63 replies to this topic

[Charlieman]

Overall height is a poor indicator of the physical characteristics which make it up. I recall reading about a 1950s US air force study about air crew (fit men, 20-30 years mostly) and cockpit layout. It turned out there was a huge variation in limb and trunk length, which made scientific design of seating and controls no better than trial and error. 

 

There was another army study of weight and body volume, showing that almost all of the sample had a relative density greater than 1.0. If you don't float in fresh water, you are far from unusual!

[Jon Saltinstall]

Ronnie was 5’10” - not quite as lofty as I’d thought…

 

The perils of quick reference check, rather than proper research! Thanks to Doug and BRG for challenging. Ronnie was actually 6'1".

 

As previously cited, Hans-Joachim Stuck is/was 6'4".

Edited by Jon Saltinstall, 29 October 2024 - 09:41.

[PeterElleray]

Overall height is a poor indicator of the physical characteristics which make it up. I recall reading about a 1950s US air force study about air crew (fit men, 20-30 years mostly) and cockpit layout. It turned out there was a huge variation in limb and trunk length, which made scientific design of seating and controls no better than trial and error. 

 

There was another army study of weight and body volume, showing that almost all of the sample had a relative density greater than 1.0. If you don't float in fresh water, you are far from unusual!

The 'percentile data' that was once used extensively throughout the racing world when creating manakin's for cockpit sizing (once 2D, now 3D and embedded in the CAD sytem inuse) was derived from that 1950's study. It is now well out of date as people have expanded. All F1 teams simply measured their drivers and made their own manakins, at Arrows we had a 'Boutsen' manakin, a 'Berger' manakin and a 'Surer' manakin in 1984/5.

 

Refering back to my earlier post, i think you would have to be a very strange shape indeed to be 6'4" tall male, and have the same length of leg as a woman of 5'1"

Edited by PeterElleray, 29 October 2024 - 17:17.

[PeterElleray]

The perils of quick reference check, rather than proper research! Thanks to Doug and BRG for challenging. Ronnie was actually 6'1".

 

As previously cited, Hans-Joachim Stuck is/was 6'4".

you obviously found the same erronious ref that i found initially, which is why i added that it didn't sound right. 

[LittleChris]

There's a photo of Ronnie, James and Tony Brise together ( easily found on Google) and it looks like Tony was tallest by about an inch then Ronnie by a couple of inches over James. I believe Tony was 6ft 3

Edited by LittleChris, 29 October 2024 - 19:27.

[funformula]

All F1 teams simply measured their drivers and made their own manakins, at Arrows we had a 'Boutsen' manakin, a 'Berger' manakin and a 'Surer' manakin in 1984/5.

 

 

Not only the height had to be taken in account, also the size of the hips might cause problems. With Boutsen, Berger and Danner all being taller than 6ft the Arrows A8 would probably provide enough space for me as I am 6`4"...at least that´s what I thought. My length might´ve not been the problem but I will never know as I aiready failed to squeeze my hips into it, the monocoque was too tight in that section (...and no, with 93kg I´m not overweight just wide hips   ).

The same happened to me with another Danner car, a 1993 Lola IndyCar, but this time it was a simple task to made it fit as it didn´t require alternations to the monocoque.

[PeterElleray]

Not only the height had to be taken in account, also the size of the hips might cause problems. With Boutsen, Berger and Danner all being taller than 6ft the Arrows A8 would probably provide enough space for me as I am 6`4"...at least that´s what I thought. My length might´ve not been the problem but I will never know as I aiready failed to squeeze my hips into it, the monocoque was too tight in that section (...and no, with 93kg I´m not overweight just wide hips   ).

The same happened to me with another Danner car, a 1993 Lola IndyCar, but this time it was a simple task to made it fit as it didn´t require alternations to the monocoque.

Yes, and you will see 'dimples' that doubled as fuel cell insertion aperture plates on earlier aluminium tubs. Not impossible with carbon but i don't recall seeing one done. I have the original chassis scheme for the A8, it wasn't unusually narrow by any means, you must have a big ..... posterior. The A8 never took Danner's measurements into account, he arrived towards the end of its life cycle. It was essentially drawn around Boutsen. If Thierry would fit then so would Marc. Then Marc got replaced by Gerhard before the start of the season, who fortunately fitted into the Boutsen sized cockpit. So when Marc turned up a year late he fitted easily.

[funformula]

... it wasn't unusually narrow by any means, you must have a big ..... posterior.

 

But nowhere near the Kardashian frame 

[Lee Nicolle]

Not only the height had to be taken in account, also the size of the hips might cause problems. With Boutsen, Berger and Danner all being taller than 6ft the Arrows A8 would probably provide enough space for me as I am 6`4"...at least that´s what I thought. My length might´ve not been the problem but I will never know as I aiready failed to squeeze my hips into it, the monocoque was too tight in that section (...and no, with 93kg I´m not overweight just wide hips   ).

The same happened to me with another Danner car, a 1993 Lola IndyCar, but this time it was a simple task to made it fit as it didn´t require alternations to the monocoque.

I did see a pic of an Arrows tub being widened to suit an Aussie ex F1 Champion. With a big hammer. Cant to that with plastic cars!

[PeterElleray]

But nowhere near the Kardashian frame 

i wouldn't like to say. 

[funformula]

i wouldn't like to say. 

 

I would agree being slightly wider than Giovanna Amati 

Regarding the topic of this thread... I have no idea which chassis the March in the background is.

 

https://i.postimg.cc...5-161105904.jpg

Edited by funformula, 31 October 2024 - 19:04.

[PeterElleray]

 

Regarding the topic of this thread... I have no idea which chassis the March in the background is.

 

 

 

 You are not the only one....

[70JesperOH]

Inspired by this thread I did some updates on my 1976 F1 GP season and realised that the March mechanics must have been at work 24-7 to keep three, sometimes four cars running for the likes of Ronnie Peterson, Hans Joachim Stuck, Vittorio Brambilla and at the start of the season Arturo Merzario. To my understanding all had a reputation for being hard chargers to a degree. In this Lella Lombardi qualified and finished the first GP of the year for March. For some statistics for the 16 races, with cause of retirement from forix for my simplicity:

 

55 entries made it to the weekend, which resulted in...

53 starts and...

2 DNQs (Merzario).

17 times the drivers took the checkered flag, Ronnie winning in Italy, with another...

2 that ended as classified finishes, despite not running at the flag.

34 DNFs (36 if you count the 2 above), including...

11 due to accidents shared evenly among the three main drivers (Peterson 4, Brambilla 4, Stuck 3)

10 or so due to engine related issues, with...

the rest to other issues.

 

With 751s updated to 761s and new 761s build, I'm not surprised about the confusion of what's what regarding chassis identity. The 11 accident DNFs would have been of varying degrees of severity, but then there would be accidents from practice and private tests. From the few written accounts I have access to the 761 suffered from brake issues and problems of getting heat into the tyres, which would only contribute to the number of accidents.

 

For 1977 March was down to a two car team, with Alex Ribeiro and Ian Scheckter as drivers with no results, and essentially ended March's first chapter in F1.

 

Just realising my 1975 notes need update too.

 

Jesper

[Allen Brown]

What does Allen Brown of the remarkable <oldracingcars.com> make of this?

 

Allen thinks that trying to make March stories align with observable facts is much like trying to find reindeer hoofprints on your roof when you wake up on Christmas morning.  It's best to just enjoy the story and not look to hard.