point at a physically different tub, that was identified by March (or others) as the car in question. So there are 4 different tubs that carried the ID 761-1.

The purpose of this all is that we are informed about a change in tub, so we do not have to worry about inconsistencies in looks, performance or anything else across the change of tub.

Also, it is clear that temporarily discarded tubs later on got a second life, under a different ID. Complicates things even more, but when you are aware of it, it opens lines of investigation again.



#32 PeterElleray

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Posted 27 October 2024 - 15:40

Henk - i agree with your method of i.d ing 'tubs' rather than 'cars'. It's the one i use aswell, i think it may have been started by Jenks in the 70's? Anyway, i tried to apply it to your original, extensive , list, but i couldn't make the tub's work in chronological order of when they were first seen. Are you on fb? I am there, and could explain a bit further on messenger. The private message facility here is not so good...



#33 Doug Nye

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Posted 27 October 2024 - 15:48

The only reliable way to establish individual monocoque tub identities from that period is to analyse the photographic record.  Most images are utterly useless if rivet patterns are obscured, indistinct, or not within the shot's composition.  The best are body off, nose panel off, engine cover removed or showing tub interior.  In those days of riveted aluminium construction, whatever design drawings might have specified could not disguise the fact that essentially those panels were shaped and fastened by hand, and with hand tools. "Hand crafted, underwater" was the saying.

 

Obviously, study of several images is necessary before one "learns the code", but once a pattern relating to one particular tub has been identified it's often as unmistakeable as seeing a familiar face. The trap is when crash damage has been repaired, and a surviving tub has been patched up.  But usually review of a number of images of it on that occasion can reveal the extent of the repair, with the old familiar patterns remaining visible beyond its periphery.

 

It's reading the photo record for the Ferrari 312Bs which (eventually) revealed the truth of the Maranello team's mis-numbering of at least two of those wonderful cars upon their sale ex-works - swapping which Ferrari Classiche today still adamantly deny.

 

DCN


Edited by Doug Nye, 27 October 2024 - 15:54.


#34 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 27 October 2024 - 16:51

The only reliable way to establish individual monocoque tub identities from that period is to analyse the photographic record.  Most images are utterly useless if rivet patterns are obscured, indistinct, or not within the shot's composition.  The best are body off, nose panel off, engine cover removed or showing tub interior.  In those days of riveted aluminium construction, whatever design drawings might have specified could not disguise the fact that essentially those panels were shaped and fastened by hand, and with hand tools. "Hand crafted, underwater" was the saying.

 

Obviously, study of several images is necessary before one "learns the code", but once a pattern relating to one particular tub has been identified it's often as unmistakeable as seeing a familiar face. The trap is when crash damage has been repaired, and a surviving tub has been patched up.  But usually review of a number of images of it on that occasion can reveal the extent of the repair, with the old familiar patterns remaining visible beyond its periphery.

 

It's reading the photo record for the Ferrari 312Bs which (eventually) revealed the truth of the Maranello team's mis-numbering of at least two of those wonderful cars upon their sale ex-works - swapping which Ferrari Classiche today still adamantly deny.

 

DCN

I agree, that this used to be a very reliable method, if not a quick one. It's like a person's unique fingerprints. Unfortunately Carbon Fiber tubs are not so easy to identify visually. But for older cars, it remains quite usable. Provided that there are also period photos, and not only pictures of survivors, half a century after the fact.
Also, I consider this a job where the so called "Artificial Intelligence" methods can be of use to us. On the other hand. I think AI is a bit of a misnomer, and I usually call it the Brute Force method. Just feed it with relevant photos, sharp enough to see the relevant detail and have the computer crunch away. It won't of course tell you the identity of the tub, but it can show you "Equal or Diffferent" and help you to zoom in on the decisive areas.

 

Unfortunately, I don't have access to these methods, so I have to rely on the second best, where reliable journalists have direct access to the drivers that may make remarks like: "They made me a completely fresh car for this race, so I will do well" THese things then have to be combined from different sources, compared for reliability, and put next to the relevant entry list. Of course it is fraught with traps, but for instance for ATS, I could rely on German/Swiss reports Motor Sport Aktuell, who provided lots of detail, missed by other nationalities.
And if you go to the most famous case of fluent identities (Maserati 250F), there are also reports from people who have dived into it for years. Jenks is the first one I could mention, but there are several more.



#35 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 27 October 2024 - 16:55

Henk - i agree with your method of i.d ing 'tubs' rather than 'cars'. It's the one i use aswell, i think it may have been started by Jenks in the 70's? Anyway, i tried to apply it to your original, extensive , list, but i couldn't make the tub's work in chronological order of when they were first seen. Are you on fb? I am there, and could explain a bit further on messenger. The private message facility here is not so good...

Yes I am on facebook, not with any fancy name, but just "Henk Vasmel", so easy to find.



#36 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 27 October 2024 - 17:02

Henk - i agree with your method of i.d ing 'tubs' rather than 'cars'. It's the one i use aswell, i think it may have been started by Jenks in the 70's? Anyway, i tried to apply it to your original, extensive , list, but i couldn't make the tub's work in chronological order of when they were first seen. Are you on fb? I am there, and could explain a bit further on messenger. The private message facility here is not so good...

I agree that there are inconsistencies. For instance, March 751-2-3 in period has also been referred to as 751-6. But it is almost certainly the 7th tub that appeared, unless in the previous ones, there was a case of reusing a discarded tub, that we haven't identified yet.
Also the higher numbered 761 chassis are not waterproof. For instance there is confusion between -10 and -11 and even -8 (See 761-1-4). Needs cleaning up.



#37 PeterElleray

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Posted 27 October 2024 - 17:24

henk, i'll drop you a post on messenger. 



#38 PeterElleray

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Posted 27 October 2024 - 17:33

The only reliable way to establish individual monocoque tub identities from that period is to analyse the photographic record.  Most images are utterly useless if rivet patterns are obscured, indistinct, or not within the shot's composition.  The best are body off, nose panel off, engine cover removed or showing tub interior.  In those days of riveted aluminium construction, whatever design drawings might have specified could not disguise the fact that essentially those panels were shaped and fastened by hand, and with hand tools. "Hand crafted, underwater" was the saying.

 

Obviously, study of several images is necessary before one "learns the code", but once a pattern relating to one particular tub has been identified it's often as unmistakeable as seeing a familiar face. The trap is when crash damage has been repaired, and a surviving tub has been patched up.  But usually review of a number of images of it on that occasion can reveal the extent of the repair, with the old familiar patterns remaining visible beyond its periphery.

 

It's reading the photo record for the Ferrari 312Bs which (eventually) revealed the truth of the Maranello team's mis-numbering of at least two of those wonderful cars upon their sale ex-works - swapping which Ferrari Classiche today still adamantly deny.

 

DCN

yep. been there, done that ! But it's not so easy with the March 751-761 series. There are relatively few hi definition images with the body off IN PERIOD avaliable ON LINE ! With something along the lines of the Lotus 49 (for which Mike Oliver did an outstanding job of detective work) or the 25 there is a lot more material to study. So it's very frustrating, and i've been through this loop a few times now, ending up with more questions than i started out with.



#39 Jon Saltinstall

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Posted 27 October 2024 - 17:34

I found this topic quite interesting, so I checked a few reports in books I have, and they very much fit to the records on ORC.

There is one question I got:
Is it certain that 751-2 was the car with the cracked bulkhead?
I am asking, because Brambilla also used this car three times as a T-car. And he even drove it during practice at all three events. Here are the times I have found:

Sweden (Brambilla 1:27,065 vs. Lombardi 1:28,687)

Holland (Brambilla 1:22,77 vs. Lombardi 1:23,99)

France (Brambilla 1:49,55 vs. Lombardi 1:52,97)

With the exception of Sweden where Brambilla was two and a half seconds off the time set in his 751-3, he was within half a second.
If 751-2 had a problem with the bulkhead, shouldn't Brambilla's time be much slower? And wouldn't he agree with Lombardi about handling problems?

Isn't it more likely that Lombardi's complains refer to 751-1?
This car was only used by her from the British Grand Prix onwards and would (according to ORC) later become 761-3. First used by Lombardi, then by Peterson.

I actually wonder why 751-1 was only used at South Africa before disappearing until summer.

 

It's an interesting one, Steffen.

 

Lella complained about the handling issue in Belgium, the next race after Monaco, and again at successive events. She didn't receive 751/1 until the British GP.

 

You make a fair point. In Sweden, Brambilla was on pole (some say questionably) and he was clearly "on it" all weekend. As for the other two races, there may also be questions around when the track was at its quickest when they went out to practice in the same car. Although Brambilla and Lella were firm friends, the Monzese was having his best season in F1 and was determined to show his team mate who was No.1. 

 

Lella used 751-1 at both the Race of Champions and the International Trophy before she was given 751-2 for Spain. Quite what happened to it between then and the British GP is anyone's guess. And if Henk's understanding is correct, that 751-1 and 751-1[2] are separate monocoques, then which one is the British GP car based on? They both started out wearing the chassis plate 751-1 (the subdivision is a device adopted by historians, not by the manufacturer or in official race records), so it's not beyond the realms of possibility that the "original" 751-1 tub was repaired and re-emerged in another guise, or even as 751-1 again....



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#40 Tim Murray

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Posted 27 October 2024 - 18:46

Although Brambilla and Lella were firm friends …


(very O/T, sorry)

My friends and I were strolling through the paddock at the Silverstone GP meeting in 1975 when we spotted Vittorio coming towards us. Suddenly there was this blood-curdling banshee screeching noise behind us which stopped us dead in our tracks. We turned round to find that Lella had been walking a few paces behind us and had started bawling good-natured banter at Vittorio. They stopped and chatted for a while, in Italian of course, and although we had no idea what they were saying, it was obvious that they got on very well.

#41 DCapps

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Posted 27 October 2024 - 19:27

I agree with you 100% Peter; I’ve been in a mission for nearly a year to find a surviving March employee from the era who can cast any light on the matter! As yet I’ve not found anyone who can (will?) clarify my thought processes.
No wonder Don is laughing ….

 

Jon, the last thing I would EVER do is laugh! Like the others here, Mike had gone in circles and finally sensed the apparent absurdity of it.

Plus, we had other motor sport history absurdities to discuss as well...

 

As for what Doug suggests, it was the gazillions of Barrie's photos and the other information that we were able to begin sorting it out re: the 250F.

People may continue to disagree with me regarding  the issue of how to specify identity, but goodness did Barrie ever provide how to define Overkill when it came to documentation (think about trying to compare rivets and louvers and dents and tubes...).



#42 Jon Saltinstall

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Posted 27 October 2024 - 20:10

(very O/T, sorry)
My friends and I were strolling through the paddock at the Silverstone GP meeting in 1975 when we spotted Vittorio coming towards us. Suddenly there was this blood-curdling banshee screeching noise behind us which stopped us dead in our tracks. We turned round to find that Lella had been walking a few paces behind us and had started bawling good-natured banter at Vittorio. They stopped and chatted for a while, in Italian of course, and although we had no idea what they were saying, it was obvious that they got on very well.


Indeed they did, Tim. There are several of the interviews Lella gave in which she refers to their friendship. And some of the banter appears in the biog .

#43 Tim Murray

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Posted 27 October 2024 - 20:19

Looking forward to it, Jon.

#44 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 28 October 2024 - 05:17

Ronnie was pretty tall so wouldn't the same apply ?

Not all that hard to bolt on a taller roll hoop and move the pedals forward. 

Lella was quite little,, 5'1?



#45 Jon Saltinstall

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Posted 28 October 2024 - 20:15

Not all that hard to bolt on a taller roll hoop and move the pedals forward. 

Lella was quite little,, 5'1?

 

5'2", Lee, but I take your point.



#46 PeterElleray

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Posted 28 October 2024 - 20:32

5'2", Lee, but I take your point.

yes, but Hans is over 6'4" and Ronnie was apparently only 5'10" ( ?? i thought he was taller and elsewhere he is said to have been just over 6'?). So there would come a point where Hans would indeed run out of pedal box travel, or have his knees up under the dashboard. 


Edited by PeterElleray, 28 October 2024 - 20:35.


#47 LittleChris

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Posted 28 October 2024 - 21:49

I thought Ronnie was 6 - 6'1.  I've tried to find a picture of him with Hans for comparison but failed to do so.  Hopefully DCN will see this as he interviewed Ronnie so may be able to provide a better estimate 



#48 Jon Saltinstall

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 06:39

Ronnie was 5’10” - not quite as lofty as I’d thought…

#49 Doug Nye

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 08:21

I am/was 5' 11' and Ronnie stood taller than me by at least an inch or two...as I recall it.  I would have thought he was at least 6' 1", when he stood up straight - he was often hunched and thoughtful, or languidly sprawled out on pit counter, or hotel or home sofa.  A coolly charming, engaging man - and of course a stupendously talented driver.

 

Here in this Revs Digital Library shot from the 1972 Sebring 12-Hours he is standing tall, with Tim Schenken and (relatively little) Ferrari team director Peter Schetty.

 

temp-Imageh-Pg-G0-R.jpeg

 

DCN


Edited by Doug Nye, 29 October 2024 - 08:28.


#50 BRG

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Posted 29 October 2024 - 09:04

One of  my very few claims to fame, or at least, brushes with fame, was having a chat with Ronnie Peterson and James Hunt at Brands Hatch.  We were standing together.  I am 6' 3" and I was an inch or so taller than either of them, so I would say Ronnie was about 6'.  In those days, racing drivers were often normal sized, not the midgets they have become - both in stature and often in character - since then.


Edited by BRG, 29 October 2024 - 09:04.